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Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity?

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George the 3rd

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bluemarkus,

Your photo of the sign that says "GOD LESS AMERICA" carries the clear implication that Masons and Freemasonry are contributing if not primary factors to what some perceive as a turning away from religious or spiritual values within American society.

I am personally offended and feel it has NO PLACE in this discussion. I hope you would reconsider this offensive insult.

George
 
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Rev Wayne

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This was a comment I saw earlier, to which I had planned to respond, but was distracted away from it by all the sidetrackers.

(1) The point we were discussing at the time was the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It's not that one or the other was being neglected; it's just that the APPLICABLE one of the two Jesus mentioned was the one brought in, because "love your neighbor as yourself" is comparable to the Golden Rule, both of them being reflexive in manner of statement.

(2) I clearly indicated in each context where I mentioned it, which commandment Jesus indicated was first, of the two commandments Jesus gave as the most important.

(3) Although it was not the immediate point of discussion at the time it was brought up, I think it's still a valid point to make, that nobody has shown that Freemasonry does also teach the first of those two commandments as well. For instance:

And that does not even begin to cover all the places where it CURRENTLY appears in Masonry, which are so numerous I could not list them here.

I did find a significant piece where the same thing is elaborated upon, though:

But what establishes this even more is the common appearance of the expression which Masonry uses, at the very heart of Christian expression as found in Christian devotional and theological writings contemporary with its first appearance in Masonry:

Help us to love thee supremely, and our neighbors as ourselves. Give us our daily bread, and something for those who lack.
(God’s Minute: A Book of 365 Daily Prayers Sixty Seconds Long for Home Worship, 1923, p. 156)

Thou art Faithfulness, and I trust in the performance of thy promises. Thou art the supreme God, and I desire to love thee supremely now and for ever.
(James Stonhouse, Every Man’s Assistant, and the Sick Man’s Friend, 1819, p. 82)

Believe me, these were only a sample of the 10 pages or so that pulled up with a search of this phrase. There's a simple reason Masonry would contain a phrase so commonly found in Christianity of the same time frame, just as there is a simple reason Albert Mackey and other well-known Masons are found citing well-known theological treatises from their time and earlier. Masonry is and has always been made up primarily of Christian believers, and in its earliest times, of only Christian believers. Small surprise to find so much Christian expression within it.


 
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Rev Wayne

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Clearly, those who posted the sign did not intend it to be a negative message.
Pardon me for utting in here, ut did anyody esides me notice that apparently a letter was missing? There IS a pretty ig gap, after all, leaving an indentation of the word "less" while oth of the other letters are flush with the edge of the anner.

Also, "godless" is one word, and there is no hyphen after "God." Maye you'd like to rethink this, luemarkus?
 
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Rev Wayne

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no wonder your threads always get such a long tail...
Of course they do. It takes time, after all, for me to respond to all this persistent ignorance--you know, things like making points of non-issues about disabled Masons and banners with missing letters.
 
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O.F.F.

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George the 3rd said:
Well, Mike, you have heard from all three, care to make either a retraction or apology, or both?

No, because I cannot tell from your individual answers that you each answered one of my SPECIFIC questions, which was:

O.F.F. said:
. . .have you ever seen or heard of a wheelchaired, handicap man accepted for initiation as an Entered Apprentice?

I will not presume by your replies, that this question was answered.

If each of you can show adequate proof of this, then I will gladly apologize. But please note that such an apology would not exonerate Freemasonry from being incompatible with biblical Christianity. It would only mean that they made better accommodations to deceive more men into believing their heretical teachings.
 
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Rev Wayne

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have you ever seen or heard of a wheelchaired, handicap man accepted for initiation as an Entered Apprentice?
Apparently this is a repeat of this question?


I would like to point out that immediately after this question, you closed out the post with:

Official Grand Lodge documentation to support such findings would suffice.
So apparently this means you are looking for "Grand Lodge documentation" for what someone observes in the local lodge?

Sounds about as impossible to produce as the famous law enforcement description of a suspect who is a "tall, thin, short, fat, bald man with curly hair."

You don't seem to be interested in doing anything but presenting questions that can't be answered without accusation, in true Pharisaical style. All you have just said with this comment is, "I don't really care what you answer, because I'm going to ignore the answer and make more accusations anyway."

So the real question here is, why bother answering your questions at all?
 
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Rev Wayne

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Here is the "official Grand Lodge documentation" that this can indeed happen:

A Mason must be of sound mind and body, which does not mean that you cannot be physically handicapped, many Masons are. (KY GL webpage)
And for the other question of whether we had ever "seen or heard of" a wheelchaired, handicapped man being accepted for initiation as an EA:

So there you go.
 
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Rev Wayne

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From the Grand Lodge of Belgium Q & A page:

 
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Rev Wayne

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Now THIS is interesting: guess who apparently was made a Mason in the Pre-Grand Lodge era?



 
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Rev Wayne

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MASONIC BIOGRAPHY AND DICTIONARY: COMPRISING THE HISTORY OF ANCIENT MASONRY, ANTIQUITY OF
MASONRY, WRITTEN AND UNWRITTEN LAW, DERIVATION AND DEFINITION OF MASONIC TERMS, BIOGRAPHIES OF EMINENT MASONS, STATISTICS, LIST OF ALL LODGES IN THE UNITED STATES, ETC. COMPILED BY AUGUSTUS ROW, K.T.

According to the author's notation that this comes from "Nat. Freemason," I take this to mean Mackey's masonic magazine, "National Freemason," published for a short time in the 1800's. I have seen references to the magazine before, but have never located it online. I have located a source which has the entire collection compiled, for sale, and have pondered whether that might be a purchase worth making.

I do know that Mackey is not bashful about nailing Masonic writers for improper research, particularly Dr. Oliver, whom he otherwise gives high marks as perhaps the most knowledgeable person on Masonry that has ever been known. For that reason, I have to assume the information would have been checked out thoroughly before Mackey would have published it.

I have not been able to locate it, though. I tried to see if I could find it in any Luther source material, but a browser search on Martin Luther hardly pulls up anything by Luther, but plenty on Martin Luther King, Jr.

I do remain skeptical as a matter of course, until something further may be verified concerning this. The only thing I've found so far was a page of links and remarks on freemasonrywatch.org, who note that "several architects of the Reformation" belonged to "occult societies." They name Melancthon as one of them, as well as Luther, so apparently they at least accord some form of legitimacy to the information. They also have many relevant links on their site, suggesting that Luther was a Rosicrucian. Although I almost retch at the thought of posting it, the link to their page is found here:

http://freemasonrywatch.org/protestantism_freemasonry.html

The only thing I remain skeptical about so far, which I will have to have better information to resolve, is the mention of Luther's son at both the beginning and the end of the piece in Row's account. At the beginning, he has the son as a young boy asking questions of his father, in 1536; at the end, after Luther tells his son he joined, the article concludes:

The article doesn't say how old the son was in 1536, but he would have had to be 223 years + whatever that age was. Of course, it could always have been either a misprint or a mis-statement.

Happy reading, anyway, if you get more light, please share it, as will I.
 
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Rev Wayne

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I managed to find a genealogical page, mostly in German, with this notation in the margin:

I had considered whether perhaps the 1759 date of death was perhaps a descendant who bore the same name and perhaps that might explain the apparent anachronism. But this note has the "Martin Gottlieb Luther" dying in the same year, 1759; yet it also lists his ancestor as Paul, Martin's youngest son. Since the story clearly is about a "son" by that name, and yet also carries a notice of his death in 1759, I'd have to take the story as bogus, unless there is other information on which to base the attribution of his membership.
 
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Rev Wayne

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I suppose we all wonder about such well-known personalities from time to time. I did some real digging before concerning John Wesley, after finding out that he had preached at the Masonic Lodge in Savannah during his brief sojourn in Georgia. I even found one source that said his name was on the roll at a lodge in England, giving specifics of date and location. It turned out to be a false lead, and it was discovered to be so by Wesley's own hand. He was a meticulous diary-keeper, and on the date he supposedly had been made a Mason, his diaries prove he was many miles away. One thing I did turn up with the research, there was a Samuel Wesley, son of John's brother Charles, who most definitely WAS a Mason, for he was made the Grand Organist of the UGLE.

And I did notice that someone incorrectly stated on another thread here, that John Wesley "often spoke against" Freemasonry during his ministry. I didn't address it at the time at all, but the statement is simply not true. I have a complete collection of all of John Wesley's writings, and one thing I do know is, if John Wesley had an opinion on any subject at all, he wrote something about it. And if he had an opinion on something that caused him to "speak against it often," then he also wrote about it often. With Freemasonry, that is not the case, he only made one remark, and it a passing one, in the entire 14 volumes of his writing. In his journals, he made a passing mention that he had come across a book by someone purporting to reveal "the secrets of Masonry." It's reallly hard to make much of the comment at all.
I have found one website that makes the claim, but they cite nothing by him and offer no reference or link to elaborate on the claim, which simply lumps him within a group of Christians leaders that the site says "spoke against Masonry."

Another site quotes the Wesley comment in this manner:

British Methodism has been less favorably inclined toward Freemasonry, perhaps reflecting John Wesley's observation about the lodge: "What an amazing banter on all mankind is Freemasonry."
"Banter" is simply good-natured teasing, and it appears Wesley was not saying anything negative; yet someone seems to think the comment was a negative one. If Wesley were knocking Freemasonry, he would have made more than this one comment; and he surely would have said something stronger about it than to remark upon its good-naturedness.

And after further reading at the freemasonrywatch site, I see they are already mounting the charge to blame the whole Reformation on Freemasonry. It'll be interesting to see how they manage to do this and manage to balance it in any way with the typical anti-Catholic stance that seems to shared by many antimasons.

How anyone can make such a claim with absolutely no evidence is one of the secrets of antimasonry that we will perhaps never be considered worthy of learning. Even more of a wonder, is how the claim can be made when all someone has to do to find the truth of the matter is to read his journals (they are online in several places, as are all his writings), where he openly describes visiting and preaching at Masonic lodges.

Not to worry, though, the anti's do not have a monopoly on misinformation about people's membership/non-membership in the lodge. Erdemont Lodge #5865 in the province of Kent makes this statement concerning their history:

Joining members of the Lodge have included Bro John Wesley, a direct descendant of the founder of Methodism.
Now there's a REAL wonder for you: a "direct descendant" of a man who had no children.
 
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