• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dont try to coat Freemasonry with symbols and values of Christianity, because in truth it's origins have nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity.
I would simply post a reminder here that when we speak of Freemasonry, we do not speak of the many quasi-Masonic and pseudo-Masonic bodies that have proliferated in semi-imitation of the fraternal order of Freemasons, only those which would be recognized and accepted by the United Grand Lodge of England, the "Mother lodge" of Freemasonry, and considered by them to be "regular" or legally constituted lodges.

Having said that, I would also address the above remark by pointing out the wide variety of theories that people have expressed about the Freemasons. Much of that speculation is due to a failure to differentiate between the modern speculative Masons and the old Operative Masons. What we speak of here when we speak of origins in Christianity, is the speculative fraternity, which had its official founding at the uniting of lodges in England to form the UGLE, and has a traceable history prior to that, of only 2 to 3 centuries at best.

I tend to think that the operatives, who were responsible for cathedral-building all over Europe, were Christians who began to pull away from the Catholic Church through a set of varied circumstances. One of these circumstances was, their involvement in presenting the popular morality plays. All the trade guilds were involved in these dramas. Masons would have been a natural fit, as the general lot of the populace were illiterate, and Masons were obviously among the more educated, considering the requirements of their trade. At some point, the Catholic Church began to have misgivings about the morality plays, and soon forbade their priests from participating in them. (The priests, also of an educated bearing, were a logical fit as actors also.)

When they adopted this stance, it would naturally catch their attention that MAsons were involved in the plays. That in itself would have been enough to create a rift, but the seeds of reformation were also beginning to sprout during the same time frame. Masons were more inclined to move away from the control and domination of the Roman Church, which would widen the rift. When persecutions began during the Inquisition, Masons were among the persecuted, simply because the church reasoned that their secrecy simply "had" to mean they were up to no good. In actuality, the secrecy verly likely had its roots in the reformation also, and it would be a natural thing for those who chose to be freethinkers to hide the fact from a church that would persecute you for it.

Someone on the forum recently was scoffing at the idea that Masons were persecuted during the Inquisition, and even tried to suggest that Masons were controlling the Jesuits--a ludicrous proposition, as that would mean Masons were persecuting Masons and demanding that they reveal Masonic secrets.

There have been many Masonic historians who have held to some extreme ideas about Masonic origins, pointing to ancient Egypt, some pointing to the Essenes of Jesus' time, others taking it all the way back to Moses, or to Noah, or even Adam. Albert Mackey was one of these for quite some time, but in his later years he began to see that there simply was no trail that took the speculative craft back to such ancient roots. When he came to this realization, he made a public retraction of such theories, which he published in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry.

I found this comment from Mackey, which comes from his history, and is quite a frank acknowledgment for him, considering what he says:

In respect to the question of religious toleration, it is very evident that in]the matter of a creed there was a very great difference between the two systems, the Operative and the Speculative. The early Operative Freemasons were, of course, Roman Catholics. After the Reformation in England they became Protestants, but strict adherents to the church. This is apparent from the older and the more recent Constitutions (Mackey, History, p. 855).
 
Upvote 0

AndrewCS

Active Member
Jun 7, 2007
277
9
✟22,937.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would simply post a reminder here that when we speak of Freemasonry, we do not speak of the many quasi-Masonic and pseudo-Masonic bodies that have proliferated in semi-imitation of the fraternal order of Freemasons, only those which would be recognized and accepted by the United Grand Lodge of England, the "Mother lodge" of Freemasonry, and considered by them to be "regular" or legally constituted lodges.

We could also say the same about the Church,

The man-made denominations that have caused wars. Most churches / denominations worship Christ and that is why they are referred to as a CHURCH.

Most non-believers in Christ see church as anything that worships Christ.

As a non-believer in Freemasonry, I see ALL Freemasons as Freemasons.

God Bless :wave: :wave: :wave:
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see ALL Freemasons as Freemasons.
So do I. But I have enough discernment to know that not all groups who CLAIM to be Freemasons necesarily ARE. So the only ones who are part of that group of "ALL Freemasons" are the ones who REALLY are.

You seem to have the discernment to recognize that not all who claim the name of Christ do so in sincerity, even as Jesus knew when He stated that "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the Kingdom of heaven."

The sad thing is, in your zeal to accuse, you don't seem to be able to see when the same principle is at work with other groups.
 
Upvote 0

AndrewCS

Active Member
Jun 7, 2007
277
9
✟22,937.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps as you study, grow and mature you might find that many of the symbols and values of Christianity have their origins in beliefs and systems that predate Christianity by centuries. And perhaps as you study, grow and mature you might find that a forum is for exchanges of ideas and insights, not a pulpit for pontification.

He who is last will be first :amen:
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
After taking two master level classes on World Religious History, I was curious if anyone could tell me the orgins of the Judaic religion
I would consider not knowing that after two classes grounds for a refund.;)


Adam & Abraham are two worth looking at by their (Jews)own account.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Early Semetic tribal religions. Before Jehovah was God of the Universe, he was a tribal deity and Lord of the desert.
By the common name El. It appears in various forms in every language of every culture around Israel. It is also the source of an interesting assortment of derivatives. Of the various forms of the word in Israel, one of them is Elah, said to be the source of the later Allah. Many common Hebrew names were formed with El as a suffix. Among these is Immanuel, which is exactly as the NT translates it, Imma--nu--el, which literally is "with--us--God," or "God with us."

Thus El, the name of a Canaanite deity, is the origin of names for God in the three major religions of the world, Judaism (Elohim), Islam (Allah), and Christianity (Immanuel).
 
Upvote 0
J

JasonV

Guest
By the common name El. It appears in various forms in every language of every culture around Israel. It is also the source of an interesting assortment of derivatives. Of the various forms of the word in Israel, one of them is Elah, said to be the source of the later Allah. Many common Hebrew names were formed with El as a suffix. Among these is Immanuel, which is exactly as the NT translates it, Imma--nu--el, which literally is "with--us--God," or "God with us."

Thus El, the name of a Canaanite deity, is the origin of names for God in the three major religions of the world, Judaism (Elohim), Islam (Allah), and Christianity (Immanuel).

Actually I was talking about Yahweh Rev. Yahweh was also a Canaanite deity (one of El's seventy sons) and had temples dedicated to him from Egypt to Syria.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually I was talking about Yahweh Rev. Yahweh was also a Canaanite deity (one of El's seventy sons) and had temples dedicated to him from Egypt to Syria.
Well, it's really not an either/or question, they are both used in reference to Israel's God. The earliest references are to El, or Elohim, or El-Elyon, or other combinations, and probably was the name brought to the promised land along with Abram when he left his home. The shift comes in Exodus, when Moses receives instructions from God about what He is to be called.

But (TO EVERYONE) unless whoever introduced this line of discussion has some point to be made, isn't this all deviating from the topic?
 
Upvote 0

AndrewCS

Active Member
Jun 7, 2007
277
9
✟22,937.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So do I. But I have enough discernment to know that not all groups who CLAIM to be Freemasons necesarily ARE. So the only ones who are part of that group of "ALL Freemasons" are the ones who REALLY are. .

I find this rather entertaining.

How do we discern the differences between the various SECRET SOCIETIES unless we have been exposed to the GROUP and understand their vision and ethics.

I am MOST INTERESTED to understand how you got that discernment to understand whom “REALLY ARE” Freemasons.

You seem to have the discernment to recognize that not all who claim the name of Christ do so in sincerity, even as Jesus knew when He stated that "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Please do not attempt to label me as judging. God gave His people the Bible as a source to understand His word, which refers to the Christian ways and how each of us are to become and that is - more Christ like.:bow:

By comparison, Freemasons are a SECRET SOCIETY and their oaths that are taken are sworn to secrecy. Having never been involved in any Freemason activities and therefore not privy to this secret information regarding codes of conduct nor do I understand whom such oaths are sworn to as that too is secret, even from the the Freeemasons. Therefore my discernment is that God tells me to stay away from ALL FREEMASON PRACTICE. But I am positive that my God loves the sinner but not the sin.

The sad thing is, in your zeal to accuse, you don't seem to be able to see when the same principle is at work with other groups.

Once again Rev you are judging me. If there are people out there that are claiming to be Freemasons and are not, who’s responsibility is this ? Whom should it be taken to ?

Because my God offers an open and totally transparent communication (not secret), I understand the directions that God has given me, my brothers and sisters. It is the same message for all, open & transparent.

Conclusion:
If there are rogue Freemasons out there – well that is a problem for the Freemasons and those defending the Freemasons.

If there are false prophets of Christ operating, I TRUST GOD as it is His problem and I trust ( faith) Him enough that I lay down my sword and lift a song worship HIM. That is HIS instruction to us, that is the clear and transparent message for all that love Christ.:bow:

The GREAT I AM will sort out the false prophets not me.

:prayer: You are a great and almighty GOD Lord. Thank you Lord that you are King of Kings and Lord of Lords.:prayer:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

AndrewCS

Active Member
Jun 7, 2007
277
9
✟22,937.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then why not let the GREAT I AM decide whether or not Freemasonry is compatible with His Plan and "lay down your sword and lift a song worship HIM"!

George,

That is a tad assuming don’t you think?

We had great worship last night thank you.

God has a purpose for us all, He knew us before we were conceived in the womb.

My purpose for the time that I spend on Christian Forums is to fellowship with other Christians. This is scriptural. :clap: :clap: :clap:

What is your purpose George?


God bless
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You seem to have the discernment to recognize that not all who claim the name of Christ do so in sincerity, even as Jesus knew when He stated that "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Please do not attempt to label me as judging.

"Discernment" is not "judging." You did not understand me correctly. I would think you'd take the remark for the compliment that it is.
Once again Rev you are judging me.
How is it judging to comment that "You SEEM to be. . . " in regard to anything?? Perhaps I'm not as careful at times as I should be in this regard, but I learned a long time ago in reading Ben Franklin's autobiography to try to be judicious in choice of words. His advice was to use words like "perhaps" or "it seems," which open doors to dialogue rather than close them. So if I say "you don't seem," or "it seems," please recognize it as being said with the same intent as "correct me if I'm wrong, but. . . ."

Because my God offers an open and totally transparent communication (not secret), I understand the directions that God has given me, my brothers and sisters. It is the same message for all, open & transparent.
With almost as many interpretations as there are "brothers and sisters."

If there are people out there that are claiming to be Freemasons and are not, who’s responsibility is this ? Whom should it be taken to ?
Well, since you took it upon yourself to assert with vehement insistence that certain groups are, I did the natural thing anyone else would do under the circumstances in a debate format: I stated my challenge to the assertion and took it to the one from whence it came.

If there are rogue Freemasons out there – well that is a problem for the Freemasons and those defending the Freemasons.
The only time it becomes a "problem" is when someone starts claiming that they are something other than rogues, or starts presenting information about rogues in the pretense that it pertains to Freemasons. When someone does so, the simplest approach is the direct one, especially in a debate format, of taking it to the one who is presenting the case.


I am MOST INTERESTED to understand how you got that discernment to understand whom “REALLY ARE” Freemasons.
For one thing, three years AS a Freemason, and four or five years of thorough research into Freemasonry. But please don't think I'm expressing only my opinion, or that I'm asking you to take my word for it. Here are two links where this matter is laid out in good detail. The fact is, that none of the groups you have been posting about and claiming they are Freemasons, would be accepted by any Grand Lodge of regular Freemasonry anywhere in the world that I know of.

Here is the first link, with the basics: http://www.masonicinfo.com/recognition.htm

But this site really doesn't tell you a whole lot of specifics regarding what bodies are and what bodies are not "regular."

A much more detailed site can be found here: http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/esoterica/index.html

And in regard to OTO and similar groups and some of the individuals you have mentioned here, the closing comment on the page at this link says:

These authors do not, in any fashion, represent the teachings or beliefs of recognized Freemasonry.

The first link points out that recognition is the key; the second points out that those you have posted information for are not regular, and also explains why.

Explore some other pages on the site at the second link, they are quickly becoming recognized as a website with a straightforward interest in presenting the truth, and as one with quite an abundance of information presented. And I must say, they are more generous than most Masonic websites would be in calling groups like OTO "esoteric" groups rather than clandestine or irregular or pseudo-Masonic.

 
Upvote 0

AndrewCS

Active Member
Jun 7, 2007
277
9
✟22,937.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then why not let the GREAT I AM decide whether or not Freemasonry is compatible with His Plan and "lay down your sword and lift a song worship HIM"!


Hey George,

Would be interested to know what “other” church you belong to ?

I see on you CF Homepage it states

Christian, Denomination Or Other Faith Icon:
Other-Church

Blessings
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the interest of salvaging something resembling an on-topic discussion, I will re-establish the point at which it was last recognizable as such.

The following quote, among others, was posted two pages ago, post #235:

Masonry is but another name for that Brotherly love which should unite all men under God's heavens, who are all children of the same Almighty parent, wheresoever dispersed ; and this love will teach men, first of all, to desire the welfare of mankind—of all mankind—and to promote that welfare by thought, word, and deed. By and through this love alone can the citizen acquire true patriotism, the religious man true religion. Masonry can and will educate man to the higher morality of a citizen of the world, which indeed includes the lower morality of a citizen of a state, but in its perfected and ennobled form, purified from the prejudices, the disadvantages to which we have alluded. It can and will educate the religious man to that higher religion—to that "religion in which all men agree," which indeed embraces the lower religion of creeds and sects, but divested of all intolerant, uncharitable views and prejudices. Such is the mission of Masonry; and he who does not find his heart warmed with love toward all mankind should never strive to be made a Freemason, for he cannot exercise Brotherly love.—Anon. (Anonymous, “What is Freemasonry,” The Freemasons’ Monthly Magazine, ed. Charles W. Moore, Vol. XXI (1862), p. 77-78).
And my comment following that particular quotation:

The author of this article ties together the exhortation to brotherly love with “the religion in which all men agree.” And what could be more true? When Jesus dealt with the answer to someone’s challenging question, “Who is my neighbor?” after He had just uttered the Golden Rule, He did so by telling them about the Good Samaritan—a man who went against the grain of his fellows, and helped the man rather than pass him by. Thus it was the man who showed compassion for someone the most UNLIKE him in person and outlook, who most exemplified love of neighbor—which is exactly what the article urges, a love “purified from prejudices.”

From that point, the thread deteriorated into sidetracks and personal remarks. Does this mean there is no real response, and the derailing is then deliberate?

One thing is for sure, playing the race card was not the answer. For one thing, the opening sentence was taken as a declaration of what now is--when in fact it states:

"Masonry is but another name for that Brotherly love which should unite all men under God's heavens"

Masonry sees and aspires for the moral ideals it considers important. But stating that brotherly love "should" unite all men, is a far cry from making a sweeping proclamation that we have "arrived," or any such thing. Nor is it a proclamation that we have arrived, if we speak of "desiring the welfare of mankind" or "promoting that welfare in thought, word, and deed." And he clearly indicated that he was speaking of such moral precepts "in their ennobled and perfected form" when he was speaking of it being "purified from the prejudices" and "disadvantages" of which he spoke.


Both systems, the church and the lodge encourage morality, both of them fall short of it. Neither one can reproach the other for not having achieved all that it teaches in moral precepts. As regards racism, the finger was pointed at Masonry, as always occurs with finger-pointing, when we point one finger, the rest point back at us. The church has fared little better, if any. Having pastored a church with an African-American family in its membership, I know the pressures they faced, and they are very real. Hardly a day went by that they did not come across someone of their acquaintance who was trying to talk them into coming back to the African-American church they had attended. Having been involved in pulpit exchange with a good African-American friend in our church's conference, I know the struggles he faced from the pulpit committee in his church for allowing me and other white ministers to preach in their church's pulpit. Anyone wishing to make accusations of racism must recognize, we have racism on both sides. I've seen it firsthand

Besides, since we speak of all regular Freemasonry, how true would the accusation be in Masonry in other places? Prince Hall started, after all, as a result of situations in the U.S., and Prince Hall recognition was at the heart of the accusation. That addresses only U.S. lodges. But enough of this matter, which was the beginning point of derailing this thread. No matter which way one might address the issue, it is enough of a tangent to suggest it be made the subject of another thread.

I don't downplay the issue, I just suggest that it is a significant sidetrack from where the discussion had been going. And since the direction it was going is at the HEART of both this thread and of the whole range of accusations, and since some significant points were raised, it would be a serious error for us to allow it to get sidetracked once again and not delve into these things while they are before us in a manner we have seldom managed before.

So taking it as a given that none of us have arrived or are perfected, and that neither the instiution of Freemasonry nor the institution of the Church has solved the racial issues they face, can we return and address this remark, in its context? That is, this was only one quote of many, and an overall point was made concerning "the religion in which all men agree." Am I to take it no one had any response to anything else that appeared in that post? Am I to take it as well, that the sidetrack was intentional, for that very reason, that there was no response? If not, why was there only the one direct response, and that one off-topic? There's an old saying that "silence implies consent," is that what's happening, no one has any disagreement at all with what posted?

To refresh the memory if anyone would like to see this thread get back to the real topic:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1182104&page=24
 
Upvote 0

George the 3rd

Prestidigitator
May 2, 2004
107
1
✟234.00
Faith
George,

That is a tad assuming don’t you think?

We had great worship last night thank you.

God has a purpose for us all, He knew us before we were conceived in the womb.

My purpose for the time that I spend on Christian Forums is to fellowship with other Christians. This is scriptural. :clap: :clap: :clap:

What is your purpose George?


God bless

When requested, to bring the candidate from darkness to light!

As far as "laying down my sword", I have no sword to lay down, being one who believes that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. I too desire fellowship with other Christians, but as I believe that the body of Christ is know by the "head" I do not try to discern who is or is not "of the body". I let the GREAT I AM do that. IF that is a tad assuming I don't know how it is so.
 
Upvote 0

George the 3rd

Prestidigitator
May 2, 2004
107
1
✟234.00
Faith
Hey George,

Would be interested to know what “other” church you belong to ?

I see on you CF Homepage it states

Christian, Denomination Or Other Faith Icon:
Other-Church

Blessings
Andrew,

"Belong to?"! I am not trying to sidestep your question, but really, if I do not belong to God, I belong to nothing. Humans may be affiliated with one organization or another, they may not be affiliated with a group at all. The Body of Christ knows no boundaries, it is contained in no building or location. And most of all, it knows no label or moniker.

I was raised in the Lutheran Church, so what? I sought God in Spirit and in Truth. That was where God touched me. Personal, One to one.

I'm just one leaf on the branch of the "Vine". That's enough for me, is that enough for you?

George
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.