Fulfilled vs. Abolished

[SpiritPsalmist]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

.....comparing what Yeshua did for us to us making a car payment???? "We" did not make any payments. He did. What we do in response to Him is out of gratitude, not debt fulfillment.

 

[dkbwarrior]

I am seeing two extremes here in this thread. And both conclusions are wrong. Though some of the word study is great.

First, Jesus didn't destroy the law, He fulfilled the law. That means, as was pointed out by another poster, that He obeyed it precisely. Now, when we become born again, and are baptized into His body, His fulfillment of the law is imputed unto us, FOR ALL TIME, because we have become Him, we are the body of Christ.

Therefore, we are no longer required to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law, which, Paul said, is fulfilled in one word, "Thou shalt love thy neigbor as thyself, because love works no ill to its neighbor".

Truly, though, this was always the case as one can see from the example of Jesus disciples plucking and eating corn on the sabbath. The law was never intended to be followed to the letter, but by the spirit. This was the mistake of the Jewish leaders, many of which wrote the Torah, and who Jesus opposed. As Jesus explained, David broke the letter of the law when he ate of shewbread when he was running from Saul, and it was lawful for him. And Jesus said it was lawful for his disciples to pluck corn on the sabbath, and Jesus healed on the sabbath. In fact, the law of God shows us how impossible it is to codify behavior. No matter how involved the law is, letter of the law can never cover a persons motives and state of heart for all situations.

The law is there to lead us to Christ (Gal. 3). The world is under the law, and it will be under it until the end, and then the law will judge them. That is why Jesus said, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall be removed from the law.

But for the Christian, the law has been imputed as fulfilled to each of us, and it is only the spirit of the law, to love your nieghbor as yourself, that we are to aspire to. We don't have to worry about which day is the sabbath, or what time the sabbath begins, 6 or 7 o'clock, (this is all letter of the law bondage), but yet we still obey the sabbath, because every day is the sabbath, it is a state of the heart now. We don't have to worry about how much is the tithe, or whether it should be on the net or the gross, or should we tithe student loans, and/or tax returns, or make up missed tithes, (this too is all letter of the law bondage), yet we still tithe, because all our money belongs to God, not just 10%, it is now a state of the heart.

I could go on and on with each law, there is the letter of it, and the spirit of it. If you cant see what I am saying, then mabey you dont have a revelation of grace at all. I would spend some time in prayer, seeking the real living Jesus, if that is the case.

Peace...

 

[Torah]

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy,/ abolish but to fulfil.

I find this amazing! You take one word out of context, look up, part of the meaning of the word “fulfil” and claim that the law is “Abolish”. 1 : to end the observance or effect of : ANNUL <abolish a law> destroyed.

And you make this claim even when it is in direct contradiction of what Jesus said in the sane verse.

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law”

How can you say Jesus abolished the Law, when right in front of you he said that he did NOT come to do away with the Torah.

And in fact I would like to point out that this lie is the same lie that Paul and some False witness were brought agents Stephen.

Acts 6: 8Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.
11Then they secretly persuaded some men to say (Liars), "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God."
12So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13They produced false witnesses(Liars), who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."
15All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

Acts 7: 1Then the high priest asked him, "Are these charges true?"

In other words, Is the lie that the Law is destroy /abolish true?

Here is Stephen chance to clear up the confusion we have today, All he has to say is “Yes” Jesus fulfilled the Law and it is abolished.

What does Stephen say?



....... Acts 7:51-8:3 Habe 9:30 2 chron 36:15 Matt 5:12

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears!(Open your ears) You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Isa 63:10
52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." Acts 6:13-14

WOW! Stephen just accused the Jewish religious leaders that they were not
“OBEYING” the torah.

54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses (Liars) laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Now this same “lie” is brought against Paul.

Acts 18:12-14

12While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him into court. 13"This man," they charged, (The Lie) "is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law."
14Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to the Jews, "If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you.
Acts 21:21-24

( the same Lie brought agents Paul) 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth ( not a lie) in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
Acts 23


1Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day." 2At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" 4Those who were standing near Paul said, "You dare to insult God's high priest?" 5Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written(In the Law) 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people. "[ Exodus 22:28]

Acts 24:13-14
13And they cannot prove to you the charges-[the lie] they are now making against me. 14However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect.(Judaism) I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Jesus did not come to destroy or abolish the Law, The problem is that most Christians look at scripture through the anti-Jewish thinking. This started from the first century,
[I have posted the history here] http://www.christianforums.com/t7375180-3/

this has been the Lie that continues to this day. And has been cared on throughout history until today.

 

[pinetree]

My brother... big mistake in your analogy.

If you pay off your debt, your debt is fulfilled. You still have the car....

Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law. The Law required death for sin, Jesus did that. The Law, however is still there.

Colossians 2

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Jesus did not lie when He said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matt 5:17)

He meant what he said.
Doesn't get any simpler.

Well,you forgot a little good ole diddy of a scripture my friend.

Who is the law for?

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

 

[map4]

I am seeing two extremes here in this thread. And both conclusions are wrong. Though some of the word study is great.

First, Jesus didn't destroy the law, He fulfilled the law. That means, as was pointed out by another poster, that He obeyed it precisely. Now, when we become born again, and are baptized into His body, His fulfillment of the law is imputed unto us, FOR ALL TIME, because we have become Him, we are the body of Christ.

Therefore, we are no longer required to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law, which, Paul said, is fulfilled in one word, "Thou shalt love thy neigbor as thyself, because love works no ill to its neighbor".

Truly, though, this was always the case as one can see from the example of Jesus disciples plucking and eating corn on the sabbath. The law was never intended to be followed to the letter, but by the spirit. This was the mistake of the Jewish leaders, many of which wrote the Torah, and who Jesus opposed. As Jesus explained, David broke the letter of the law when he ate of shewbread when he was running from Saul, and it was lawful for him. And Jesus said it was lawful for his disciples to pluck corn on the sabbath, and Jesus healed on the sabbath. In fact, the law of God shows us how impossible it is to codify behavior. No matter how involved the law is, letter of the law can never cover a persons motives and state of heart for all situations.

The law is there to lead us to Christ (Gal. 3). The world is under the law, and it will be under it until the end, and then the law will judge them. That is why Jesus said, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall be removed from the law.

But for the Christian, the law has been imputed as fulfilled to each of us, and it is only the spirit of the law, to love your nieghbor as yourself, that we are to aspire to. We don't have to worry about which day is the sabbath, or what time the sabbath begins, 6 or 7 o'clock, (this is all letter of the law bondage), but yet we still obey the sabbath, because every day is the sabbath, it is a state of the heart now. We don't have to worry about how much is the tithe, or whether it should be on the net or the gross, or should we tithe student loans, and/or tax returns, or make up missed tithes, (this too is all letter of the law bondage), yet we still tithe, because all our money belongs to God, not just 10%, it is now a state of the heart.

I could go on and on with each law, there is the letter of it, and the spirit of it. If you cant see what I am saying, then mabey you dont have a revelation of grace at all. I would spend some time in prayer, seeking the real living Jesus, if that is the case.

Peace...

Good post!

 

[Torah]

But if they are not abolished,then the emnity would still exist...

Peter knew that...

Acts 10:28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,[This is Church teaching to cut up Gods law, and do away with what they want]
that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile. [It was oral law / man made law, that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile]
{Show me in the “Tanach” where Jews were not to associate with Jews}
Here is what scripture [Tanach] says about how Gentiles are to be treated.

"alien": 1616 ger gare or (fully) geyr (gare); from *1481; properly, a guest; by implication, a foreigner:--alien, sojourner, stranger. (Gentile)

Exodus 12:19
For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born.

Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Exodus 23:12
"Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest and the slave born in your household, and the alien as well, may be refreshed.

Leviticus 16:29
"This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or an alien living among you-

Leviticus 17:8
"Say to them: 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice

Leviticus 17:10
" 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.

Leviticus 17:12
Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood."

Leviticus 17:13
" 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth,


Leviticus 18:26
But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,

Leviticus 19:33
" 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.

Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:2
"Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.

Leviticus 22:18
"Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'If any of you—either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel—presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering,

Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.' "

Numbers 9:14
" 'An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must do so in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for the alien and the native-born.' "

Numbers 15:15
The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD

Numbers 15:29
One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien.


Numbers 15:30
" 'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the disputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between one of them and an alien.

Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

Deuteronomy 16:14
Be joyful at your Feast—you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites, the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns.

---------
part 1

 

[pinetree]

highlighted the word 'unlawful' for you there Pinetree...

not that this word does not mean something in contradiction to the Torah as you seem to imply...

you're reading your theology through a translation again.... unlawful would be 'anomos'.... 'nomos' = law, with the 'a' to negate its meaning.

but that word is not used here... instead, 'athemitos', which is 'themitos' which means custom with the 'a' to negate its meaning...

so the verse should be rendered 'you yourselves know how against custom it is for a Jew to associate....

Secondly, the Jewish ceremonial laws did not seperate Jew and Gentile as the Torah explicitly says that the same Torah is for both Jew and Gentile that join the national life of Israel.

Steve

p.s. I corrected some of your spelling errors for you (but removed them from the overall quotation).

It was levitical law dude...read the post.

Why do you think that God gave Peter the vision?Then read chapter 11.

The Torah separated Jew from Gentile.

That is a fact,as my post clearly shows.

Now,there are prophecies in it that we would become one,but that did not happen until the new covenant,ratified by his blood,where the ceremonial laws were nailed to a tree,that separated Jew from Gentile.

That is why we have ephesians chapter 2!


Here is my previous post again.Peter said it,it is quite clear.

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, &#8220;You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..

 

[Torah]

Part 2
Joshua 8:33
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of MountGerizim and half of them in front of MountEbal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.

Joshua 8:35
There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read to the whole assembly of Israel, including the women and children, and the aliens who lived among them.

1 Chronicles 22:2
[ Preparations for the Temple ] So David gave orders to assemble the aliens living in Israel, and from among them he appointed stonecutters to prepare dressed stone for building the house of God.

Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.

*Ezekiel 14:7
" 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself.

*Ezekiel 22:7
6 " 'See how each of the princes of Israel who are in you uses his power to shed blood. 7 In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the alien and mistreated the fatherless and the widow. 8 You have despised my holy things and desecrated my Sabbaths.
*Ezekiel 47:22
You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.

Malachi 3:5
"So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.


As one can see, the Tanach does not teach that: Aliens, Gentiles, And “God-fearing [Acts 10:2]” were to be looked down on.

BUT! The Jewish leaders had created “Oral Laws” to keep Gentiles out.

Gentiles in Rabbinic Literature
In general, it was a well accepted fact that the nations were viewed by the Judaisms of the 1st Century as enemies at worst and a nuisance at best.
In the Rabbinic literature three terms are used commonly to depict the Gentile: idolaters, the wicked, and the enemies of Israel. The term "enemies of God" is used as a synonym for all three.[214] In the Rabbinic literature only two kinds of Gentiles exist: those who are idolaters, and those who become proselytes by disassociating themselves from their Gentile status and be&shy;coming Jewish.

214C. G. Montefiore and H. Loewe, A Rabbinic Anthology (Schocken, 1974), 556; cf. bBeitzah 16a; b.Ketuvot 13b-15a; b.B'rachot 28a; b.Yoma 75b.

The unlawful or levitical law [as you wish to call it] was Rabbinic teaching to keep [Sinful] Gentiles [sarcasm, Gal 2:15] out. With all the Scripture above, it is clear that the “unlawful” act posted in Acts 10: 28 was not Gods Law, but man made law.

Acts 10 was nothing more than getting the sect of Judaism back on track cornering Gentiles and becoming part of this sect called the “Way”.

 

[Torah]

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.I posted the Greek menaing already...

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

context

Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision"(By the Jew) (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.(of circumcision that has separated the Gentile from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer “foreigners and aliens”, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
And you Aliens / Gentiles did not have to follow the law of circumcision or to become a “Jew” [witch is Judaizeing] to become one of God's people.
In the context of all of this scripture it is clear that all of Torah is not abolished, but only the regulations of circumcision to the Gentile so he is no longer a foreigner and aliens, but fellow citizens with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

__________________

Acts 10:28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

Those were the Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.Moses..said it..

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

Also we have this...


Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
---
Again incontext

Col 2: 13 When you were &#65279;&#65279;dead &#65279;&#65279;in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He &#65279;&#65279;made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out &#65279;the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and &#65279;&#65279;He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is
written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

He didn't die to abolish the law. Nore did he nail the law to the cross. He nailed the long list of our sins against the law to the cross and died to forgive us, to wipe our slate clean. He forgave us by dying in our place not by abolishing the law.

The law remains, the penalty of breaking it doesn't. That does not mean that we are free to sin all we want. It means that we are obligated to live by the spirit and as it says in the verses above Ro 8: 4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The spiritual mans mind is subject to the law of God.

The law is still valid but the capital penalty for breaking it is gone, and replaced with mercy applied by his sacrifice.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy,/ abolish but to fulfil.

I find this amazing! You take one word out of context, look up, part of the meaning of the word &#8220;fulfil&#8221; and claim that the law is &#8220;Abolish&#8221;. 1 : to end the observance or effect of : ANNUL <abolish a law> destroyed.

And you make this claim even when it is in direct contradiction of what Jesus said in the sane verse.

&#8220;Think not that I am come to destroy the law&#8221;

How can you say Jesus abolished the Law, when right in front of you he said that he did NOT come to do away with the Torah.

Are you repsonding to me? If so, I don't think that you actually read my post because I said this:

I am seeing two extremes here in this thread. And both conclusions are wrong. Though some of the word study is great.

First, Jesus didn't destroy the law, He fulfilled the law. That means, as was pointed out by another poster, that He obeyed it precisely. Now, when we become born again, and are baptized into His body, His fulfillment of the law is imputed unto us, FOR ALL TIME, because we have become Him, we are the body of Christ.

The difference between what you and I are saying seems to be this, (correct me if I am wrong):

You say that Jesus fulfilled/obeyed the law, and now we are to fulfill it/obey it, ourselves also.

I am saying that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, and His righteousness has therefore been imputed to us, and as long as we are walking in love we are fulfilling the law:

11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
-Galatians 5:11-18

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Peace...

 

[pinetree]

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.I posted the Greek menaing already...

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility








context

Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision"(By the Jew) (that done in the body by the hands of men)&#8212; 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.(of circumcision that has separated the Gentile from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer &#8220;foreigners and aliens&#8221;, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
And you Aliens / Gentiles did not have to follow the law of circumcision or to become a &#8220;Jew&#8221; [witch is Judaizeing] to become one of God's people.
In the context of all of this scripture it is clear that all of Torah is not abolished, but only the regulations of circumcision to the Gentile so he is no longer a foreigner and aliens, but fellow citizens with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

__________________


Originally Posted by ContentInHim

But that was not in the Mosaic Law - it was acquired through additions of the Pharisees, not God!
It is all right in my post above..

Peter said it in acts,and it was Levitical law..Moses..

Acts 10:28And he said to them, &#8220;You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

Those were the Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.Moses..said it..

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

Also we have this...


Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Again incontext




Col 2: 13 When you were &#65279;&#65279;dead &#65279;&#65279;in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He &#65279;&#65279;made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out &#65279;the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and &#65279;&#65279;He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is
written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

He didn't die to abolish the law. Nore did he nail the law to the cross. He nailed the long list of our sins against the law to the cross and died to forgive us, to wipe our slate clean. He forgave us by dying in our place not by abolishing the law.

The law remains, the penalty of breaking it doesn't. That does not mean that we are free to sin all we want. It means that we are obligated to live by the spirit and as it says in the verses above Ro 8: 4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The spiritual mans mind is subject to the law of God.

The law is still valid but the capital penalty for breaking it is gone, and replaced with mercy applied by his sacrifice.

Simple facts....

The law stands.., BUT, BUT,it is not for the righteous!

Who is the law for?

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

The "law and the prophets" means the OT,so all Jesus was saying,was that he is not ending the OT in it's entirety.

But you omit this....

Luke 16:16
&#8220;The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.


Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,


You can post all those verses,but they don't negate a simple truth..

If you dont abolish the ceremonial laws,then the emnity STILL REMAINS,that is a fact.


And before you try that ole ordinances argument..see this..



Ephesians2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law (3551 nomos) of commandments (1785 entole,a commandment of God) contained in ordinances (1378 dogma), so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,


God's commandments were contained in the ordinances.


Colossians 2:14 really is self explnatory..

Notice a few verses down,it says Sabbath...hmmmm

Sounds like more than just a few local laws..huh

It says Sabbath.

One more time..a simple to understand word,and it's meaning.

Abolish.


Definition.:Katargeo 2673(abolishing)
1 to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed
from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one

Strongs&#8230;
Result of search for "2673":
2673. katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

PS..if you abolish circumcision,you gotta abolish then all...


Galatians 5:3
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

 

[pinetree]

ATTN:
A little mistake that my Torah observant friends seem to overlook is this..

They quote where Jesus says.."I have not come to abolish the law"

But they dont tell us that ..

When he said that,the wordage of law and the prophets meant,the OT,that is how they referred to it in their day...

Notice here,Jesus called the psalms,the law too..

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Here too..

John 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’


So,Jesus was saying,I am not getting rid of the OT,as a whole.

However,lets also see the rest of scripture.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Definition
Telos 5056
1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be
(always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end
of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)


We are not under law.

The "just shall live by faith".

 

[Torah]

Are you repsonding to me? No I did not read your post.If so, I don't think that you actually read my post because I said this:


The difference between what you and I are saying seems to be this, (correct me if I am wrong):

You say that Jesus fulfilled/obeyed the law, and now we are to fulfill it/obey it, ourselves also.

I am saying that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, and His righteousness has therefore been imputed to us, and as long as we are walking in love we are fulfilling the law:

11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
-Galatians 5:11-18

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Peace...

But I did read this one

The difference between what you and I are saying seems to be this, (correct me if I am wrong):

You say that Jesus fulfilled/obeyed the law, and now we are to fulfill it/obey it, ourselves also. What happen to W,W,J,D.
Jesus did more than obeyed the Torah. He brought it back into it’s proper place. Most people don’t understand that the religious leaders of Jesus day had added so much to the Torah,[and called it law] that the man made Law’s had become a burden on people. Jesus fought agents these things. An small Example of this is Matt 15:1-3. Today most Gentiles know nothing or very little of witch “Tradition of the elders” Jesus is speaking of. People today will say “See he’s doing away with all the Torah. This is not So!

I am saying that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, and His righteousness has therefore been imputed to us,
What is our Righteousness? Isa 64:6 says our Righteousness is like mistrial rags. We stand as law breakers 1 John 3: 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.{this is our righteousness) 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins.{this is his righteousness in us) And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.{breaking the Law) No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
and as long as we are walking in love we are fulfilling the law: This in no way does away with Gods Law. This is a common teaching to Sum up Gods law.
This is a summary of the 613 laws.

Psalm 15

2 He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from his heart 3 and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman, 4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the LORD, who keeps his oath even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury and does not accept a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.
Habakkuk 2:4 ".... the righteous will live by his faith

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.


1 John 4:21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother

[compare Deut 6:4-5 & Lev 19:18]

Shalom

 

[dkbwarrior]

But I did read this one

The difference between what you and I are saying seems to be this, (correct me if I am wrong):

You say that Jesus fulfilled/obeyed the law, and now we are to fulfill it/obey it, ourselves also. What happen to W,W,J,D.
Jesus did more than obeyed the Torah. He brought it back into it’s proper place. Most people don’t understand that the religious leaders of Jesus day had added so much to the Torah,[and called it law] that the man made Law’s had become a burden on people. Jesus fought agents these things. An small Example of this is Matt 15:1-3. Today most Gentiles know nothing or very little of witch “Tradition of the elders” Jesus is speaking of. People today will say “See he’s doing away with all the Torah. This is not So!

I am saying that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, and His righteousness has therefore been imputed to us,
What is our Righteousness? Isa 64:6 says our Righteousness is like mistrial rags. We stand as law breakers 1 John 3: 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.{this is our righteousness) 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins.{this is his righteousness in us) And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.{breaking the Law) No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
and as long as we are walking in love we are fulfilling the law: This in no way does away with Gods Law. This is a common teaching to Sum up Gods law.
This is a summary of the 613 laws.

Psalm 15

2 He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from his heart 3 and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman, 4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the LORD, who keeps his oath even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury and does not accept a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.
Habakkuk 2:4 ".... the righteous will live by his faith

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.


1 John 4:21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother

[compare Deut 6:4-5 & Lev 19:18]

Shalom

Thank you for the clarification.

Peace...

 

[pinetree]

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.I posted the Greek menaing already..

.

Excuse me..but if you dont abolish it,the hostility still remans..that is a fact.

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

context

Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision"(By the Jew) (that done in the body by the hands of men)&#8212; 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ

We are grafted into the PROMISE..not the LAW..

The law was a temporary thing,added 430 years later.

One in Christ

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called &#8220;the uncircumcision&#8221; by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands&#8212; 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.(of circumcision that has separated the Gentile from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer &#8220;foreigners and aliens&#8221;, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
And you Aliens / Gentiles did not have to follow the law of circumcision or to become a &#8220;Jew&#8221; [witch is Judaizeing] to become one of God's people.
In the context of all of this scripture it is clear that all of Torah is not abolished, but only the regulations of circumcision to the Gentile so he is no longer a foreigner and aliens, but fellow citizens with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

__________________

Acts 10:28And he said to them, &#8220;You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

Those were the Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.Moses..said it..

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

Also we have this...


Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
---
Again incontext

Col 2: 13 When you were &#65279;&#65279;dead &#65279;&#65279;in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He &#65279;&#65279;made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out &#65279;the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and &#65279;&#65279;He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is
written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

He didn't die to abolish the law. Nore did he nail the law to the cross. He nailed the long list of our sins against the law to the cross and died to forgive us, to wipe our slate clean. He forgave us by dying in our place not by abolishing the law.Sure the law


The law remains, the penalty of breaking it doesn't. That does not mean that we are free to sin all we want. It means that we are obligated to live by the spirit and as it says in the verses above Ro 8: 4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The spiritual mans mind is subject to the law of God.

The law is still valid but the capital penalty for breaking it is gone, and replaced with mercy applied by his sacrifice.

 

[Torah]

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

We know the Law is not for the righteous because they are keeping the Law. The “Lawbreakers” are not keeping the Law. Therefore the lawbreakers will be judged by there sin [lawlessness], for haven’t you heard! “1 John 3:4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins-[of lawlessness] And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.



Luke 16:16
“The Law and the Prophets wereuntil John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

In Context Pleas

Luke 16:15-17

13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
Also notice that the Pharisees / Religious leaders of the time had a sweet system of getting money from people who wanted to follow God.


16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Up until John showing up, people went to the Synagogue to hear the Law and the Prophets proclaim the good news that a Messiah would lead them into, living a Holy life according to the only rescores that had at the time, the Law and the Prophets. or as the early Church Fathers add, “The Old Testament”. By John showing up [Mark 1:1-4] he fulfilled prophecy spoken about in the Torah / Law and the Prophets. Read the rest of the scripture.

Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. [Nothing has dropped from the Torah.]


This is speaking of the curse of the written code of the law that condemned us . But He (Yeshua) becomes the curse in our place. So it is the curse of the law that was nailed to thecross.

Ephesians2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law (3551 nomos) of commandments (1785 entole,a commandment of God) contained in ordinances (1378 dogma), so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,


Ephesians2:15 is repeated in Gal 3:13 to clear up this misunderstand.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."


Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision"(By the Jew) (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.( of circumcision that has separated the Gentile from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)
You chose to ignore the context of this scripture. The context of this scripture, witch runs all through the NT, and witch separated Jew & Gentile. Was circumcision! Paul got so sick of having to deal with this subject that he told his Jewish brothers to go castrate yourself. [Gal 5:2]

, His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

In the context of all of this scripture it is clear that all of Torah is not abolished, but only the regulations of circumcision to the Gentile so he is no longer a foreigner and aliens, but fellow citizens with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
He didn't destroy his law. He changed us from within by the spirit so that the things required in the law can be lived out in our lives and so that we are not living by the flesh and condemned by the law but are alive by the spirit and live according to his will. He didn't nail the law to the cross. It says he nailed the written record of our transgressions against that law to the cross and paid for our sins so that we could have life free of the just judgement against us. It says that he removed that list by forgiving our sins, not by removing the law.
----
Notice a few verses down,it says Sabbath...hmmmm

Sounds like more than just a few local laws..huh

It says Sabbath.


[One more time..a simple to understand word,and it's meaning.]
Unless you are misunderstanding the words because you do not understand the cutler, time frame, and the people. But are trying to “Understand” with a preconceived understand that has been handed down to you from an ante-Jewish, Roman, and western understanding.

Colossians 2:16-17

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

What religious festival do you think these Gentiles were keeping? Were they going back to there Pagan Holidays? And what “New Moon celebration” would Gentiles have been celebrating? AND What Sabbath would they be keeping?

(1) The only religious festivals that would have been keep were [1] Pagan or [2] Gods Appointed times.

(2) The New Moon celebration is called (Rosh Chodesh- starting of the Jewish new month)

(3) Shabbat is what is called on the 7th day of the week. One would say the first day, the second day.... But the seventh day was always called the Sabbath day. There are others Sabbaths, Every Holyday of God is called a Sabbath. Such as Passover Sabbath, Yom Kippur Sabbath, and Sukkoth Sabbath.

The reality is that Jesus reflects a shadow on how to live a Godley life. He kept all religious festivals, the Rosh Chodeshcelebration each month And Jesus kept the Saturday Sabbath, Passover Sabbath, Yom Kippur Sabbath, and Sukkoth Sabbath. Jesus reflects these shadows for us to follow. And let no one judge for it.


Friend, I ask that you not to listen or believe in what I post. But I ask you to Fast one day! Pray and ask Hashem / God to show you “Truth”.



Shalom

 

[pinetree]

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

We know the Law is not for the righteous because they are keeping the Law. The &#8220;Lawbreakers&#8221; are not keeping the Law. Therefore the lawbreakers will be judged by there sin [lawlessness], for haven&#8217;t you heard! &#8220;1 John 3:4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins-[of lawlessness] And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Nope..still does not negate the fact of why Paul said it,read it in context.Paul was saying that because of Judaizers who were trying to preach the law,.And the fact remains,that the law is not for the righteous..facts..

Luke 16:16
&#8220;The Law and the Prophets wereuntil John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

In Context Pleas

Luke 16:15-17

13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
Also notice that the Pharisees / Religious leaders of the time had a sweet system of getting money from people who wanted to follow God.


16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Up until John showing up, people went to the Synagogue to hear the Law and the Prophets proclaim the good news that a Messiah would lead them into, living a Holy life according to the only rescores tha

Nice try..but that is why it says..UNTIL...

This is speaking of the curse of the written code of the law that condemned us . But He (Yeshua) becomes the curse in our place. So it is the curse of the law that was nailed to thecross.

Ephesians2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law (3551 nomos) of commandments (1785 entole,a commandment of God) contained in ordinances (1378 dogma), so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,


Ephesians2:15 is repeated in Gal 3:13 to clear up this misunderstand.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Nope..the law was nailed to a tree,and that ends the emnity..

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

Notice a few verses down,it mentions Torah..(Sabbath)

It clearly says NAILED TO A CROSS,AND IT WAS TALKING ABOUT THE LAW..

Same thing here..

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law (nomos 3553) through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision"(By the Jew) (that done in the body by the hands of men)&#8212; 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.( of circumcision that has separated the Gentile from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)
You chose to ignore the context of this scripture. The context of this scripture, witch runs all through the NT, and witch separated Jew & Gentile. Was circumcision! Paul got so sick of having to deal with this subject that he told his Jewish brothers to go castrate yourself. [Gal 5:2]

, His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Not at all.that is a key point..The PROMISE.not the law.The law had to be abolished because it seperated Jew from Gentile..that is a fact.



Acts 10:28And he said to them, &#8220;You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..

Fact!..

In the context of all of this scripture it is clear that all of Torah is not abolished, but only the regulations of circumcision to the Gentile so he is no longer a foreigner and aliens, but fellow citizens with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
He didn't destroy his law. He changed us from within by the spirit so that the things required in the law can be lived out in our lives and so that we are not living by the flesh and condemned by the law but are alive by the spirit and live according to his will. He didn't nail the law to the cross. It says he nailed the written record of our transgressions against that law to the cross and paid for our sins so that we could have life free of the just judgement against us. It says that he removed that list by forgiving our sins, not by removing the law.
----
Notice a few verses down,it says Sabbath...hmmmm

Sounds like more than just a few local laws..huh

It says Sabbath.

Sure proves it was Torah,being spoken about.NOT just some local ordinances....huh?

[One more time..a simple to understand word,and it's meaning.]
Unless you are misunderstanding the words because you do not understand the cutler, time frame, and the people. But are trying to &#8220;Understand&#8221; with a preconceived understand that has been handed down to you from an ante-Jewish, Roman, and western understanding.

Colossians 2:16-17

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

What religious festival do you think these Gentiles were keeping? Were they going back to there Pagan Holidays? And what &#8220;New Moon celebration&#8221; would Gentiles have been celebrating? AND What Sabbath would they be keeping?

Just like in Galatians.."seasons months and years" was the jewish calendar that the Judaizers were trying to push on Gentiles..It says Sabbath..Still Jewish...lol..nice try..STRAWMAN ALERT!

(1) The only religious festivals that would have been keep were [1] Pagan or [2] Gods Appointed times.

(2) The New Moon celebration is called (Rosh Chodesh- starting of the Jewish new month)

(3) Shabbat is what is called on the 7th day of the week. One would say the first day, the second day.... But the seventh day was always called the Sabbath day. There are others Sabbaths, Every Holyday of God is called a Sabbath. Such as Passover Sabbath, Yom Kippur Sabbath, and Sukkoth Sabbath.

The reality is that Jesus reflects a shadow on how to live a Godley life. He kept all religious festivals, the Rosh Chodeshcelebration each month And Jesus kept the Saturday Sabbath, Passover Sabbath, Yom Kippur Sabbath, and Sukkoth Sabbath. Jesus reflects these shadows for us to follow. And let no one judge for it.

The fact is that Jewish gnostics were infiltrating..The fact that Paul said what he did about the Sabbath,shows what was going on..FACT..

Friend, I ask that you not to listen or believe in what I post. But I ask you to Fast one day! Pray and ask Hashem / God to show you &#8220;Truth&#8221;.



Shalom

Dude,I will pray that you realize we are in a new Covenant.

Ps..I had to erase some of your words..sorry..but your pastes are sooo long,that it will only allow a certain amount of characters.

 

[Torah]

I can see that you do not reason through logic, but through your perceived understand of what you have been taught. You focus on words that you want to see and ignore what you choose not to see.[the larger picture]
I can see that discussing The Torah with you is Foolish. Titus 3:9
http://www.christianforums.com/t7389989-3/

 

[Elijah2]

i think this is a case of interpreting a verse devoid of its social and religious understanding and meaning when it was first heard.

zaksmummy is correct as to the verses meaning within a second temple period usage. Anything else is imposing a non second temple period usage onto the text... this is not exegesis but eisegesis.


Steve

Yes Steve this is why so many believers put themselves upon a merry-go-round. I believe that those verses have been misread by those who love to "proof text" to make things to read the way that they want it to be read.

For an example, I believe that "having abolished...law" isn't saying that our Lord Jesus Christ has rejected the righteous standards of the LAW, and after all that church of those days composed of Jews and Gentiles, and that is why Paul said "one new man", because the church of those days were mainly Jews. We need to see that in those days the Jewish believers actually witnessed to the Gentiles and in time there were more Gentiles in the churches than Jews.

Well, that is the way I see it.

Blessings.

 

[charityagape]

I can see that you do not reason through logic, but through your perceived understand of what you have been taught. You focus on words that you want to see and ignore what you choose not to see.[the larger picture]
I can see that discussing The Torah with you is Foolish. Titus 3:9
http://www.christianforums.com/t7389989-3/