Freemasonry

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Albion

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Nor objectivity.
That's probably correct.

But would you agree that a fundamental philosophical or theological difference exists between Masons and mainline Christians for those who care to look into it more deeply?
No. Masonry is not a religion and doesn't impose any doctrines upon its members except possibly in the case of some really hardcore fundamentalists who, for example, take exception to simply being present with Christians of other denominations (not other religions) while an invocation is given. Or who think that the organization is wrong because it does NOT preach and teach Christianity.

Maybe that is what those people insist upon in all areas of their own lives, but most Christians do not take such extreme views and consider them essential or, if not, God is being mocked, etc. Also, you asked about "mainline" Christians in your post, so if we stick with that proviso, I really don't think there is an issue.

There is a well-known lecturer against Masonry whose main gripe is that he was asked to not preach Jesus by inserting a testimonial into the lines he was assigned to say during some of the Masonic ceremonies. Is that unreasonable of the organization? Does it mark Masonry as hostile towards Christianity or that it teaches that all religions are equally good and valid? I don't think so, yet I've heard those accusations many times.
 
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topher694

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ok, rather than cut and paste everything, take a look at this from a previous thread on the topic:

LINK

Specifically take a look at posts #280 & #286 for information directly from freemasonry materials. Including an alarming passage that basically paints Lucifer as the good guy and God as the evil one.

Posts #288 & #292 are part of an oath (one of many) that requires one to defend freemasonry at any cost ("whether he be right or wrong")

Post #294 I call out and give examples of the pattern of behavior of misquoting people to drastically change the meaning of what they said and deflect the attention away from freemasonry and onto the one questioning it.

Note: The overall defense to directly referenced freemason in that thread material boils down to: "Nah-uh... that ain't true!" Nothing of any substance to actually defend it.


I mentioned this in that thread and I'll say it here too. With this sort of material associated to freemasonry, why would any Christian take a chance being associated with it? There are much better, less questionable, Christian-based organizations one can join if that's what you are looking for. It's simply not worth the risk.
 
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Albion

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ok, rather than cut and paste everything, take a look at this from a previous thread on the topic:

LINK

Specifically take a look at posts #280 & #286 for information directly from freemasonry materials.
Neither of them deals with or quotes from Masonic materials. As explained before, a personal opinion posted by an individual who happened to be a Mason does not constitute "Masonic material." And when the material is never used as Masonic instructional material, it absolutely is wrong to represent it as official Masonic teaching.

Posts #288 & #292 are part of an oath (one of many) that requires one to defend freemasonry at any cost ("whether he be right or wrong")
That is not true.

Post #294 I call out and give examples of the pattern of behavior of misquoting people to drastically change the meaning of what they said and deflect the attention away from freemasonry and onto the one questioning it.
When misrepresentations of Masonry are posted, it should be expected that they may be challenged, just as we see done here with any other topic.

Note: The overall defense to directly referenced freemason in that thread material boils down to: "Nah-uh... that ain't true!" Nothing of any substance to actually defend it.
When a charge that has no basis is posted, no one should expect that there will be a lengthy and specific refutation since there usually is nothing to refute.

Sometimes it's possible to do so, depending on what's alleged, but when the claim is just made up out of thin air, there's nothing to rebut.

I mentioned this in that thread and I'll say it here too. With this sort of material associated to freemasonry, why would any Christian take a chance being associated with it? There are much better, less questionable, Christian-based organizations one can join if that's what you are looking for. It's simply not worth the risk.
Then that's your choice. What's been done on this thread, however, is the slandering of Masonry.

If someone doesn't care to join--for any reason--that's all there is to the matter. What's more, on this thread there has not been any urging of anybody to consider joining the Masons.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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That's probably correct.


No. Masonry is not a religion and doesn't impose any doctrines upon its members except possibly in the case of some really hardcore fundamentalists who, for example, take exception to simply being present with Christians of other denominations (not other religions) while an invocation is given. Or who think that the organization is wrong because it does NOT preach and teach Christianity.

Maybe that is what those people insist upon in all areas of their own lives, but most Christians do not take such extreme views and consider them essential or, if not, God is being mocked, etc. Also, you asked about "mainline" Christians in your post, so if we stick with that proviso, I really don't think there is an issue.

There is a well-known lecturer against Masonry whose main gripe is that he was asked to not preach Jesus by inserting a testimonial into the lines he was assigned to say during some of the Masonic ceremonies. Is that unreasonable of the organization? Does it mark Masonry as hostile towards Christianity or that it teaches that all religions are equally good and valid? I don't think so, yet I've heard those accusations many times.
Well the Catholic Church, at least, disagrees with you. I have not really looked into it other than on this thread. So I value your perspective.

The "irreconcilable principles" that the Church believes Freemasonry possesses include a "deistic God", naturalism, and religious indifferentism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal...he_Church_on_Catholics_joining_the_Fraternity


Therefore the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.


Declaration on Masonic Associations Nov 26, 1983
 
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Albion

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Well the Catholic Church, at least, disagrees with you. I have not really looked into it other than on this thread. So I value your perspective.

The "irreconcilable principles" that the Church believes Freemasonry possesses include a "deistic God", naturalism, and religious indifferentism.
None of that it true. Those are claims that have been made over the years, but they aren't true. The Catholic Church adopted the "indifferentism" one after awhile, and seems to have made it the main complaint. But let try to get a handle on this.

What is "indifferentism?" Does that mean you're tolerant of people's different beliefs and practices, etc.? If so, we normally say that that is a good thing. But can someone literally teach the idea that there are no meaningful differences between competing religions? Yes, and I suppose we'd say that this is an incorrect position to take, but Masonry doesn't do that.

It merely says that men of different denominations and some other religions are free to belong. There isn't any judgment at all about which of those churches, etc. is the right one, if any. Masonry doesn't take a stand on that, just like your local Rotary Club or the American Legion doesn't care what church they belong to when people who are otherwise good citizens are admitted to membership!

So what about a "Deistic God?" Deism holds that there is a God but he's a remote God who created everything but then removed himself from his creation. So, no savior, no churches, no worship of him, none of that except that there is a God. So it's not Atheism.

Is that Masonry's idea of God? No. Absolutely not. Go to a Masonic funeral which some Christians have in addition to the church funeral. You'll see that Masonry believes in a loving, personal God who will reward those who believe and do right while on Earth. That's not a God who's removed from his creation and doesn't have anything to do with us mortals. In addition, and as has already been mentioned, Masonic lodges have chaplains, grace before meals is prayed, and so on. None of that is consistent with believing in a "Deistic God."

The historic reason for the Catholic Church's opposition to Masonry, popular elections, Socialism, and national unity dates back to the 19th century when the Popes were losing the secular power they previously had. No longer could the Popes make or break kings, and no longer could the Papacy hold onto all its territorial possessions. The world was changing and the Popes began issuing condemnations (with claims as to why that was supposed to be a moral imperative, not just raw politics) of everyone who seemed to challenge the old kind of Papacy when it was really influential.

In addition to the above, the Pope was declared to be infallible for the first time in Church history; the Pope condemned the nation of Italy for annexing some of the Papal States; and the Pope decreed (after 300 years) that Holy Orders in the Anglican Church were not valid even though the form of ordination was the same as used by the Catholic Church in England prior to the Reformation.

So that's a lot to cover and more could be said, but thanks for asking.

Therefore the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
Well, as I was explaining, it's a political response, not the religious one, that drove this battle between a declining Papacy and new and rising political forces. But more than that, most of it is moot anyway! Catholic theologians don't believe that Anglican Apostolic Succession is invalid and it took decades even to understand what the Pope was claiming when he issued that one. And then there's this: A Catholic in good standing in his parish can very well join a Masonic lodge and continue to be a communicant in good standing in his Catholic Church, despite the talk of excommunication, etc.

In my city, a man was elected to the parish council (or something like that) at St. Mary's Catholic Church and there was a news release in the paper which gave his resume/background, including saying he belonged to the local Masonic lodge, Free and Accepted Masons #154.

Neither the priest nor the congregation at his church cared at all and he was never barred from receiving Communion. I'm told that it's just about the same in other Catholic parishes.
 
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SkyWriting

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When misrepresentations of Masonry are posted, it should be expected that they may be challenged, just as we see done here with any other topic.

My information came from FreeMasons, Job's Daughters, and Morning Star members. Though I never joined myself.
 
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tturt

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When I was an active member of the female branches for several years, we were very devout believers from different denominations/faiths. We were united with a Bible on our altar and learned from it. Visted numerous other chapters and they were the same. We all accomplished positive goals.

But exited when I learned that any sacred book could be on that altar in our or any other chapter.
 
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