Freewill?

[anonymouswho]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

 

[mzungu]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

when you go to a supermarke and choose a product; how sure are you that you did so without your choice being influenced by the marketing forces behind the product?
Now as far as an Omniscient Deity is concerned; it matters not what you choose as the Deity will know what you will choose due to the Omniscient nature of its being.
In short; free will is just a carrot on a stick.

 

[anonymouswho]

Thank you for the reply my friend. I agree. Influence is something else I would like to discuss. As as long as our choices are influenced by things outside of our will, these influences cause us to choose one thing over another. Because of this, I believe our will is neither free from God's foreknowledge, nor is it free from Cause and Effect. Logically, our choices are dependent on what God knows we will do. Scientifically, our choices are determined by the initial Cause of any of our actions, which are likewise Caused by every event that has happened since God said "Let there be light". What do you think? Thank you and God bless myou friend.

 

[lesliedellow]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

On the face of it, an event either has a cause, or it is random. Neither option seems overly friendly to the notion of free will.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I prefer to think my choices are deterministic, because:

... I rather want my actions to be determined by the result of my lifetime development, experiences and learning, determined by my state of mind, emotional and rational, determined by the long-term interaction of my genetic inheritance with the environment. These are the things that make me who and what I am - if my choices were not determined by these things, they wouldn't be my choices.
Dave Lorde 2014

 

[SkyWriting]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

God does not experience time.
The process is like trying to synchronize all of time with your wrist watch.
There is no logical way to do it.

 

[anonymouswho]

You guys are awesome. Randomness is another thing I was hoping to discuss. But we better save that for when Quantum Mechanics comes up. God bless my friend.

 

[anonymouswho]

I prefer to think my choices are deterministic, because:

Exactly! Beautifully written. If it wasn't for Cause and Effect, there would be no individualism. We would all be the random product of whatever random thing the sphere of randomness causes(?) us to be. I have a feeling I'm really going to enjoy discussing this with you all. Thank you my friend and God bless.

 

[AsPatat]

In my opinion you are over-thinking this. I offer my child a choice between two candies. He chooses one. The child made a choice. I knew which one he would choose as I know what he likes. You could argue that there were external influences. That does not change the fact that the child was free to choose. If I provided no candy, only apples, that would be no free will.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A.
By my freewill I choose B.
Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

Yes, God knew what choice you would make.
If YOU knew what choice you would make
then you would have a new choice to let
it effect your decision making process
or not.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In my opinion you are over-thinking this.

I was just about to say that's what you should expect from a philosophy forum when I realised that this is the Physical & Life Sciences forum! this thread is in the wrong forum...

I offer my child a choice between two candies. He chooses one. The child made a choice. I knew which one he would choose as I know what he likes. You could argue that there were external influences. That does not change the fact that the child was free to choose. If I provided no candy, only apples, that would be no free will.

This sounds like you're espousing compatibilist free will, where the freedom is in the choice being uncoerced and unconstrained, and the will can be an expression of deterministic influences.

 

[anonymouswho]

God does not experience time.
The process is like trying to synchronize all of time with your wrist watch.
There is no logical way to do it.

Hello my friend. Thank you for replying. I hope you don't find my bluntness rude, but could you please show me in the Scriptures where it says God is "outside of time", "created time", "simultaneously exist at all time", or anything similar?

The Scriptures say:

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them." Isaiah 44:6

How can that which is outside of time be "first" and "last"?

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting (H5769 עוֹלָם olam: long duration, antiquity) to everlasting (עוֹלָם), thou art God." Psalm 90:2

God is called "the Ancient of Days", and ancient indicates time.

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4

Augustine said that a day to God is eternity. That is unscriptural and doesn't really make any sense. The Scriptures seem to verify Relativity rather than Aristotle's "unmoving mover". How are we to have a relationship with an impersonal God?

Thank you my friend and God bless.

 

[anonymouswho]

I was just about to say that's what you should expect from a philosophy forum when I realised that this is the Physical & Life Sciences forum! this thread is in the wrong forum...

Hello. The reason I posted here is because philosophy is not the only thing I wish to discuss. Of course, philosophy will be a major part of this, but Quantum Physics, neurology, biology, psychology, the Laws of Motion, ect. will all be very relevant. Thank you my friend and God bless.

 

[anonymouswho]

In my opinion you are over-thinking this. I offer my child a choice between two candies. He chooses one. The child made a choice. I knew which one he would choose as I know what he likes. You could argue that there were external influences. That does not change the fact that the child was free to choose. If I provided no candy, only apples, that would be no free will.

Hello and thank you for the reply. You are correct. If you know what your child will choose, then your foreknowledge has not effected this child's decision. However, I'm going to assume that you really know this child. Let's say that you know there is a 99% chance that the child will choose Reeses over a Snickers. However, you are ignorant of the fact that the child ate 30 Snickers a few hours ago. By this time, the child is sick of Snickers, and desires a different candy. They choose the Reeses. This means you were wrong. God knows with 100% certainty that the child is going to choose the Reeses, and He knew this long before the child was ever born. If the child chooses the Snickers, then God was wrong. This is impossible. The child definitely had a choice, they just didn't choose freely.

Also, if there are "external influences" that effect our will, then how do we differentiate between what we freely choose vs what an external influence causes us to choose?

Thank you and God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

Yes, God knew what choice you would make.
If YOU knew what choice you would make
then you would have a new choice to let
it effect your decision making process
or not.

Hello and thank you. I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are saying. I agree that if we knew what choice we'd make, this would leave us open to a new choice. And if a new choice is presented, then this would definitely effect our decision. However, whichever we choose, something caused us to choose it. First, the new choice was the cause of giving us a choice to begin with. This cause then leads to the effect of us choosing. That effect will then be the next cause that determines the next effect; and the cycle continues every second for the rest of our lives. Our initial choice was likewise the product of many Causes and Effects that have built over the span of our life, as well as from our parents (for they are the cause of our environment, upbringing, and physical characteristics), our grandparents (for they are likewise the cause of our parents), all the way back to Adam, and even to when God had reason to begin with.

I hope this isn't confusing. I have to go to bed now, but I will be back on here later. Thank you my friend, and thank you to everyone that has replied. God bless you all.

 

[AsPatat]

I was just about to say that's what you should expect from a philosophy forum when I realised that this is the Physical & Life Sciences forum! this thread is in the wrong forum...
This sounds like you're espousing compatibilist free will, where the freedom is in the choice being uncoerced and unconstrained, and the will can be an expression of deterministic influences.

I will freely admit that I am out of my depth here. I did not intend to espouse anything. I just expressed my own thoughts (which were influenced by a myriad of things). However, yes, I do think this depends on how we define freedom of choice, specifically the word freedom.

 

[AsPatat]

Hello and thank you for the reply. You are correct. If you know what your child will choose, then your foreknowledge has not effected this child's decision. However, I'm going to assume that you really know this child. Let's say that you know there is a 99% chance that the child will choose Reeses over a Snickers. However, you are ignorant of the fact that the child ate 30 Snickers a few hours ago. By this time, the child is sick of Snickers, and desires a different candy. They choose the Reeses. This means you were wrong. God knows with 100% certainty that the child is going to choose the Reeses, and He knew this long before the child was ever born. If the child chooses the Snickers, then God was wrong. This is impossible. The child definitely had a choice, they just didn't choose freely.

Also, if there are "external influences" that effect our will, then how do we differentiate between what we freely choose vs what an external influence causes us to choose?

Thank you and God bless you.

If I offered the child a choice between two things he liked equally, I would have a 50/50 chance of knowing. If I offered the child a choice between a cabbage and a candy I could probably be 100% certain what the child would choose. (Although there could also be an exception I guess.) The point is that my knowing or not knowing does not determine what the child chooses. But you are right that the choice could be determined by a belly full of snickers, that he chose to eat.

May God bless you also!

 

[timewerx]

Because of this, I believe our will is neither free from God's foreknowledge, nor is it free from Cause and Effect. Logically, our choices are dependent on what God knows we will do. Scientifically, our choices are determined by the initial Cause of any of our actions, which are likewise Caused by every event that has happened since God said "Let there be light". What do you think? Thank you and God bless myou friend.

According to that, I have deduced that in order to demonstrate free will, your actions become completely undetermined by the current situation.

Thus, you become quite unpredictable.

But people will look at you as insane or even mad, don't you think??

Christ has been accused of madness, Vincent Van Gogh too.... Madness seems to be the stuff legends are made of.... But that is also what makes them truly free.... Vincent Van Gogh, thinks so, and he may be right.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Hello everyone. I would like to discuss freewill, and whether such a thing is possible Scientifically, Logically, and according to Scripture. I will start with Logic.

I have a choice between A or B. God knows that I will choose A. By my freewill I choose B. Please explain. Thank you all and God bless you.

No, God knows you can choose either A or B and the outcomes of both choices. A is the proper choice but if He forced you to choose A instead of B, then you would have no free will. You are free to choose B, even if He told you A is the right choice.

Free will means you can choose B even if told A is the best choice. If forced to choose A you would be nothing but a robot with no free will. He see the outcomes of all possible choices. Free will means you can choose any you want - even if it's not the best choice in the long run. But since you can't see the end from the beginning you might wrongly assume B is the correct choice over A.

 

[anonymouswho]

I will freely admit that I am out of my depth here. I did not intend to espouse anything. I just expressed my own thoughts (which were influenced by a myriad of things). However, yes, I do think this depends on how we define freedom of choice, specifically the word freedom.

Hello friend. I'm sorry if this is new to you, but please understand that I believe freewill is impossible because the Scriptures tell me:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." Proverbs 16:9

"There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." Proverbs 19:21

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

These are just a few, but I believe every word of them. The Scriptures never tell us we have a free will, so I have no use for it.

Everything else we may talk about, such as determinism, compatibilism, the uncertainty principle, or any other nonsense is utterly meaningless.

Believe the Scriptures, ask God, and He will teach you all things.

God bless you my friend.