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Original Happy Camper

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You're quoting one person, pretending to know what he's talking about, and from that, defaming tens of millions of Masons and all Masonic organizations out of hand. It's ridiculous. It's immoral. It's ignorant.

It is no different than if you had instead berated all Germans as anti-Semitic because of the Third Reich or all Catholics and their church because of the Spanish inquisition--yet a much better case could be made for either of those because they at least were major episodes in the history of each of these groups whereas Albert Pike was one man and speaks only for himself.

Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike [1871] This is Albert Pikes' 861 page volume of 'lectures' on the esoteric roots of Freemasonry, specifically the 32-degree Scottish Rite. Until 1964, this book was given to every Mason completing the 14th degree in the Southern jurisdiction of the US Scottish Rite ...

Morals and Dogma by Freemason Albert Pike AUTHORITATIVE MASONIC MANUAL ADMITS LUCIFER IS GOD. "The Manual on Freemasonry" written by Albert Pike, the only man to ever be the Head of Washington D.C. Masonry, American Masonry, and Worldwide Masonry, simultaneously.
 
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Albion

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Freemasonry is not anti Christian although there a couple fringe groups of it who are.
I'm curious. Which would those be?

A good friend of mine is a mason & wrote a book on Freemasonry. Still, a Christian should avoid freemasonry it is a brotherhood of man and not the Gospel.
What about belonging to the country club, the parent-teachers organization, the chamber of commerce, the NAACP, or the American Legion?? These all seem to fall into the same category.

To which we have to ask ns There are good charitable Freemason groups like the Shriners: Shriners Children's Philadelphia | Children's Hospital
Philippians 4:8, 1 Thessalonians 5:21
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I'm curious. Which would those be?


What about belonging to the country club, the parent-teachers organization, the chamber of commerce, the NAACP, or the American Legion?? These all seem to fall into the same category.

ARE YOU A FREEMASON?
 
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Albion

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Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike [1871] This is Albert Pikes' 861 page volume of 'lectures' on the esoteric roots of Freemasonry, specifically the 32-degree Scottish Rite. Until 1964, this book was given to every Mason completing the 14th degree in the Southern jurisdiction of the US Scottish Rite ...

Pike, you may not know, was quite a national figure and there's a monument to him on the Washington DC mall along with those to our greatest heroes. So the book was given--but ONLY IN THE SOUTHERN JJURISDICTION--which encompasses only a minority of the USA, and Pike was a Southerner. The point is that nothing Pike wrote is expected of any new member nor is it taught to them; it's his own reflections on various matters, the "light bearer" thing being only a tiny entry in this otherwise enormous book.

"The Manual on Freemasonry" written by Albert Pike, the only man to ever be the Head of Washington D.C. Masonry, American Masonry, and Worldwide Masonry, simultaneously.
There is no "Worldwide Masonry" for him to have headed.
 
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Albion

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I provided the link.
Ah. I see it now. It's from the Catholic Church's TV network, which reprinted it from one Catholic diocese's publication, and was authored by one priest from second-hand sources.

I asked because it was so full of errors, but obviously this article doesn't come with much in the way of "official" credits. ;)
 
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SkyWriting

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There is a "cottage industry" for people writing tales allegedly exposing Masonry, but this sort of second-hand information is false, and it's surprising that normal people eat it up as though it came straight from the Encyclopedia Britannica. LOL That said, there isn't much more that can be done here if all we're going to be dealing in are accusations by people who have no personal knowledge of Masonry but are saying "I read somewhere that ...." claims written by people with no particular credibility. Any serious questions from serious inquirers would be different, of course.
My aunt and uncle were in FreeMason and my long time high school girlfriend was fully active in Job's Daughters. Mom was in Eastern Star of course. The family has the common symptoms of Freemason families and I had an inside view of the mental stress results spoken about in publications. I'm not aware of the normal people you speak of.
 
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Lukaris

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I'm curious. Which would those be?


What about belonging to the country club, the parent-teachers organization, the chamber of commerce, the NAACP, or the American Legion?? These all seem to fall into the same category.


They do not have rights of initiations & advanced degrees in which a participant of any possible faith might profess alongside another. I would not take some oath in which a Koran is just as handy as a Bible for a moral foundation. I believe the intentions of the Masons are good but a Christian mixing their faith with an elaborate, eclectic philosophy seems dangerous. In Orthodoxy we are not supposed to be Freemasons. Being a Freemason, I believe, does not make one a non Christian but it could. I will PM you my friend’s book on Freemasonry & have to reference it for the fringe groups he mentioned, I do not have the info on hand & am doing some work at present.
 
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Albion

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They do not have rights of initiations & advanced degrees in which a participant of any possible faith might profess alongside another.

Masonry is NOT open to "participant(s) of any possible faith."

That aside, I think you missed the point. People who say that Masonry is about ''a brotherhood of man and not the Gospel," as you did are saying that Christians should not belong to ANY society or association that is not expressly about the Christian faith.

That excludes almost everyone who is quick to criticize Masonry.

But of course they exempt themselves from that judgment and do not say the same about all the country clubs, professional societies, civic organizations, fraternities, honor societies, and etc. they belong to while they make accusations against Masons for having done nothing different from what they themselves do. IOW, it's a false charge. And yes, some of those societies DO have initiation rites and levels of membership.

I would not take some oath in which a Koran is just as handy as a Bible for a moral foundation.
Nor would any Mason that I know, and I wouldn't do it myself.

I believe the intentions of the Masons are good but a Christian mixing their faith with an elaborate, eclectic philosophy seems dangerous.
Maybe, but I certainly favor prospective members of any Masonic lodge to do all they can to study up on the organization rather than just join "cold."

However, if that is done...and all the myths and misinformation that is available from anti-Masonic sources and uninformed gossipers are taken account of and seen for what they are worth, there's no reason not to go ahead.

And, by the way also, if you were to join but then find out later that there's something you cannot abide in good conscience, you can just withdraw as you would any other club.
 
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Lukaris

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Masonry is NOT open to "participant(s) of any possible faith."

That aside, I think you missed the point. People who say that Masonry is about ''a brotherhood of man and not the Gospel," as you did are saying that Christians should not belong to ANY society or association that is not expressly about the Christian faith.

That excludes almost everyone who is quick to criticize Masonry.

But of course they exempt themselves from that judgment and do not say the same about all the country clubs, professional societies, civic organizations, fraternities, and etc. they belong to while they make accusations against Masons for having done nothing different from what they themselves do. IOW, it's a false charge.


Nor would any Mason that I know, including myself. What's your point?


Maybe, but I certainly favor prospective members of any Masonic lodge to do all he can to study up on the organization rather than just join "cold." However, if that is done...and all the myths and misinformation that is available from anti-Masonic sources and uninformed gossipers are handled and seen for what they are worth, there's no reason NOT to go ahead.

And, by the way also, if you were to join but then find out later that there's something you cannot abide in good conscience, you can just withdraw as you would any other club.

I just spoke to my friend whose book on Freemasonry you pointed to an opinion on it as being rubbish. My friend who is not Christian & a mason told me that Freemasonry might flow from a Christian foundation it allows an oath taker to become a mason whether he has a Bible or a Bagavad Gita.

I could care less whether you want to advocate or criticize freemasonry, I had no idea it would be this big a deal. Have a nice day.
 
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topher694

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As I said I know little about them. I assumed 33rd degree is higher than 32nd degree which previous poster said revealed their secret. What I meant was I found it curious that a clergyman would remain a Mason upon learning the claimed 32nd degree secret about Lucifer. Call me a skeptic.
At this point one has been heavily invested in it, and the rites/rituals that you have been invoking for years have been preparing you for it all along... it's not that much of a stretch. Plus, since it's invite only if the others have any reason to believe you wouldn't be fully on board they simply wouldn't invite you.
 
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topher694

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I just spoke to my friend whose book on Freemasonry you pointed to an opinion on it as being rubbish. My friend who is not Christian & a mason told me that Freemasonry might flow from a Christian foundation it allows an oath taker to become a mason whether he has a Bible or a Bagavad Gita.

I could care less whether you want to advocate or criticize freemasonry, I had no idea it would be this big a deal. Have a nice day.
One of the oaths they take is to deflect any criticism of freemasonry in exactly this manner.
 
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Albion

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I just spoke to my friend whose book on Freemasonry you pointed to an opinion on it as being rubbish.
I don't recall King calling it "rubbish," and I probably wouldn't say that myself. But he made a lot of good points that seem correct based upon your friend's own background and interests. Plus the points about the favorable reviews is worth considering, and King's mention about the skimpy, even superficial, nature of the book.

Did My friend who is not Christian & a mason told me that Freemasonry might flow from a Christian foundation it allows an oath taker to become a mason whether he has a Bible or a Bagavad Gita.
In India, I suppose that happens, but in this country Masonry is overwhelmingly Christian; and although a lodge that is composed of a lot of Muslims, let's say, would be allowed to have a Koran on the "altar" when being initiated, what does that say about all the Masons who aren't affected by that technicality? Well, nothing.

And even if that happened, those Muslims would have to put up with a thousand times more Christian themes around them while in lodge.

I could care less whether you want to advocate or criticize freemasonry, I had no idea it would be this big a deal. Have a nice day.
It always is. Just let one person ask "What's Masonry all about?" and sorts of Conspiracy Theorists come out of the woodwork to report, with all due seriousness, every myth and lie about Masonry that they read online or heard someone say.

P.S. I did like "talking" with you. Hopefully, we'll meet again over a different topic!
 
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Lukaris

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I don't recall King calling it "rubbish," and I probably wouldn't say that myself. But he made a lot of good points that seem correct based upon your friend's own background and interests. Plus the points about the favorable reviews is worth considering, and King's mention about the skimpy, even superficial, nature of the book.


In India, I suppose that happens, but in this country Masonry is overwhelmingly Christian; and although a lodge that is composed of a lot of Muslims, let's say, would be allowed to have a Koran on the "altar" when being initiated, what does that say about all the Masons who aren't affected by that technicality? Well, nothing.

And even if that happened, those Muslims would have to put up with a thousand times more Christian themes around them while in lodge.


It always is. Just let one person ask "What's Masonry all about?" and sorts of Conspiracy Theorists come out of the woodwork to report, with all due seriousness, every myth and lie about Masonry that they read online or heard someone say.

P.S. I did like "talking" with you. Hopefully, we'll meet again over a different topic!

Ok, fine. May the Lord’s peace be with all of us ( John 14:27).
 
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topher694

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ARE YOU A FREEMASON?
Notice he will not answer this question. I personally believe that the answer is yes. This topic has come up before and he always defends it vigorously using all of the classic freemason tactics to deflect and discredit any criticism (which they take oaths to do).

Although this forum has the ability to directly quote another user easily, and he uses it all the time. When this subject comes up he as miraculously forgotten how to use the quote feature, then misquoted others and attacked them for something they didn't say. Which always, conveniently enough, distracts from a direct confrontation of the very questionable foundations of freemansonry. This is on purpose. Again, they actually take oaths to do this and defend freemansonry at all costs (I've read these oaths for myself)

It's already happening here. Take a close look at the subtle manipulations and deflections that are happening.
 
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Albion

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Notice he will not answer this question. I personally believe that the answer is yes.
It's a mark of someone who doesn't have a very solid argument, and knows it, to then turn to attacking the other poster personally.

None of us should go down that route and, in fact, it's against the Christian Forums rules.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Ah. I see it now. It's from the Catholic Church's TV network, which reprinted it from one Catholic diocese's publication, and was authored by one priest from second-hand sources.

I asked because it was so full of errors, but obviously this article doesn't come with much in the way of "official" credits. ;)
Nor objectivity. But would you agree that a fundamental philosophical or theological difference exists between Masons and mainline Christians for those who care to look into it more deeply?
 
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topher694

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It's a mark of someone who doesn't have a very solid argument, and knows it, to then turn to attacking the other poster personally.

None of us should go down that route and, in fact, it's against the Christian Forums rules.
Another great example of what I'm talking about. I'm only talking about what you have done directly to me previously on this forum. Shall I post the link to that thread?
 
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Original Happy Camper

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It's a mark of someone who doesn't have a very solid argument, and knows it, to then turn to attacking the other poster personally.

None of us should go down that route and, in fact, it's against the Christian Forums rules.

It is a simple question not an attack
 
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