Freewill and Souls

[Hnefi]

I believe in the supernatural but I don't believe the supernatural is needed for me to have the ability to make decisions and impact my environment.

Obviously not. Everything, event the most mundane objects, impact their environment.

Free will is not determinism because I can make the choice either way and it is not determined ahead of time by any forces other than my decision. My decisions are not random.

You are contracticting yourself here. First you say that your decision is not dependent on any forces other than your decision, and since your decision has not yet been made, that means that your decision is not dependent on anything. This is the definition of randomness. Then you go on and say that your decision is not random.

How isn't it random if it is not dependent on a cause? You can't just take the definition of randomness and say "like random, except not random". That's nonsensical.

They are made for reasons and I make them, chosing which reasons I want to use to influence my decisions.

But those reasons are the causes which determine your decisions. Your choice of reasons are in turn caused by other, previous choices and externeal influences. That does not indicate free will, whatever it might be.

 

[elman]

Quote:
I believe in the supernatural but I don't believe the supernatural is needed for me to have the ability to make decisions and impact my environment.

Obviously not. Everything, event the most mundane objects, impact their environment.

But the most mundane objects don't get to chose from different options on how to impact their enriroment. Conscious beings do.
Quote:
Free will is not determinism because I can make the choice either way and it is not determined ahead of time by any forces other than my decision. My decisions are not random.

You are contracticting yourself here. First you say that your decision is not dependent on any forces other than your decision

Not what I said. I said the external influences do not determine ahead of time what I will chose.

and since your decision has not yet been made, that means that your decision is not dependent on anything. This is the definition of randomness. Then you go on and say that your decision is not random.

I don't understand this but my decsions are not usually random. There are usually reasons behind them.

How isn't it random if it is not dependent on a cause? You can't just take the definition of randomness and say "like random, except not random". That's nonsensical.

It is dependent on a cause and I am one of the causes.

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They are made for reasons and I make them, chosing which reasons I want to use to influence my decisions.

But those reasons are the causes which determine your decisions.

No they are one of the causes of my decisions. I am the other cause.

Your choice of reasons are in turn caused by other, previous choices and externeal influences.

Influenced perhaps, but not caused separate from me.

 

[Hnefi]

But the most mundane objects don't get to chose from different options on how to impact their enriroment. Conscious beings do.

That depends on your definition of choice. The only coherent definition I know of is "the ability to decide and implement a course of action given a certain set of circumstances". Unfortunately, this fits unconscious entities just as well as conscious ones.

Not what I said. I said the external influences do not determine ahead of time what I will chose.

But that is the same thing as saying that the choice is uncaused, because your own self is caused by previous external influences. The "internal" influences that constitute you are just the result of your history, which was formed by whatever circumstances you've been exposed to. Therefore, if no external influences determine your chocie, your choice is uncaused, hence random.

I don't understand this but my decsions are not usually random. There are usually reasons behind them.

Exactly! The fact that you use reason to reach conclusions clearly demonstrates determinism, since reason is a function that translates stimuli into an appropriate response.

It is dependent on a cause and I am one of the causes.

Yes, you most definitely are. But all that you are has been formed by your history (including, of course, genetics). Therefore, you are a product of deterministic processes. Every process known is a cause of something, and almost every process known has been shown to have a cause itself (quantum fluctuations being the exception, AFAIK). Just because you are a cause does not mean that you yourself lack causes.

Influenced perhaps, but not caused separate from me.

Obviously not separate, but filtered through whoever you were at the particular moment that the external influence affected you. Before that, other influences had already affected and influenced you, in a long chain all the way back to your conception (and arguably even prior to that). You are the sum of your history (including genetics), nothing more, nothing less.

 

[elman]

Quote:
But the most mundane objects don't get to chose from different options on how to impact their enriroment. Conscious beings do.

That depends on your definition of choice. The only coherent definition I know of is "the ability to decide and implement a course of action given a certain set of circumstances". Unfortunately, this fits unconscious entities just as well as conscious ones.

How do you think a rock decides on a course of action?

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Not what I said. I said the external influences do not determine ahead of time what I will chose.

But that is the same thing as saying that the choice is uncaused, because your own self is caused by previous external influences.

This is not logical. I am the cause therefore it is not uncaused. I am not the only cause therefore it is not uncaused. The fact that something cause me to exist does not have anything to do with what I cause to happen aside from the fact nothing would happen that was caused by me if I did not exist.

The "internal" influences that constitute you are just the result of your history, which was formed by whatever circumstances you've been exposed to.

This is incorrect. That is only part of me.

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I don't understand this but my decisions are not usually random. There are usually reasons behind them.

Exactly! The fact that you use reason to reach conclusions clearly demonstrates determinism, since reason is a function that translates stimuli into an appropriate response.

Only determined by me with the use of reasons. Not controled by the reasons.

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It is dependent on a cause and I am one of the causes.

Yes, you most definitely are. But all that you are has been formed by your history (including, of course, genetics).

No I am more than that.

Therefore, you are a product of deterministic processes.

I am partly the product of deterministic processes and partly what I chose to be.

Every process known is a cause of something, and almost every process known has been shown to have a cause itself (quantum fluctuations being the exception, AFAIK). Just because you are a cause does not mean that you yourself lack causes.

Just because I myself was partially caused does not mean I have no ability to influence what I am being caused to be.

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Influenced perhaps, but not caused separate from me.

Obviously not separate, but filtered through whoever you were at the particular moment that the external influence affected you. Before that, other influences had already affected and influenced you, in a long chain all the way back to your conception (and arguably even prior to that). You are the sum of your history (including genetics), nothing more, nothing less.

How can you prove that? I don't accept it as true. And even if true I was part of the creator of my history. So if my history is part of the cause, that just reverts back to me and my choices.

 

[stranger]

Is there any way that you could somehow have not done what you did today.... I do not think so ....

We are determinate, but we do not UNDERSTAND what determines us ...

So many like to pretend they are 'free' of all things, like the mythical gods ... it is an 'ego trip' . an unpleasant thing to have to see in oneself , many just won't look ...

What can they even imagine they are free FROM ??? [one has to be free of SOMETHING to be free after all]

Spinoza wrote on this paradox in the self of man and more recently Saul Smilansky [Univ. of Haifa] detailed the illusion of free will in men ...

Spinoza suggested re-defining free-will as simply the state of perfect knowledge, where men are conformed to act FREE from mistakes, free from sin , free from unlovingness ...

For him [and me] it is perfect knowledge that frees mankind , and this is what Jesus said too... but it is freedom in conformity to perfection, not freedom to sin as most men interpret their precious 'excuse' for continuing to be unloving in this world [not that men need and excuse , but many think that they do]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truthJesus)

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So there is a propblem, because the ways men get knowledge through deductive science and thought produce only relative truth... even in the age of the universe it simply [logically] CANNOT produce absolute truth to free men from unlovingness [be perfect, be free to love, not sin]

So men are destined to live in ignorance in this world [except the few given to Jesus to be saints of God] and men thus have to invent ways to live with themselves as imperfect, by denial, by refusal to see we are determinate creatures despite conclusive evidence... men thus simply bury head in the sand and continue sinning, and even invent religions that say it is OK to be a sinner ...

and the irony is that it is OK to be a sinner or a saint, itmakes no difference in the end whoo one is MADE to be :-

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Religion then has it wrong , just as the legal system has it wrong, men have INSTITUTED these things BECAUSE of ignorance ... the self defends itself by lying to itself, by impenetrable refusal to see....

But even that is not mankind's fault, it is the way we are, the way we are put together , we cannot straighetn ourselves out... so we need the absolute to do that for us eventually :-

Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.{Solomon}

God can straighten men out, but will not do that in this world except for His very few saints

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

God has promised all truth to ALL men [in the righteous (loving!) new earth ] :-

Joel 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

So men will be free to love in the new earth, but they will be free as God in translation to spirit in the 'third heaven' [immortality of the spirit, oneness with God]

 

[kingreaper]

Particularly for atheists:

Do you believe in freewill?

By freewill I mean incompatibilistic or libertarian freewill.

No. The very concept is nonsensical.

If so, how do you explain it apart from a non-material soul?

A non-material soul doesn't help explain it.

Nothing does. because it makes no sense on a level beyond merely the laws of physics.

If not, aren't you admitting your opinions are the result of material determinism rather than rational reasoning?

What says the two are mutually exclusive?

Is my calculator's answer the product of material determinism or mathematical calculation? Both.

The same is true of me.

 

[kingreaper]

In a singularly deterministic world, concepts like reason, purpose and morality have no meaning. If all you do is caused by prior efficacious factors that are separate from you, then responsibility is separate from you also.

Why?

Just because something has causes which are, through it, causes for its effects, doesn't mean that it isn't a cause.

Just because something isn't responsible for itself, doesn't mean it isn't responsible for anything else.

There are no free choices based on reasons,

A choice cannot simultaneously be non-deterministic (libertarianly free) and based on reasons.

I prefer reasoned choices to libertarian ones.

but rather all are effects based on causes going all the way back to the first caused.

And yet they're simultaneously reasoned choices. funny that.

Only in a multi-deterministic universe can responsibility fall on multiple agents.

Incorrect. Responsibility can fall on intermediate people, not just one.

Hitler was responsible for the holocaust. So was Goebbels. And yet, each individual soldier who took part is responsible for their part.

Responsibility isn't something that can only fall on the ultimate cause. It can fall on every level of proximate cause.

And only freewill could explain multi-determinism.

What is multi-determinism anyway?

Clear as mud?

Clearly.

 

[kingreaper]

But how? Is a running computer program going through a reasoning process?

Why, yes.

If all you do is based on prior determining factors, where is reason taking place?

In the emergent phenomenon that is my mind.

Reasoning is an emergent phenomenon, it does not occur on the particulate level, and yet it does occur. A description of things at the particle level is simply too zoomed in to notice the patterns.

All you do and believe is the result of mindless chemical reactions in your brain.

A) There's much more than chemical reactions involved
B) Each reaction is mindless. The whole is a mind. Emergence.

Is there any part of you that has control over these processes?

I am those processes.

Or perhaps you believe the processes have control over themselves??

No. I do not control my mind, I AM my mind.

 

[Hnefi]

How do you think a rock decides on a course of action?

By reacting to its environment. Whenever something applies momentum to the rock, it decides to move. In what direction and how much, well, that depends on the momentum it was given. It's a trivial and easily predictable choice, yes, but a choice nonetheless. Our choices are usually predictable too, just not as easily so since we take into account far more variables than the rock ever does.

This is not logical. I am the cause therefore it is not uncaused. I am not the only cause therefore it is not uncaused. The fact that something cause me to exist does not have anything to do with what I cause to happen aside from the fact nothing would happen that was caused by me if I did not exist.

But you are claiming that what you decide was not caused by external influences. That is like a cog in a clock saying that it causes the other cogs around it to turn. The cog is right, of course, but fails to recognize that it itself is turning because of other cogs. In effect, the cog is just an extension of other cogs, helping to form and affect a chain of events but not creating any events ex nihilo on its own.

I don't understand this but my decsions are not usually random. There are usually reasons behind them.

Great. And those reasons are a clear indication that you are, at least to a very large degree, deterministic.

No I am more than that.

Really? What, exactly? And if you say soul, please define what soul is.

I am partly the product of deterministic processes and partly what I chose to be.

But you cannot choose what you are, because that choice is completely dependent on what you are when you are making the choice. See - it goes around in circles. You can't change yourself without taking into account who you already are, which is what determines what you will choose to become. And you have been formed by your history.

How can you prove that? I don't accept it as true.

I can prove it by pointing out that the alternative is a logical paradox.

And even if true I was part of the creator of my history. So if my history is part of the cause, that just reverts back to me and my choices.

Ah, but which came first - you or your environment? Obviously, the answer is your environment. You were what you were when you were born because of a large number of causes completely beyond control. At that point, you started making decisions based on who you were. The circle starts there - because you were caused before you could affect anything yourself.

 

[elman]

Hnefi;32612264]By reacting to its environment. Whenever something applies momentum to the rock, it decides to move. In what direction and how much, well, that depends on the momentum it was given. It's a trivial and easily predictable choice, yes, but a choice nonetheless.

No it is not a choice. It is simply reaction to forces such as gravity.

Our choices are usually predictable too, just not as easily so since we take into account far more variables than the rock ever does.

Our choices are not predictible. Unlike the rock we do have choices.

But you are claiming that what you decide was not caused by external influences.

I claim external influences are not the only cause.

That is like a cog in a clock saying that it causes the other cogs around it to turn. The cog is right, of course, but fails to recognize that it itself is turning because of other cogs. In effect, the cog is just an extension of other cogs, helping to form and affect a chain of events but not creating any events ex nihilo on its own.

True of inanimate object. Not true of human beings.

Great. And those reasons are a clear indication that you are, at least to a very large degree, deterministic.

I am influenced by many things and what I do is caused by many things, and I am one of them.

Really? What, exactly? And if you say soul, please define what soul is.

The supernatural part of a human being.

But you cannot choose what you are, because that choice is completely dependent on what you are when you are making the choice. See - it goes around in circles. You can't change yourself without taking into account who you already are, which is what determines what you will choose to become. And you have been formed by your history.

And I helped form my history.

Ah, but which came first - you or your environment? Obviously, the answer is your environment. You were what you were when you were born because of a large number of causes completely beyond control. At that point, you started making decisions based on who you were. The circle starts there - because you were caused before you could affect anything yourself.

True and I still am one of the causes of who and what I am.