Is there a biblical reference for freewill? Or is this another doctrinal belief?
Freewill?
- Thread starter hairettic
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Bernie02
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The doctrine of free will is drawn, as most doctrines are, from matching history and human experience with Biblical principles. The important thing in proving or disproving doctrines lies in the ability of experience [including 'personal revelation'] to find unity with Biblical principles.
Using proof texts [passages] is a subordinate method of supporting principles. This is important to understand, because lots of folks try to 'proof text' each other to death as though a collection of particulars has strength enough on their own to survive apart from the universal prinicples to which they're supposed to represent.
Hence. when someone hotly demands, "Show me where this is true in the Bible!", they're virtually always using the wrong standards of judgment by which they're willing to accept something as true.
This is why most of these discussions carry on ad infinitum without resolution...we tend to ignore the forest [underlying principles] while concentrating on the trees [proof texts].
To determine if free will is a valid doctrine first demands a definition of "free". Free as in unhindered is untenable. Free as in "some measure of ability to choose freely" is a given...what purpose would there be to exhorting others to choose correctly if to choose correctly in at least some measure was not an available option?
What do you think, hairettic...do we have free will? What definition do you use?
Using proof texts [passages] is a subordinate method of supporting principles. This is important to understand, because lots of folks try to 'proof text' each other to death as though a collection of particulars has strength enough on their own to survive apart from the universal prinicples to which they're supposed to represent.
Hence. when someone hotly demands, "Show me where this is true in the Bible!", they're virtually always using the wrong standards of judgment by which they're willing to accept something as true.
This is why most of these discussions carry on ad infinitum without resolution...we tend to ignore the forest [underlying principles] while concentrating on the trees [proof texts].
To determine if free will is a valid doctrine first demands a definition of "free". Free as in unhindered is untenable. Free as in "some measure of ability to choose freely" is a given...what purpose would there be to exhorting others to choose correctly if to choose correctly in at least some measure was not an available option?
What do you think, hairettic...do we have free will? What definition do you use?
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Choice is not freewill!
eg. "Give me all your money or I'll blow ya head off"
Some might try and say that that is a choice, as in you can choose either to give the robber your money, or you can choose to get your head blown off!
Make up your own mind as to whether you think this is a real choice or not.
Ironically, this is akin to the freedom that humanity has to choose between serving God or not, according to orthodox churchianity!
eg. "Give me all your money or I'll blow ya head off"
Some might try and say that that is a choice, as in you can choose either to give the robber your money, or you can choose to get your head blown off!
Make up your own mind as to whether you think this is a real choice or not.
Ironically, this is akin to the freedom that humanity has to choose between serving God or not, according to orthodox churchianity!
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The American Heritage College Dictionary:
"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:
"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
And for clarification:
Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
Free from "CONSTRAINT."
Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
Free from "DIVINE WILL."
Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
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Benoni
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We all have freewill to sin and to do our own thing. Choose the type of car; be it new or used; choose are spouse or whatever; to choose what religion or faith we will follow or to choose to be an athirst.
The real question does freewill have anything to do with our salvation?
Answer: no..
The real question does freewill have anything to do with our salvation?
Answer: no..
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Hello,
So....would God allow us to make choices in all these aspects of our lives, but not give us the freedom to make the most important choice of all? Whether we want to serve Him or not?
If we get to "choose what religion or faith we will follow", isn't that God giving us freewill? What if I choose to follow Satan's "religion" (ie:Satanism), that isn't the way unto Salvation, Christ is the only way, am I then exercising "freewill" and not choosing Salvation?.
When God tells us that the wages of sin is death, then I believe this means eternal death as well as temporal, I understand that we have a freewill choice to make, we can decide to stay put in our sins and perish, now and eternally, or we can repent, confess and have those sins forgiven, hence choosing the path of Salvation and receiving eternal life.
God Bless,
Harlin
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Benoni
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Man can take all the credit he/she wants to about excepting Jesus as the savior; but is that how God's Word it is said it is done.
I understand what the traditional teaching is; but my point is not what tradition teaches but what does God’s Word teach or does not show us.
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
I have searched and cannot not find the concept of freewill or the word “free will/freewill” in the Bible except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation.
Freewill; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures. But I am saying we do not come to God by free will; we are saved by grace. I see on the contrary He draws (Gk. drags) us.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.
Draw Greek Strong’s 1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
So if freewill is in scripture I have not found it?
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Christ paid the penalty for sin and he is not eternally dead. In fact he is ALIVE.
If you think you are free you should just simply choose not to sin.
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Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I know not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Sorry, but there doesn't sound like a whole lot of freewill to sin going on there, and Paul was a spiritual giant!
how much more those of us who aren't?
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God does not need to be pulling strings or forcing us in order not to have free will. The problem is most do not understand or comprehend how God works.
I love my wife but I did not make myself fall in love with her. There are many things that make me Love her and it is those things that are the cause of my love and if she did not have these attributes that she has not only would I not love her as much, but I would probably would not have ever married her. Also I was not her puppet/robot or whatever else it is people think God does if we do not have free will. All is of God. He is the cause of all of creation.
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Benoni
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My point is not that I sin or do not sin; for I am a sinner (saved by grace not freewill) and that is why I need a savior like all men.
The issue we are speaking of is salvation by freewill; a freewill doctrine that is not scriptural but religious dogma.
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Benoni
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What is religion? Was Jesus religious; how about Paul? Which religion of the 20,000 plus has the reality of the truth? What was the first religious act in the Bible?But I am a dissenter of religious dogma!
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Benoni
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The first religious act was when Adam and Eve placed the fig leaves over their naked body. Spiritually speaking they were covered their spiritual nakedness with something other then God.
Spiritual truth is progressive and is always seeking asking and knocking. Many have a foundation in a religion a creed or a system which restricts their understanding. A good example is the doctrine of freewill. But the first miracle Jesus performed is to change the water (Word of God) in to wine (Revelation of the Spirit).
Spiritual truth is progressive and is always seeking asking and knocking. Many have a foundation in a religion a creed or a system which restricts their understanding. A good example is the doctrine of freewill. But the first miracle Jesus performed is to change the water (Word of God) in to wine (Revelation of the Spirit).
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It blows the mind how people can beleive God gave man free will and then turns around and eternally torments them for using the free gift He gave them.
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