Free Will

[enoch son]

As for Paul, Let's see Oh- that's right Acts 9-15 "Go, for he is a CHOSEN instrument of MINE," sound like free will to me. WHO PICK WHO. Let's take that one just alittle farrer. Rev. 13-8 "And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, every one whose name has not been writtern from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB WHO HAS BEEN SLAIN. " Vers, 9 "If any one has ear, let him hear." WHO PICK WHO!

 

[flyfishing]

Correction brother! it was adams making the wrong choice, not the fact that he had a choice to make.

Paul who wrote almost half the books of the nt and recieved the gospel by revelation wrote in phillipians 3:13-14 that he did not think he had "arrived" but one thing he did was use his free will to press toward the mark.. Study the word press it defenitely involves an act of the will.. Amazing we have somehow surpassed even the writers of the bible...


trish yes all we ever recieve of salvation was done on the cross when he said it was finished..salvation-deliverance is not only present but most certainly futuristic.. One day the trump shall sound and the fullness of our deliverance will be revealed.

As paul said he counted himself not to have apprehended of that which was already accomplished at calvary...

Hi enoch sons please dont ignore the scripture in phillipians 3:13,14..

 

[enoch son]

You stop! 15 "Let us therefore, as many as are PERFECT, have this attitude: and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by the same standard to which we have attained." And vers. 12 Paul states that God laid hold of him not the other way around. This is my point! Vers. 15 and 16 I do not see the perfection talked about by Paul in these vers.. Yet it can be reached. Therefore something is wrong in the teaching the foundation is not right.
The Rev. vers. I qouted IF ADAM HAD FREE WILL WHY WAS THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE WRITTERN FROM THE FOUNTAIN OF THE WORLD!

 

[PatrickM]

Therefore something is wrong in the teaching the foundation is not right.

Are you saying if we who are born-again Christians believe there IS free-will, we are not, in fact saved?

Also, please explain why and how, on occasion, however rare, you DO, in fact sin? It must be an act of free-will on your part, or else is it God making you sin?

 

[enoch son]

Hold on Pat not at all. The other side of that coin is all men are saved. That Jesus died for all. We are the frist fruits. I don't know one way or another on that. But that is a teaching also. What I'm saying is that there is a higher state of being in Christ. The fullness. Before Adam fell he was no mindless robot and had a different free will or something. Remeber till both eve and he ate they did not know they were naked. Heb. talks at lenght about the washing of the conscience.
As for sin. There are two way to look at it. From below or from above. One is dead the other is a heavenly place. The act of sin was done before the foundation of the world. And so was the answer the cross. If this is not so then why the lamb book of life in Rev.13-8 before the foundation of the world? What I'm trying to say is that Adam free will or our free will hung on the cross. And that it is the root of sin. And for man to think that he is in control just does not feel right. I'm not happy one way or another yet in either camp. I just feel there's more.

 

[flyfishing]

You stop! 15 "Let us therefore, as many as are PERFECT, have this attitude: and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by the same standard to which we have attained." And vers. 12 Paul states that God laid hold of him not the other way around. This is my point! Vers. 15 and 16 I do not see the perfection talked about by Paul in these vers.. Yet it can be reached. Therefore something is wrong in the teaching the foundation is not right.
The Rev. vers. I qouted IF ADAM HAD FREE WILL WHY WAS THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE WRITTERN FROM THE FOUNTAIN OF THE WORLD!

Have you not read where god threatens to blot out names out of the Book? I guess God has an eraser..


I want you to explain what you mean when you say that there must be something wrong with the teaching, the foundation must not be right.

And you seem to have a convenient eraser also, willing only to discuss the verses pertinet to your theology.

 

[enoch son]

I believe you are asking about Rev. 20-10-15. Isn't it interresting that the only one that are tormented day and night forever and ever are the devil,the beast, and the flase prophet. It seems that all the other do not suffer this fate. In less you want to add to the word brother, interesting. Lets look at it farrer it's seems death and hades are throw into the lake of firer before the one's who name are not in the book of life. so the second death as all ready happean. SO HOW CAN ONE BE IN HADES AND HAVE THE SECOND DEATH IF THEY ARE BURNED UP ALL READY?
Like I said I have never study this before. I've have seat in the pew's and listern to what was taught and yet I just blow a hole in HELL FIRER AND BRIMSTONE! Interresting!

 

[4glory]

enoch son, you make some interesting points... I have been going to church for years.. I am a christian and believe that Jesus died for our sins... the carnal christians baffle me and I wonder at times if I am classified as one (carnal) at times.

I believe that some people (christians) do things against God's will purposely and also don't try hard enouogh to walk the christian walk through life because they want it both ways or "have their cake and eat it to". They know or assume they are heaven bound. They ask for forgiveness etc. I encoutered many saved christians who have very little faith, very carnal and act (sanctified) when convenient yet they are saved but living both lives...

Any opinions on the ramifications of the carnal christian? I've researched in the bible but can't find any ramification for carnal christians. Will they still go to heaven if not, anything you can reference in the bible????

 

[enoch son]

Yes! God had me in Hebrew Chap. 12 this morning. There are several disciplines that can come upon them.
1. The "Chasten" Heb. 12-6
2. Trials Lot's of vers.
3. Affiction or suffering Lot's of vers.
4. THE SCOURGING (it means to flog) I have never see this before today Heb. 12-6
5. The burning or refining by firer (works) lost or gain
"God will not be mock it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
6. Body destruction 1 Cor. 5-5
7. The vessel of honor or dishonor in His house 2 Tim. 2-20-21
That some that I have find. Hope this helps.

 

[flyfishing]

I believe you are asking about Rev. 20-10-15. Isn't it interresting that the only one that are tormented day and night forever and ever are the devil,the beast, and the flase prophet. It seems that all the other do not suffer this fate. In less you want to add to the word brother, interesting. Lets look at it farrer it's seems death and hades are throw into the lake of firer before the one's who name are not in the book of life. so the second death as all ready happean. SO HOW CAN ONE BE IN HADES AND HAVE THE SECOND DEATH IF THEY ARE BURNED UP ALL READY?
Like I said I have never study this before. I've have seat in the pew's and listern to what was taught and yet I just blow a hole in HELL FIRER AND BRIMSTONE! Interresting!

No actually it was rev 3:5 i was refering to.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed with white rainment: and i will not blot out his name out of the book of life,but i will confess his name before my Father and the angels.

guess god does have an eraser!!!

You have your chain of events confused,you are taking scriptures to say something they dont say and your logic is flawed, convoluted.

Interestingly enough JESUS spoke on hell more than any other nt writer. Matthew 13:41 calls hell a furnace of fire and all those who offend will be thrown there.

mt 5;22 uses the word ghenna to describe what we term hell. 3 times Christs warns those in that chapter alone to avoid hell fire... A place of torment.. twice it is used in matthew 23.15 and 33.. In mt 25:30 hell is also described as outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Twice again in chapter 25 ..Mt 25 :41-46 is an interesting scriptrure. Read what is said about hell, an everlasting punnishment and for what???


mk 9:43 continues givig a description of ghenna or hell. Three times it is mentioned in this chapter also. vs45,47.. Luke 12;5 continues the warning. Jesus even tellsa story of lazarus and what it is loike for those there in luke 16.. Three times in this chapter the place of torment is referred to.


I dont care what greek term is used the place is the same. Btw be careful about your doctrine taking away from the words of christ...

But i do think debating with you is somewhat a waste of time since i cannot still get a straight answer regarding phillipians 3:13-15..

Btw its not only the devil and etc who are thrown into the lake of fire..

Rev 20:15,, WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life wa cast into the lake of fire...

 

[enoch son]

I don't care what greek term is used? Why because it does not fit your doctrine. As for phill. Try post 83. Talking about not answering how about my first post.
As for the lake of firer it still reads (vers. 14) no matter how you try to rewrite it. That Hades and death are throw in frist. So I guess God firer doesn't burn them up?

 

[flyfishing]

I don't care what greek term is used? Why because it does not fit your doctrine. As for phill. Try post 83. Talking about not answering how about my first post.
As for the lake of firer it still reads (vers. 14) no matter how you try to rewrite it. That Hades and death are throw in frist. So I guess God firer doesn't burn them up?

No because whether ghenna is used or another term it is speaking of the same place. There is only one place of judgement for the unjust.

What is post 83??LOL

Ok rev 20:14 , i will give you the literal interpertation not some confused sequence that you are making up.

It says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If you look at waht is happening here you see the final judgement is taking place for the wicked. The books are opened and the book of life is brought out and all that is not written in the book is cast into the lake of fire. The second death spoke of in v14 is total and eteternal seperation from God.. As adam and eve fell they died. Becase they were seperated from God.

The verse in rev 3:5 no comment??

 

[enoch son]

So the ones blot out are not the frist fruit of the creation so. Did Jesus die for all in all? Did he fail? I say no! So what is the lake of firer? Could it be GOD! Heb. 12-29! And God burns up the bad and some get in by the skin of there teeth. Who do you think we are going to teach each other?

 

[flyfishing]

So the ones blot out are not the frist fruit of the creation so. Did Jesus die for all in all? Did he fail? I say no! So what is the lake of firer? Could it be GOD! Heb. 12-29! And God burns up the bad and some get in by the skin of there teeth. Who do you think we are going to teach each other?

No enochs son.. God is a consuming fire but he is not the lake of fire.. Some do make heaven by the skin of thier teeeth. As christ said of gehenna (or hell as referred to today) it is a place of everlasting torment...


the blood is so precious and the cost so high, to reject it is a great sin worthy of this judgement..

If the second death was annhilation as you suggest why send Christ?? He came to seek and save that which was lost and paid that terrible price because he knew the reality of hell fire...

An exhortation, i find it hard to read your posts. Please try to use better grammar and seperate your thoughts with paragraphs..

 

[deg]

God is a consuming fire but he is not the lake of fire

Why is this such a hard revelation for the men and women of God?

Alpha and Omega? Beginning and end? All sinners will have their end in God. Even if you believe that most of creation are endlessly tormented in God's Eternal Plan, you must admit that their end is in Him.

Deu 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Isa 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Indeed, flyfishing, who shall dwell with the devouring fire, this fire which makes sinners afraid? This place which makes sinners afraid is truly something to be feared, that is fore sure, because I don't think entry into such an environment shall be pleasing at all. This "hell" will be a mighty place of consuming fire, and who can walk in such a place? Would we not be destroyed quickly, knowing our feeble frame? Who can dwell with such everlasting burnings?

Listen, and The Word shall tell you who dwells with this FIRE:

Isa 33:15
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16
He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

The empowering Fires that fell on Pentecost. The fearful Fires that fell on Sinai. The purifying fires of the Refiner. The accepting Fires that fell from Heaven onto the offerings. The baptism in Fire and the HOLY SPIRIT. The Fires issuing out from the Throne of God Himself, THE RIVER OF FIRE (katharos RIVER) which issues out, these are all the same fire, the same essence, the same substance with THE SAME PURPOSE! Behold I showeth a mystery unto you:

The fire and brimstone of God, nay, the very essence of God, is to PURIFY.

(Brimstone = THEION = "Divine Incense with the POWER TO PURIFY")

God's purposed Fire was never for torment, although we must see darkness before we may enjoy the morning. It is to purify creation through the long, difficult road of an Age of Ages of Firery Destruction. Many are already covered, being purified by the Fire which we may now STAND IN, as righteous Sons of God. Saints, covered by the Blood, immersed in the Fire of God, standing the Presence through our High Priest and King. We stand in the Presence of these Everlasting Burnings continually having the dross lifted away. If you do not stand in God's Presence this very second, then you have missed a major purpose of the Holy Spirit. We have confident access now, into the Place where the Fire dwells, into the Life, into the Holiest of Holies. We are covered by the PURE UNDEFILED Blood of the Lamb of God.

(eternal/everlasting/forever =Aeonial = greek word we've tried to translate into FOREVER and EVER which can't be done so, it's not a quantitative word, but rather a qualitative one! It's an adjective defining TYPE not TERM! It's trying to defining GOD HIMSELF!)

 

[flyfishing]

Just one of Christs many references to eternal punnishment i will mention.

matthew 25:46. And theese shall go away into everlasting punnishment but the righteous into life eternal.

See God is not a respecter of persons, we are all eternal beings. Just the righteous choose to go to heaven and the wicked to hell...

BTW that post was just the reason we have "rules" to interpert scripture. It is a perfect example of someone taking a truth and applying to "thier pet doctrine'.. The scripture is of no private interpertation , the whole must be looked at..

 

[enoch son]

Hi deg. I was wondering when I would see you here agian. Rom. 11-26 " and so all ISREAL will be saved:" Look like God needs to rethink that vers. or something. But you know I must not being reading it right.

 

[flyfishing]

Hi deg. I was wondering when I would see you here agian. Rom. 11-26 " and so all ISREAL will be saved:" Look like God needs to rethink that vers. or something. But you know I must not being reading it right.

Nope you read it right. Let me hear though please what you think it means in regards to the conversation..

 

[deg]

Matthew 25:46=>

EVERLASTING = AEONIAL (in Grk)= TYPE NOT TERM, categorical not measurative, qualitative not quantitative.

It is punishment in eternal realms, of eternal scale and implication. It in no way represents a length of time, and that is why the translation "forever" is a severe english shortfall.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

2 Degoriah 506:19
And this is life eternal: that they might live on and on forever, with no end.

You see the vast difference? Time is not the important thing here, it is "quality and calibre." God is outside time: time is not the issue, He could in blinks wipe away time as a medium for His purposes. The present is the Eternal. "Think not of tomorrow." God dwells right here, right now. He doesn't dwell in tomorrow (although He will when tomorrow comes, if tomorrow comes). RIGHT NOW IS THE ETERNAL! We dwell in ETERNAL REALMS RIGHT NOW! In the Twinkling of an Eye, the snap of the finger, RIGHT NOW! Not 5 seconds from now, nor 5 seconds ago, but right now.

The righteous can abide in the Everlasting Burnings with joy and strength, right now. The corrupt sinners cannot, they perish in such heat. This Fire "reveals" the difference in the quality of character, because that which cannot withstand the inferno perishes. It is the same fire but different effects. The same Presence, different response.

Here is an illustration in Exodus:

Exodus 24:16-18
16. And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17. And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
18. And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Moses, a righteous elect man of God entered the same Presence which the Isrealites saw as a consuming fire, but to him it was an inviting pillar of cloud.

Our intercourse with the Presence of God is based on our understanding, just as grace is only accessible through faith. If we step into God without the covering blood of Jesus, we are stricken in great, debilitating fear of so great a judgement. If we come in with the understanding that Jesus has covered us, we need not have any fear, but rather, confidence. What separates these two conditions? The spiritual state of the subject. Same Presence, same people, different knowledge. I have much to say, but I fear I may cause a "bored board."

 

[flyfishing]

Yup how can one measure eternity? It still lasts forever..