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Free Will

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deg

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But you see what I am saying about the Lake of Fire and Our Father's being? They are one and the same. He is the Lake of Fire. I hope and pray that my revelation has become clear to you (to be brutally honest, I was introduced to this concept by my uncle, but it was repeatedly confirmed by the Lord by quickening etc).

Everyone, every single person, is thrown into the Lake of Fire and immersed in the purifying Presence of God. Many followers of God are already salted with Fire. (Mark 9:49) In the Second Death some powers (such as death) are destroyed. Some beings are hurt. Others are not hurt at all (Rev 2:11), and I imagine they are rejoicing in that fire, just as I rejoiced at the conception of the "terror of the Lord." (2Cr 5:11)

Brothers, about Romans 11:26, I have no direct revelation about Israel. It is clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Israel holds preeminence in God's great Heart. They fulfil a purpose of rule and authority that none other may fill. We, my dear brothers, as God's House coming out of Heaven are part of spiritual Israel, and we may actually be descendents of Ephraim as part of national Israel. I cannot prove this, but I believe the Western World is the vine growing over the wall (land over the ocean, Gen 49:22, check it out, and also Ephraim's blessing in Ch 48). But apart from national suppositions, and in light of this "universalism", it is clear that regardless of God's infinite ability to reconcile all of creation to Himself that Israel holds a place of high desirability and honour. They shall rule and reign with Him, and shall be saved because of God's unlimited faithfulness to Israel's faithful father.

No, I don't think that all creation will taste the same Grace that Israel tastes. Mainly, I think that God has something very special planned for Israel (both national and spiritual) and something very merciful planned for the unbelieving creation. At whatever time, in whatever way, I have a feeling that the Lord's redemptive capacity goes beyond that which we have given Him credit for, but doesn't extend into what we know as "salvation for all." I cannot go further than that but guess with careful deliberation.
 
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PatrickM

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deg said:
Matthew 25:46=>

EVERLASTING = AEONIAL (in Grk)= TYPE NOT TERM, categorical not measurative, qualitative not quantitative.
Well, according to 2Cor4:18 it is a measure of time, "For the things which are seen are temporary (a measure of time, not qualitative), but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionia = eternal, a measure in contrast to the temporary, above).

It can, indeed be used as unmeasurable duration, as God has no beginning or end, but this is still, for our finite understanding, a "time frame".
2 Degoriah 506:19
And this is life eternal: that they might live on and on forever, with no end.
Ok, I'll bite. What is this in reference to? What is "2 Degoriah"?

You see the vast difference? Time is not the important thing here, it is "quality and calibre." God is outside time: time is not the issue, He could in blinks wipe away time as a medium for His purposes. The present is the Eternal. "Think not of tomorrow." God dwells right here, right now. He doesn't dwell in tomorrow (although He will when tomorrow comes, if tomorrow comes). RIGHT NOW IS THE ETERNAL! We dwell in ETERNAL REALMS RIGHT NOW! In the Twinkling of an Eye, the snap of the finger, RIGHT NOW! Not 5 seconds from now, nor 5 seconds ago, but right now.
Indeed, God is all that. But we are not. Therefore, God must communicate with reference to our "finite-ness", hence the use of time as a reference.
 
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PatrickM

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deg said:
Why is this such a hard revelation for the men and women of God?
Perhaps because it is not found in Scripture?
Alpha and Omega? Beginning and end? All sinners will have their end in God. Even if you believe that most of creation are endlessly tormented in God's Eternal Plan, you must admit that their end is in Him.
2Thes1:9, "these shall be punished with everlasting (aion, singular)destruction from the presence of the Lord . . ." Although God does fill all in all, this eternal punishment will be out of His presence.
God's purposed Fire was never for torment, although we must see darkness before we may enjoy the morning.
Scriptures' use of "fire" is many, not a singular meaning. God uses fire symbolically to describe how our faith is purified, to be sure.

However, regarding "the lake of fire", in Scripture the article "the" is found preceding this term to denote a definite object, as opposed to an analogy. And this "lake of fire" is not a universal location, but was, per Jesus, Matt 25:41, "prepared for the devil and his angels." This is a specific purpose, not an analogy, and is not meant for the saints.
(eternal/everlasting/forever =Aeonial = greek word we've tried to translate into FOREVER and EVER which can't be done so, it's not a quantitative word, but rather a qualitative one! It's an adjective defining TYPE not TERM! It's trying to defining GOD HIMSELF!)
What Greek dictionary are using for this? There is no "aeonial". You use it to make an inference, by using "al" to imply your definition. However, all known Greek dictionaries use only two words for "ages, eternal, etc."; "aion"=singular, and "aionos", plural, "ages."
 
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flyfishing

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PatrickM said:
Perhaps because it is not found in Scripture?

2Thes1:9, "these shall be punished with everlasting (aion, singular)destruction from the presence of the Lord . . ." Although God does fill all in all, this eternal punishment will be out of His presence.

Scriptures' use of "fire" is many, not a singular meaning. God uses fire symbolically to describe how our faith is purified, to be sure.

However, regarding "the lake of fire", in Scripture the article "the" is found preceding this term to denote a definite object, as opposed to an analogy. And this "lake of fire" is not a universal location, but was, per Jesus, Matt 25:41, "prepared for the devil and his angels." This is a specific purpose, not an analogy, and is not meant for the saints.

What Greek dictionary are using for this? There is no "aeonial". You use it to make an inference, by using "al" to imply your definition. However, all known Greek dictionaries use only two words for "ages, eternal, etc."; "aion"=singular, and "aionos", plural, "ages."

Great post patrick...
 
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flyfishing

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PatrickM said:
Aw, shucks, you're just saying that . . . 'cause it's true! :D

BTW, I couldn't quite make out the last two words of your previous post. ;)
So, you're saying hell is for everlasting punishment?

Yup it would be so convenient if otherwise. We will have to answer for the blood of men we do not warn...

Thanks for the humor.. :D
 
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enoch son

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Lets go to romans chap. 11. Please don't say that when Jesus cry out from the cross "my God my God" that it was the Father who had forsaken Him. I believe the right was to tanslate that would have been. To the disciples, Ha guy's I told you I had to do this why are you walking away?
So God is not everwhere interesting. So much for the omipresence doctrine. Let throw that one out.
Rom. chap. 11
1. Jews were harden by God. (free will uh vers. 25) And oh look it a mystery but you guy's got that one figure out. NOT!
2. All Israel will be saved (vers. 26 there that free will agian) And oh by the way when God say all he means all even ESAU whom He hated.
3. The gifts and calling (vrs. 26)
4. VERS 32 is a killer don't read it. TO ALL
5. VER. 36 I rest my point.

IF GOD DOES NOT SAVED ALL LIKE HE IS GOING TO SAVED ISRAEL THEN ROMANS 12-21 "DO NOT BE OVERCOME BY EVIL, BUT OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD."
 
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flyfishing

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enoch son said:
Lets go to romans chap. 11. Please don't say that when Jesus cry out from the cross "my God my God" that it was the Father who had forsaken Him. I believe the right was to tanslate that would have been. To the disciples, Ha guy's I told you I had to do this why are you walking away?
So God is not everwhere interesting. So much for the omipresence doctrine. Let throw that one out.
Rom. chap. 11
1. Jews were harden by God. (free will uh vers. 25) And oh look it a mystery but you guy's got that one figure out. NOT!
2. All Israel will be saved (vers. 26 there that free will agian) And oh by the way when God say all he means all even ESAU whom He hated.
3. The gifts and calling (vrs. 26)
4. VERS 32 is a killer don't read it. TO ALL
5. VER. 36 I rest my point.

IF GOD DOES NOT SAVED ALL LIKE HE IS GOING TO SAVED ISRAEL THEN ROMANS 12-21 "DO NOT BE OVERCOME BY EVIL, BUT OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD."

Enoch, first CHRIST on the cross quotes Psalm 22 a messianic psalm which was a prophecy and must need be fullfilled..
Secondly it was CHRIST the Son calling out to God the father because for the first time they were seperated, why? Because the sinof the world was laid on CHRIST.. I would have to look up the scripture BUT GOD the Father says i turned away for a moment. One thing About THE LORD he is of purer eyes than to behold sin...

This in no way takes away from God being omnipresent..

Your opening staement was false, a wrong interpertation and the rest is too hard to bother arguing..

I believe the scripture when it says all isreal shall be "saved".. This does not neccesarily equate salvation, the same word is translated deliverance btw.. But if you are suggesting that all isreal somehow gets a second chance then you are reaching for things that are frankly not supported in theese or any other verses...
 
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Jim B

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C. S. Lewis on free will:

"God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata – of creatures that worked like machines – would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free." ~Mere Christianity
 
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PatrickM

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enoch son said:
Lets go to romans chap. 11. Please don't say that when Jesus cry out from the cross "my God my God" that it was the Father who had forsaken Him.
Well, after this, Jesus said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit," Luke 23:46. He must have been referring to the Father in all His statements on the Cross.
So God is not everwhere interesting. So much for the omipresence doctrine. Let throw that one out.
Psalm 139:7,8, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? if I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

Jer 23:24, "Can anyone hide himself in secret places, so I shall not see him?, says the LORD (YWHW); "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.
2. All Israel will be saved (vers. 26 there that free will agian) And oh by the way when God say all he means all even ESAU whom He hated.
Actually, Israel is Jacob's new name, hence Israel is Jacob's decendents, not Esau's (Gen 32:28). They are two separate lines. Esau is NOT included in Israel's line, as they were brothers!
IF GOD DOES NOT SAVED ALL LIKE HE IS GOING TO SAVED ISRAEL THEN ROMANS 12-21 "DO NOT BE OVERCOME BY EVIL, BUT OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD."
Verse 20 answers this, the context is our behaviour regarding our enemies, has NOTHING to do with salvation.
 
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deg

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Perhaps because it is not found in Scripture?
I agree, God is most Holy, and I believe it is the absolute Holiness of the Lake of Fire which is consuming. Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, into "Thine Own Consuming Self!" (George MacDonald)

Alright brothers, I won't struggle with you anymore on this. I have felt this truth pressed upon me time and time again, but I cannot show properly what I touched. I have only one more thing to say about the qualitative vs quantitative focus of the word Eternal, after which I shall leave this alone.

The things which are seen and temporal are measureable. The things which are unseen, according to our capacity to measuse, are not. They are. "I Am That I Am." "He changes not." "The One Who Inhabits Eternity." Who we are (as defined by soul and spirit) is the eternal element of our being, and is indissolubly linked with the kingdom we are now in. Flesh is not an eternal kingdom, nor the realm of flesh; they that follow the flesh alone are under the kingdom of satan. It seems that God's purposes deal with bringing our person (soul and spirit) into conformity with His. These things which are eternal, the things which through time and flesh He is perfecting, are the substance and material of the Heavenlies, and more fittingly, Eternity. It is our qualities which He is perfecting, He does not care about how long we are in Hell or Heaven, for time is nothing but a passing tool to establish the eternal in us.

We can grow in stature physically and temporally, but to grow in stature spiritually means to develope strengths which have nothing what-so-ever to do with time. They operate above it, but still in it. These things are not measureable, but rather are! This is what the Lord speaks of when He talks of the Eternal (aion, sorry, not aeonial, my bad). It is not a measure of time, which is innappropriately implied in the term "everlasting," but a description of the "kingdom" of punishment, the sphere of existence in which the punishment falls. Tell me though, what happens when the "last farthing is paid?" Why would He have mentioned a last farthing if there is no last farthing?

I think the simple truth is that there is no easy explanation to this question from this plane of thought. His ways are truly higher than my childish attempts to figure out what He is talking about in Acts 3:21. But something inside me wrenches with illness at the thought of everlasting torment, and a temporally permanent, unchangable separation from the only Good in existence. I certainly cannot carefully insert it into my knowledge of the Spirit of God nor His will, for it does not fit. The hues are all wrong!

In any case brothers, I do not wish to weigh you down with my personal pursuit in this area. I understand and respect your point of view, and have not totally ruled out a temporally permanent distance from God. It just seems like there's a piece of God missing in these dotrines and oversimplified concepts of Eternal...Forever...aion. Lord bless you, guys.
 
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speakingthetruth777

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PatrickM said:
Perhaps because it is not found in Scripture?

2Thes1:9, "these shall be punished with everlasting (aion, singular)destruction from the presence of the Lord . . ." Although God does fill all in all, this eternal punishment will be out of His presence.

Scriptures' use of "fire" is many, not a singular meaning. God uses fire symbolically to describe how our faith is purified, to be sure.

However, regarding "the lake of fire", in Scripture the article "the" is found preceding this term to denote a definite object, as opposed to an analogy. And this "lake of fire" is not a universal location, but was, per Jesus, Matt 25:41, "prepared for the devil and his angels." This is a specific purpose, not an analogy, and is not meant for the saints.

What Greek dictionary are using for this? There is no "aeonial". You use it to make an inference, by using "al" to imply your definition. However, all known Greek dictionaries use only two words for "ages, eternal, etc."; "aion"=singular, and "aionos", plural, "ages."
AMen Brother Patrick!
For more articles on hell, here is a website that deals with the definition of aion.

www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/
 
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PatrickM

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deg said:
I agree, God is most Holy, and I believe it is the absolute Holiness of the Lake of Fire which is consuming. Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, into "Thine Own Consuming Self!" (George MacDonald)

Alright brothers, I won't struggle with you anymore on this. I have felt this truth pressed upon me time and time again, but I cannot show properly what I touched. I have only one more thing to say about the qualitative vs quantitative focus of the word Eternal, after which I shall leave this alone.

The things which are seen and temporal are measureable. The things which are unseen, according to our capacity to measuse, are not. They are. "I Am That I Am." "He changes not." "The One Who Inhabits Eternity." Who we are (as defined by soul and spirit) is the eternal element of our being, and is indissolubly linked with the kingdom we are now in. Flesh is not an eternal kingdom, nor the realm of flesh; they that follow the flesh alone are under the kingdom of satan. It seems that God's purposes deal with bringing our person (soul and spirit) into conformity with His. These things which are eternal, the things which through time and flesh He is perfecting, are the substance and material of the Heavenlies, and more fittingly, Eternity. It is our qualities which He is perfecting, He does not care about how long we are in Hell or Heaven, for time is nothing but a passing tool to establish the eternal in us.

We can grow in stature physically and temporally, but to grow in stature spiritually means to develope strengths which have nothing what-so-ever to do with time. They operate above it, but still in it. These things are not measureable, but rather are! This is what the Lord speaks of when He talks of the Eternal (aion, sorry, not aeonial, my bad). It is not a measure of time, which is innappropriately implied in the term "everlasting," but a description of the "kingdom" of punishment, the sphere of existence in which the punishment falls. Tell me though, what happens when the "last farthing is paid?" Why would He have mentioned a last farthing if there is no last farthing?

I think the simple truth is that there is no easy explanation to this question from this plane of thought. His ways are truly higher than my childish attempts to figure out what He is talking about in Acts 3:21. But something inside me wrenches with illness at the thought of everlasting torment, and a temporally permanent, unchangable separation from the only Good in existence. I certainly cannot carefully insert it into my knowledge of the Spirit of God nor His will, for it does not fit. The hues are all wrong!

In any case brothers, I do not wish to weigh you down with my personal pursuit in this area. I understand and respect your point of view, and have not totally ruled out a temporally permanent distance from God. It just seems like there's a piece of God missing in these dotrines and oversimplified concepts of Eternal...Forever...aion. Lord bless you, guys.
Bro Deg, IMHO much of what you say regarding the "eternal-ness" of God & Christ are true. And you have a grasp of the Holiness of the Father as well.

Perhaps the difference here is when we speak of God, who is Spirit, and a place, which is a "thing".

You definitely express your "groanings" at trying to understand eternal things, which, I'm sure, is something everyone feels as well. It may be that this is a subject beyond all our comprehension?

I appreciate your humble spirit, which in these boards is sometimes missing!

Perhaps we could "endeavor to keep the bond of the Spirit in the unity of peace"?

Take care.
 
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PatrickM

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speakingthetruth777 said:
AMen Brother Patrick!
For more articles on hell, here is a website that deals with the definition of aion.

www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/
Well, brother Berry certainly has some opinions! And no one can accuse him of waivering on these, eh?

Are you trying to "peddle" his ministry??? ;) :D
 
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