Free Will

[Theophilus7]

Frist I have no axe to grind. I just see that your posts have nothing to do with free will?

A curious conclusion. What then do you consider free will to be? I showed you, for example, how the 'clay' plays a role in its formation - either willing cooperation with the Potter's design, or unyielding stubbornness. This is clearly implied in Jeremiah. So your insistence that the Potter is in complete control is invalidated.

The bottom line is the potter is in control. This doctrine of free is not in the book. I have sit and heard it for year's and took it at face value. But I can blow holes in it without even trying.

This is all rhetoric. Ipse dixit. You have still failed to engage with the three biblical illustrations I gave you.

I'm after God's face. I'm going to remove anything that stop's me from getting there. Sense I have not gotting to the point of the high calling I have made up my mind that the foundation is wrong...

THIS THEAD IS NOT FOR THE WEAK. I'M AFTER MEAT!

Since you have yet to coherently present your views on divine determinism (?) or engage with your critics, I'm afraid you have failed to convince me that I am weak or that my position lacks any substance. Appealing to your emotional and pyschological state to solidify your position effectively 'boomerangs' the charge.

- - -

Enochson, allow me to make a few suggestions without being offensive: 1) It would help if you could write in full sentences, 2) pay a bit more heed to your grammar, 3) use a spell checker, 4) structure your posts more clearly, using appropriate line spacing and 5) make appropriate use of the presentation facilities provided by ChristianForums, like the <quote></quote> labels. I mention these points because I find your posts difficult to read and I am not always clear what exactly you are saying.

God bless.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I do not see any difficulty here. You can look at it two ways:

(1) There is coming a time when all of creation will acknowledge that God is the Almighty. But even though the sinner is confronted with this fact, compelled to acknowledge God's existence, forced to admit His divine rights, He continues to choose rebellion in His heart... even though there are no more reasons left to hide behind. The mind of man will be laid naked before the throne of God. It will bow. Sinners will praise Him. Evil men will acknowledge Him for who He is. And yet when every last shred of their defenses has been blown away, when every last argument is refuted, when light has flooded the darkness and the most rabid atheist is left without a fig leaf for covering, shivering and on his knees before the feet of Jehovah, he will still refuse to yield what little power of self-determination remains to Him, because sin is ultimately irrational (it only uses reason as a subterfuge). The Bible does not compel us to believe the sinners will, in their hearts, submit their wills to God's will.

(2) You also need to take into account the possibility of a cessation of free will for those who continue to refuse the love of God. If you do your research carefully, you will find that when people continue to harden themselves, God will eventually "finish them off" (like Pharoah), hardening them beyond salvation. When the clay does not cooperate with the Potter's hands, He turns it into an ignoble vessel. He makes it into an object to contain His wrath. Read Romans 11 carefully in conjunction with Jeremiah. When people blaspheme the Holy Spirit, His power to convict them of sin is withdrawn, and there is no possibility of repentance as a consequence. When people choose to delude themselves, God sends them a powerful delusion. In the end, when the clay will not willingly cooperate with the potter, He forces it into an ignoble vessel into which the terrible river of His wrath will pour and overflow for eternity.

Oh God! Thank you for Christ in me!

As usual, a very Nice Post T7.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Ben Hur: Adam had a stack deck. The tree and the serpent WERE A PLANT.
Lynne; We do became a slave to RIGHTEOUSNESS don't we.
As for the vers. I qouted please read the vers. around them by all means. Most interesting. I had someone tell me the knees bow because it's the end. And I ask, of what eternity? It would seem to me it would be just starting.

Adam had no choice but to eat the forbidden fruit? I don't know about you, but the deck is stacked all the time at my home and I am frequently able to resist the insistance of my wife (though not without consequences ).

 

[Ben_Hur]

You know, I was just trying to get my 4 year old to eat breakfast, and realized there is all kinds of free will going on in my home. He certainly isn't conforming to MY will. LOL

 

[enoch son]

Is anything and everything outside the will of God sin? Some of you who are so wise answer that question. It is a simple yes or no. The answer is Yes. Then it was CRUCIFIED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Man thinks to much of himself. That he is wise.

 

[PatrickM]

Is anything and everything outside the will of God sin? Some of you who are so wise answer that question. It is a simple yes or no. The answer is Yes. Then it was CRUCIFIED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Man thinks to much of himself. That he is wise.

So if I do not ascribe to your theory of God's emperical control over all actions taken by even His children, I am, therefore in sin?

BTW, I do not think I am so wise, just because I believe God has given me, by His sovereign will, the freedom to choose.

Sometimes you make fragmented, non-tangible blanket statements about those of us who do not accept your views. This makes the appearance that it is you who thinks he is the wise one, no?

 

[enoch son]

Pat. I had no doctrine on this matter. Only what I had been taught. God has answer my questions and I can not speak on this matter anymore. Please close this thead.

 

[PatrickM]

Pat. I had no doctrine on this matter. Only what I had been taught. God has answer my questions and I can not speak on this matter anymore. Please close this thead.

I'm totally confused here. This thread has nothing to do with you! I've been reading a few books and wanted people's opinion on "integration psychology".

It may surprise you, but not all things are about you

 

[Jim B]

How can we possibly please God if we do not have free will? Can he be pleased with preprogrammed robots? Unless, of course, we are just toys for divine amusement. If I have no free will, how could I have ever chosen to respond to this post in the first place?

 

[pmarquette]

If we have free will then please explian the following vers.

1. Eph. 4-6 "one God and Father of ALL who is OVER ALL and through ALL and IN ALL." Was not our earthly father over the house , supplier of our needs , and disciplinarian in your life ... did you disobey him ?

How did satan fall ( Isaiah 14 ) ; how did adam fall ( Gen 3-4 ) ; how did Solomon , Saul , Samson , etc. fall .... was it not the same 3 things that satan tempted Jesus with : lust of eyes , lust of flesh , and pride of life ?

2. 1 Cor. 15-28 " And when all things are subject to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL". blessing and curse of the Law : Dt. 28. 1-12 , choices to serve God and be blessed or serve satan and be cursed ... Didn't Joshua & Elijiah upon the mountain instruct the people " choose this day whom you will serve ?"


3. Phll. 2-10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,"
timing .... at the judgement of all men yes , all will bow ; for he has been given to judge the quick and the dead ; in our prayers , in Jesus' name - yes evil must yield to name and blood ; in our testimony - rev. 12.11 yes ; in our evil world ... not yet ..... except we as believers , invoke the name , blood , and power of His Spirit , and take up our cross and go and resist evil in all places and forms ... Mt. 28.18 ; Ezekiel 3.18-24 ; Mk. 11.23-4 ; James 4.7 ; 1 John 5.14-18 ...

4. Rom. 14-11 "for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
I do not see free will here?

the demons believe and tremble ...
those in hell will tremble .... those who sleep in christ will be quickened , and the graves will open .... free to choose or reject the name , the blood , the cross , heaven or hell ...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

How can we possibly please God if we do not have free will? Can he be pleased with preprogrammed robots? Unless, of course, we are just toys for divine amusement. If I have no free will, how could I have ever chosen to respond to this post in the first place?

Great Point Jimbo...
When I was a kid I used to love to play with the little army men.... tanks, jeeps, etc. As I grew older they lost their appeal. They were not real, did not have real life in them, and only did what I made them do.
The idea that we are all just puppets on the stage of creation would seem to be very unsatisfying to God.

 

[enoch son]

Before our time here, a being said "I WILL ACCEND TO HEAVEN". He was cast down. For us to think that by our will we can choose the right path is a sin agianst God. HE CHOOSE US. It can be, and is a form of pride. We are not able in this earthly to do the heavenly. Only Jesus full fill it. I gladly give up will, or freewill, or choice. For the love of God is so much more then what we think. And what you hold on to is nothing in the light that is to come. I'm a slave to Christ and nothing more. Here is a mystery give it up and you will gain more.

 

[charligirl]

If we have free will then please explian the following vers.

3. Phll. 2-10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,"
4. Rom. 14-11 "for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
I do not see free will here?

I think these verses are prohetic, speaking about what will be after Jesus returns - when people are confronted with the real alive mighty and terrifying person of Jesus they just won't be able to help themselves, any more than a person who sticks their fingers in a plug socket can help falling over.

 

[deg]

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Prov 16:9

Enoch, it seems like there's a careful and meticulous interweaving of wills. Is there any purpose to this whole thing if there had been no free will? The truth is that we CAN hinder the work of God. If He has purposed something, it shall be accomplished (make no mistake), but only through the long and arduous work of breaking. His work, once we have stepped outside the garden is to break our independence and pursue a loving relationship of Sonship. There is no relationship if there is no free will, and God would not receive any GLORY. He would have given Himself the Glory, through an automated circuit. Sounds a little dry, doesn't it?

3. Phll. 2-10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,"
4. Rom. 14-11 "for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."

Oh every knee shall bow. EVERY TONGUE SHALL PRAISE HIM! What a great truth, its revelation is mighty. Praise is a motion of adoration, of doting, crying "Hallelujah!" with tears blurring one's vision. It is not an angry and whipped slave muttering "Praise Be to God." We are not forced into it, just as we are not now "forced" into speaking in tongues or prophecy. We can quench the Spirit, and ignore the call of God (some cannot). For MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.

 

[enoch son]

Proverbs 16-4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil". NO FREE WILL. Adam had it and Last it. It is now a crused thing. Adam die all die. Jesus give it up freely and saved all. They will bow before Him because of LOVE.

 

[PatrickM]

Proverbs 16-4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil". NO FREE WILL. Adam had it and Last it. It is now a crused thing. Adam die all die. Jesus give it up freely and saved all. They will bow before Him because of LOVE.

For those of us who believe, and I like the above definition of interwoven, free will, how do you define our actions?

If what we are saying is of God, why would God "make" us say things contrary to His will?

And, according to your theory, there's no room for any other options, i.e. our flesh.

Therefore I certainly hope, then, you're not saying those of us who believe in free will are being controlled by "that other guy"!!!

 

[RevKidd]

I am almost to this conclusion: That no matter what we decided to do on this earth, nothing will change God and His ETERNAL plan. We can argue and debate continously about free will or the lack thereof, but it's not going to change one thing concerning God. I have said this before and will say it again. We are here for Two things. That is to accept Christ or deny Christ, and to spread the Gospel.

We worry so much about the "WILL OF GOD", when his will is too know Him. All the other things in life are really, when you think about and consider the ETERNAL perspective, in vain. The beginning of time till the end of time as we know it will not even be measurable in when eternity hits.

I believe firmly that God has all things in control. All powers and authority are in place by God. Think about Joseph. When he revealed himself to his brothers, it was not because his brothers sold him into slavery, rather it was God who ordained it all. Why, so that God's plans could be carried out.

My stand is that we have free will on this earth. That God allows us to do as we wish, make our decisions. However, my free will has no bearing on God's plans. So I have to ask myself. Do I want to be a part of God's plans or do I not. If I do, my steps will be ordered of God. If I don't want to be a part of God's plan, then eternal seperation from God and torment I will have.

 

[LynneClomina]

here is a great article...

http://www.the-highway.com/Myth.html

Lynne

 

[enoch son]

Let's talk. I believe or let say I'm thinking about a view that I never had before. 1 Cor. 2-16 " For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he made instruct him? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. I believe, we as men and woman of the Lord Jesus Christ can put things above the heart. The doctrine and teaching that have put passed down get into are mind's and not even the spirit of God can break some bondages. Just look at the web site. So much head knowledge. BUT GOD SPEAKS IN THE HEART!
"BLESSED BE THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, WHO HATH BLESSED US WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSING IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST: ACCORDING AS HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE: HAVING BEEN PREDESTINATED US UNTO THE ADOPTION OF CHILDERN BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL."
I for one brother and sister could care less about human will of any kind. What has it grain me in my life? RIGHT OR WRONG? To some a little thing is the end of the world! And to others it means nothing. Adam put us where we were, and Christ took us out of it. I was set free from bondage why go back into it? Is not the love chap. the nature of God? Read it and show me where it say's to stand up for free choice. I see only the LOVE of God given freely to us in our interman before the foundation of the world. We are not becoming perfect we are perfect. Made that way by Him! I died on the cross with Him gladly. I hope this make sense?

 

[PatrickM]

Well, all this begs the question, how, not why, but how do Christians sin? If no free-will, we Christians are controlled by God. Does He make us sin?