Freewill?

[Soul Searcher]

I really don't think that if something's existence is dependent on God, and it became non existant, for whatever the reason, it would be that inaccurate to say that it became separated from God.

Seperated impiles that it exists but in a different location. Something that does not exist does not exist in any location therefore it is not seperate it is nonexistant. To say that a nonexistant object is seperated is inaccurate and missleading at best.

 

[Evergreen48]

EG.. The scriptures that you have posted in context are talking about who then can be saved. The meaning is that all men can be saved not that God can make square circles.

Who said that those scriptures did mean that God can make square circles?

But the meaning I get from the scriptures is, that With God all things are possible. And I don't see the 'All things that are possible' clause in the scripture at all.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Who said that those scriptures did mean that God can make square circles?

Most recently, I did but since there is and can be no such thing as a square circle then common sense says so as well.

But the meaning I get from the scriptures is, that With God all things are possible. And I don't see the 'All things that are possible' clause in the scripture at all.

Yet you do not believe that all things will be saved even though that is exactly what he was talking about.

I'm not going to argue with you about it as it is not worth it to me to try and agrue against logical absurites like square circles and such.

 

[Evergreen48]

Seperated impiles that it exists but in a different location. Something that does not exist does not exist in any location therefore it is not seperate it is nonexistant. To say that a nonexistant object is seperated is inaccurate and missleading at best.

No. Not if it had once existed.

I think "did"/"didn't" arguments are silly and childish. So this is my final comment on this particular argument.

 

[Pneuma3]

You can’t be serious here brother. God is LOVE and LOVE never fails and God so LOVED the whole world. That His character Harlin, not the one painted by the eternal tomentists and aniholationists, which do not but malign His character.
What part of LOVE NEVER FAILS do people not understand?

Deadly serious, I believe that the second death is an eternal death, eternal separation from God (Rev 20:6,13-15) Not eternal torture. (PS, I am a sister, not a brother lol)

Hi sis ( I always seem to get that wrong)
It is not eternal separation from God sis, the destruction is IN His presence not away from His presence.
Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
So according to what you believe the second death is eternal separation from God, then how do you explain the above scripture.

What I do believe is that we reap what we sow, if we use the talents God has given us for evil, then that is what we will reap and if we use them for good, then that too is what we will reap. God isn't some tyrant sitting up there on His throne waiting to punish those who are disobedient. God is like a loving Father, chastising and teaching His children to fashion them after His own character and the character of His Son.

We actually agree up to this point sis.

However, if they persist in their disobedience to the point that they will not be reproved, and repent, the consequences are that God will eventually leave them to their own devices. That is when Satan steps in and destroys them, and uses those disobedient children to influence others too.

However here we fail to meet. The scriptures state I will never leave thee or forsake thee.
God may for a time seemingly close the door but He will never give up on His children, what parent could?
Quote:
Have you ever read what Paul states about his will?

How he could not do the things he wanted, saying to WILL is present with me but how to perform what I will I find not.

The good that he would do he did no, but that which he hated is that which he did.

Now can any of you free will advocates show me where Paul has free will here?

And if one who was so close to God as Paul was could not by using his free will overcome the law of sin in his members how much harder for those that know not God

Yes, we are in bondage to sin, and yes, even though we might want to do those good things ourselves, we know we can't, it is through the strength of Christ alone that we can become conquerors.

Good we are in agreement here, so if it is only by the strength of Christ alone that we are victorious why do people believe they are victorious because they will to be?
And how can someone who does not have Christ in his life ever overcome his sins?
Christians today say it’s because we choose Jesus, we choose to follow Him.
Wrong, wrong, wrong the scriptures state you have NOT chosen me, I have chosen you.
It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth but of God.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Oh how many of Gods own people have it backwards, they constantly state it’s because of my will, my belief, my choice etc. making a god out of themselves, serving the creature more then the creator.
This thing is done of God alone.

It is obvious though, that we still have the will to actually want to do those things, we want to go against our natural carnal flesh, which is saying otherwise, and want to choose to follow the way of good, but can't in our own strength, but, in our great insufficiency we can reach out to Christ and He will give us the strength to put action to those wants.

No one is saying that man does not have a will sis what we are saying is the will in man is not free. Thus the law of sin in our members overrides our will.
Now if the law of sin is so hard to overcome for those who have Christ working in their behalf do you not think it would be impossible for those that do not know Him?
And yet Christianity judges them to eternal torment or annihilation and say God is being just because they did not chose me, did not believe in me etc.

We choose to respond to the drawing process of God, even though our whole being is saying otherwise, we want to have our hearts of stone changed to hearts of flesh, God doesn't do this without our wanting to have it done.

This is true sis but we choose to respond only because God is working out His will from within you.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Now did we respond to do His good pleasure by our free will or was it God working His will in us to do His good pleasure?

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7-8

Again this is true, and it is why we are to put on the mind of CHRIST.
There is only ONE head to a body, and we like John of old must be beheaded (decreased) that He might increase (become the head of the body).
So who’s mind do you have? The mind of Christ or the carnal mind?
So if one only has a carnal mind (which is of the old man unregenerated nature) and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be, would not God be unjust to annihilate or eternally torment such a person?

We are told to "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness....." not to let God drag us to Him because we cannot freely decide for ourselves to "seek" for Him.

You have it backwards sis, first God draws us to Him then we seek the kingdom of God first.

Part of God drawing us to Him, gives us the opportunity to make a moral judgement, to taste and see that the Lord is good. We are not compelled against our will, or forced to search for God and see His goodness, He reveals it to us as we continue to search for Him. We are free at any moment to stop searching, and to cease building our side of the relationship with God.

Harlin when we are beheaded for Christ (when we have put on the mind of Christ) we no longer have our own will, we are given the will of the saviour.
The carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.
Those who hold to the belief that it is by their own free will that they serve god are saying that their carnal mind is subject to the laws of God.
I agree we are not compelled against our will sis because I believe we are to be beheaded.
Our will, will simply disappear as we are swallowed up in Christ.
Then it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me, yet I live.
Then it is no longer my will, but Christ’s, it is no longer my strength but Christ’s.
Jesus Christ takes a hold of the reign’s sis and directs our steps, for it is not in man of himself to direct his own steps.

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
You might want to read the book of Job again Harlin.
God used Satan for His own purpose, Satan never said look at Job God, it was God who directed Satan to conceder Job.
You seem to think what happen to Job was a bad thing, so to did his 3 friend and we know where that mentality got them.

God then allows, not causes Satan to take away all that belongs to Job, but tells him that he is not to touch his person. If God had not stopped Satan from touching Job, Satan would have totally destroyed him.

The lesson is, God did NOT cause that destruction, it was only when His protection was removed that Satan was permitted to cause any destruction to Job. Yes, God did not interpose, Job was sorely afflicted, and his friends sought to make him acknowledge that his suffering was the result of sin, and cause him to feel under condemnation. They represented his case as that of a great sinner; but the Lord rebuked them for their judgement of Job.

I do not agree with their mentality.

Cause and effect again sis, if God had not removed His protection Satan could never have caused Job any harm.
God by removing His protection ultimately caused Jobs destruction.
This destruction was for Jobs good, or do you believe God just wanted to torment the poor man like a cat with a mouse?
But Jobs is to deep a subject to get into right now.
Quote:
Well you are right about one thing sin cannot exist in His presence.
Did you ever think maybe just maybe it is the sin in every man that is removed at judgment?

Not for a moment, because when Jesus comes a second time, His reward is with Him, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:12 Plus, why would God wait until the judgement to remove mans sins when He can do that now?

I don’t look at the judgment or Jesus coming the second time as a future event sis, for some this is true but for the overcomer Jesus has already come the second time and the judgment is already past. When He was born in us He came into the flesh a second time and by His presences within judgment is made to the removing of sin in each of us that has been born of God.
Quote:
Man has a will, but mans will is not free, according to Paul the will is held in bondage to the law of sin and if you believe what Paul says how can you believe your will is free?

"And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" John 8:32

If Christ had not made atonement for mankind, after the fall Satan would have forever held them under the bondage of sin. However, since Jesus has come to set us free, freewill has been restored to mankind again, and we are free from the bondage of sin we are able to willfully through Christ keep the perfect law of liberty.

Yes whom the SON sets free is free indeed, that does not mean we by our own will are set free but that we must rely solely of Jesus Christ.
Our will is simply destroyed because their can only be one head of the body and that head is Jesus Christ.

God bless

 

[Pneuma3]

All things are possible for God to do, except for the salvation of all men, .

 

[Soul Searcher]

All things are possible for God to do, except for the salvation of all men, .

Yep.. he can wipe us out of existance, or he can torture us for eternity but heaven forbid he show a little kindness and save us from ourselves.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Freewill
FREEWILL', n.
1. The power of directing our own actions without restraint by necessity or fate.
2. Voluntariness; spontaneousness.

Feewill in the bible comes fromt he following two words.

H5071
נדבה
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering

H5069
נדב (Aramaic)
nedab
BDB Definition:
1) to volunteer, offer freely
1a) (Ithpael)
1a1) to volunteer
1a2) to give freely, offer freely

 

[Pneuma3]

Originally Posted by Pneuma3

That does not mean away form His presence, but in fact that it is from His presence the destruction comes.

Pneuma
Good grief! Take a look at some other versions of that scripture.

-- Darby's Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

-- Weymouth's New Testament
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

-- Webster's Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

-- International Standard Version
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

-- William's NewTestament
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will receive the punishment of eternal destruction as exiles from the presence of the Lord and His glorious might,

-- Montgomery New Testament
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer punishment, even an eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the brightness of his glorious majesty,

How is it that you seem to set yourself above these learned ones with your own reading of that scripture?

not setting myself above anything any of these translators said sis.

Not one of them says the destruction is away from the presence of the Lord.

They in fact state what I did that the destruction is from the presence of the Lord.

You are simply adding a word (away) not one translation agrees with.



Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Explain the away part here?
or is it your that it is you yourself that holds your own understanding above thoses learned men an women who translated them.

 

[Evergreen48]

All things are possible for God to do, except for the salvation of all men, .

I find you guys quite amusing sometimes too. Like when you all 'gang up in one corner' and start talking among yourselves about what other posters believe. I remember doing stuff like that at recess when I was in grade school. he he he he

 

[Pneuma3]

I find you guys quite amusing sometimes too. Like when you all 'gang up in one corner' and start talking among yourselves about what other posters believe. I remember doing stuff like that at recess when I was in grade school. he he he he

I have no idea what you are talking about here sis.
example please.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Why is it that some people consider it a violation of our freewill to save us but not to destroy us? I could never quite wrap my mind around that one.

Why do so many think that this finite lifetime is the only thing that matters in terms of eternity?

If God truly wanted us to be saved and not violate our so-called freewill would he not develop somekind of voluntary rehabilitation program that we could freely participate in at any time? Upon death would he not show us what heaven would be like and what hell would be like and offer us a real informed choice?

If on judgment day a man, let's say a nonbeliever that up unto this point in time is an unrepenant sinner says he was a fool and asks God for a second chance. Would it be a violation of his freewill for God to give it to him?

It seems to me that the freewill arguement as a means of justifing punishment of an eternal nature falls far short of the mark.

 

[Pneuma3]

Why is it that some people consider it a violation of our freewill to save us but not to destroy us? I could never quite wrap my mind around that one.

Me either seems so contradictory to me.

 

[Evergreen48]

I have no idea what you are talking about here sis.
example please.

Examples for you:

So, where in the Bible does it say what happens to a five year old who does not choose Christ and then dies?
We can know the mind of God on the things which our finite minds can comprehend. I don't know about you, but as for myself, I have never talked with anyone who has 'been there, done that' and returned to tell about it, or read in the Bible exactly what happens to a person of any age when they die, other than 'the flesh returns to the dust from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it'. And that is rather nondescript, wouldn't you say?

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?"

Personally I think the sermon on the mount tells us a lot about the mind of God.

exactly!

not to mention everything else that He has ever said in the entirety of the bible!

O look another! (grin)

Pray for Him that his eyes may be opened!

We're like coackroaches crawling out from everywhere

coackroaches??? I... am not sure.... I like ...... cockroaches! Is this a metaphor? Or can you beam me up scotty?

Metaphor... ummm .... yes that's it... metaphor first there was one or two and now they are showing up in bunches

So I don't get beamed up.

If you are willing to assume the risk, seems the transporters have developed freewill.

I'm sure that's probably not the first time that analogy has be use for us, if you get my drift.

That wouldn't be good, cuz then it would'nt be a transporter at all.

It would be a robot!

 

[Pneuma3]

Examples for you:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen48
So, where in the Bible does it say what happens to a five year old who does not choose Christ and then dies?
We can know the mind of God on the things which our finite minds can comprehend. I don't know about you, but as for myself, I have never talked with anyone who has 'been there, done that' and returned to tell about it, or read in the Bible exactly what happens to a person of any age when they die, other than 'the flesh returns to the dust from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it'. And that is rather nondescript, wouldn't you say?

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Searcher
Personally I think the sermon on the mount tells us a lot about the mind of God.




Quote:
Originally Posted by martymonster
exactly!

not to mention everything else that He has ever said in the entirety of the bible!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairettic
O look another! (grin)



Quote:
Originally Posted by martymonster
Pray for Him that his eyes may be opened!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Searcher
We're like coackroaches crawling out from everywhere



Quote:
Originally Posted by hairettic
coackroaches??? I... am not sure.... I like ...... cockroaches! Is this a metaphor? Or can you beam me up scotty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Seacher
Metaphor... ummm .... yes that's it... metaphor first there was one or two and now they are showing up in bunches

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairettic
So I don't get beamed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Searcher
If you are willing to assume the risk, seems the transporters have developed freewill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymonster
I'm sure that's probably not the first time that analogy has be use for us, if you get my drift.



Quote:
Originally Posted by martymonster
That wouldn't be good, cuz then it would'nt be a transporter at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martymonster

It would be a robot!


I don't know about how you see that sis, but I see them making fun more at thier own expense then at the expence of another.

 

[elman]

Why is it that some people consider it a violation of our freewill to save us but not to destroy us? I could never quite wrap my mind around that one.

Why do so many think that this finite lifetime is the only thing that matters in terms of eternity?

If God truly wanted us to be saved and not violate our so-called freewill would he not develop somekind of voluntary rehabilitation program that we could freely participate in at any time? Upon death would he not show us what heaven would be like and what hell would be like and offer us a real informed choice?

If on judgment day a man, let's say a nonbeliever that up unto this point in time is an unrepenant sinner says he was a fool and asks God for a second chance. Would it be a violation of his freewill for God to give it to him?

It seems to me that the freewill arguement as a means of justifing punishment of an eternal nature falls far short of the mark.

Freewill meaning the ability to love or not love each other is not a means of justifying eternal punishment as far as I am concerned. It is a way of understanding perhaps why I exist. If I was created in order for God to love me and for me to respond to His love then it follows that I have the abililty to love or not love since that ability is necessary for love to exist. If that is the reason I exist and if I fulfill the reason I was created then I see some hope the Creator would extend my existence or another way of saying it, give me a second gift of life, spiritual life. If I do not fulfil the purpose I was created, I see no reason God has to give me spiritual life anyway. His gift of physical life obligated Him in no way to give me eternal life. He is able to be a loving God even though some only receive the one gift of physical life since they do not fulfil the purpose they were given that gift, i.e. being loving. It is all about eternal life and not about eternal punishment. Yes I agree God could have created a rehabilitation program for those who are unloving in this life, but I see no obligation on God to do that. He could also use reincarnation, but I see no reason to believe we have more gifts of physical life than this one. It is not a question of violation of freewill. It is that love requires freewill to be love. If there is no freewill you are talking about a loving robot and that is not understandable to me. The suffering in this world is a part of creation and if it was created by God for no purpose and with no free will, then how is God loving to have done that?

 

[elman]

Originally Posted by Pneuma3

That does not mean away form His presence, but in fact that it is from His presence the destruction comes.




not setting myself above anything any of these translators said sis.

Not one of them says the destruction is away from the presence of the Lord.

They in fact state what I did that the destruction is from the presence of the Lord.

You are simply adding a word (away) not one translation agrees with.



Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Explain the away part here?
or is it your that it is you yourself that holds your own understanding above thoses learned men an women who translated them.

What does destruction mean to you?

 

[Pneuma3]

What does destruction mean to you?

The destruction spoken of here is the birth of Christ in ones life, which is for the destruction of the man that he is( the old man ) by the birth of Christ within.

The destruction has alway been for the old man nature in us Elman, not for the destruction of the man but of that old man nature in each of us.

 

[martymonster]

So you think God forces us to be loving to each other?

So what you saying is, it was you own goodness that brought you to realise that UR and not ET was right then?