Free Will

[enoch son]

You are born into it because of Adam. But the question is when were we set free? That a good question. I think we are trapped till the body goes. But does God see the sin be for we are born agian? How big is God. This can be a new can of worms!

 

[PatrickM]

You are born into it because of Adam. But the question is when were we set free? That a good question. I think we are trapped till the body goes. But does God see the sin be for we are born agian? How big is God. This can be a new can of worms!

You didn't answer the question. Once I'm a Christian, the sin of Adam no longer holds power over me according to the Scriptures, Rom 7.

So, as a Christian, how do you explain that we, as Christians, still sin?

 

[LynneClomina]

If what we are saying is of God, why would God "make" us say things contrary to His will?

no, he is not the source of evil, our sin is, our flesh nature.... yet, He has control over even that.

John Calvin said, "Man falls as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault".

God being in control over every detail does not make him the author of sin, not at all. sin always comes from our flesh and the enemy. but he controls and directs it, works it.... he works all things according to the purpose of His will.....

i believe in the total sovereignty of God, and i do not feel like a puppet on a string at all.... i know i am unable to do any good "of myself", and that all good COMES from God, and that the sinful things that are so easy to fall into COME from my flesh... but God ordains and directs all of it according to His will, and His plans for me are to prosper me and not to harm me.... will hard things come into my life? yes, but they are for my ultimate good, and in my true being, my inner man, i will not be harmed.... surgery cuts into your skin, leaves scars, but ultimately, you are better off (if it is a success - but the Great Physician never fails)...

actually, knowing he is in control of every aspect of my life gives me great comfort.... freedom, less fear, etc. i know that even if i sin, God has a plan in that to grow me, or even someone else - that doesnt mean it was ok to sin, it was not. But in the big picture it is one more stroke of paint on God's canvas.

 

[PatrickM]

In the context of free-will, I do not question the "why" of sin. I agree with you on the fact all good things come from God. This is not the question.

The question is the "how" of sin in the context of free will. If I do not have free will, as a Christian, "how" do I sin? Is it not my choice to be disobedient, to act on my flesh, which is the source of sin?

If I do not have this choice, the only other option available is God "makes" me act on my flesh, to sin.

 

[flyfishing]

Proverbs 16-4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil". NO FREE WILL. Adam had it and Last it. It is now a crused thing. Adam die all die. Jesus give it up freely and saved all. They will bow before Him because of LOVE.

No the unsaved who bow before the LORD on their way to hell will not be doing it because of love.

I understand your line of thought but you honestly are confusing yourself. What i mean is that you are right that to grow and progress we do turn over our wills to him and follow him because of love. However those that do not choose to do this does not mean they have no will..

Christ said if any man will follow me.. Let him take up his cross..

Becuase God has given all his creatures a free will does not mean though that at times he does not exercise his soverignity.. Look at hosea where he speaks i will hedge around with thorns and wall her in.. He uses circumstances to further his plan but not all choose the way..

Btw all will bow because of his magnifcence. one look and you will know...

For christ to be our all in all is a spiritual quest, we are so dependent on tv for entertaiment for exmple. Let god fullfill your soul and yet we cannot tarry one hour...

 

[enoch son]

Oh but hell is not in the book. There was a trash dump outside Jerusalem by the name of hell is that what you mean FLY? No the question is Pat when was I forgiven of sin by God? I believe it was before the foundation of the world. When did I become aware of it over 30 yrs. ago. See I think the tree of the knowlegde of good and evil was free will or will. Jesus was the tree of life. Adam chose the wrong tree. So the will you hold onto is the very thing that made man fall. We move and dwell in God (Acts 17) So tell me where can we go that is not in His will? We are lower then the angel right now, but when the change happean we will judge angels. And some of us will be teachers of God to other people. Did you every wonder who these people are? Jesus was rich and became poor to become rich agian. He was higher then the angels then lower then the angels then higher agian. This is are state also. I'm for taken in all of the knowledge of God as I can right now. I have to think outside the box of man. "His way are not our ways". As for John Calvin. He knew alot, but failed to love a lot. He put to many people in damnation because they were not with him. Alot of good docrtine but miss life. But to be fair, the other side was just as bad. They were all men of God but not men of the fullness of God. That my friends is are destiny, WE ARE TO BECOME THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BEFORE HIS RETURN. AND THAT FULLNESS IS THE CHRIST IN US. IT DID NOT HAPPEAN IN OUR FATHER TIME. WE MUST LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES. WE MUST MOVE IN THE FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT WITH THE FULLNESS OF LOVE.

 

[flyfishing]

Oh but hell is not in the book. There was a trash dump outside Jerusalem by the name of hell is that what you mean FLY? No the question is Pat when was I forgiven of sin by God? I believe it was before the foundation of the world. When did I become aware of it over 30 yrs. ago. See I think the tree of the knowlegde of good and evil was free will or will. Jesus was the tree of life. Adam chose the wrong tree. So the will you hold onto is the very thing that made man fall. We move and dwell in God (Acts 17) So tell me where can we go that is not in His will? We are lower then the angel right now, but when the change happean we will judge angels. And some of us will be teachers of God to other people. Did you every wonder who these people are? Jesus was rich and became poor to become rich agian. He was higher then the angels then lower then the angels then higher agian. This is are state also. I'm for taken in all of the knowledge of God as I can right now. I have to think outside the box of man. "His way are not our ways". As for John Calvin. He knew alot, but failed to love a lot. He put to many people in damnation because they were not with him. Alot of good docrtine but miss life. But to be fair, the other side was just as bad. They were all men of God but not men of the fullness of God. That my friends is are destiny, WE ARE TO BECOME THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BEFORE HIS RETURN. AND THAT FULLNESS IS THE CHRIST IN US. IT DID NOT HAPPEAN IN OUR FATHER TIME. WE MUST LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES. WE MUST MOVE IN THE FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT WITH THE FULLNESS OF LOVE.

Hell not in the bible?? Satans biggest lie... I hope this was faceitously written because gehenna is hell or hades, a burning pit is a burning pit whether greek, jewish, or english..

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

If we have free will then please explian the following vers.
1. Eph. 4-6 "one God and Father of ALL who is OVER ALL and through ALL and IN ALL."
2. 1 Cor. 15-28 " And when all things are subject to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL".
3. Phll. 2-10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,"
4. Rom. 14-11 "for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
I do not see free will here?

Proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

2 chronicles 18:18-34 ........very interesting read

colossians 1:16 for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether .........

colossians 1:17 and He is before all things and by Him all things consist

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

You didn't answer the question. Once I'm a Christian, the sin of Adam no longer holds power over me according to the Scriptures, Rom 7.

So, as a Christian, how do you explain that we, as Christians, still sin?

its called free will and since man heart is continuelly evil Gen 6:5 and are imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ...

Yet the Father calls us son in Galations 4:6-7 what does this mean...

Well since are Father wants us to mature he allows us to grow by tempations so that we can grow to maturity James 1:2

why do we sin??? that is easy when one breaks down the make up of man there is body soul and spirit 1thes 5:23
but God is Spirit John 4:24

So when we are renewed only are spirit is saved right now the body and soul are renewed at the rapture....Gal 5:17-22, 2 peter 2:14, 1peter 2:11, hebrews 6:19..ect

so if we are being spiritual we cannot sin unless we decide to go carnal

 

[LynneClomina]

i think the reason humans have such difficulty accepting what the bible teaches about God's sovereignty is pride....we simply do not want to give credit to any body else for the good things we do... or the bad. we like to think we have free will and are autonomous beings when in reality we are not.

....if any man will follow Me?.... if i cut down a tree, it WILL fall, of no choice of its own. it would be simply foolish of the tree to "think" that it did it by its own "choice".... to say that "will" in that and other verses means we have a FREEDOM OF ABILITY TO CHOOSE THAT WHICH IS RIGHT, is denying what the scriptures says about the unredeemed being slaves to sin and satan, and other verses.

again, God being in total control of us even when we sin does NOT make Him the author of sin, any more than an artist makes his own paint.... and yet the artist is in full control of what he paints.... adam "created" sin in the garden of eden, and God made all that is good.... and with these two paints he creates the world we live in, our lives, and all that goes on...

 

[enoch son]

Lynne; I have enjoy your posts every much in this thread. Fly; as for hell agian. Do you not know you where a worm at one time? Eph. 4-23 the word renewed in this vers. means to change from a worm to a butterfly. There a big word for it I can't spell it and I'm not going to look it up. Is our God a comsuming firier. Then why didn't the bush burn up? Hell is a very interesting topic.It is not what you have been told. B. in Christ welcome. I think what Pat and I can't get across to one other is the fact that my old self is dead, it has passed away. The chruch has told us to take it out and look at it all the time like it some kind of play thing. If God want's it dead and put in the ground that's good enough for me. I believe the word states not looking behind but ahead for the high calling does it not. Why would I want to talk about sin? My sin is as far away from the east is to the west. It has no power over me. I'm been made free from sin and death. Why would a freed man want to go back to jail? I serve at God good pleasure.

 

[flyfishing]

Lynne; I have enjoy your posts every much in this thread. Fly; as for hell agian. Do you not know you where a worm at one time? Eph. 4-23 the word renewed in this vers. means to change from a worm to a butterfly. There a big word for it I can't spell it and I'm not going to look it up. Is our God a comsuming firier. Then why didn't the bush burn up? Hell is a very interesting topic.It is not what you have been told. B. in Christ welcome. I think what Pat and I can't get across to one other is the fact that my old self is dead, it has passed away. The chruch has told us to take it out and look at it all the time like it some kind of play thing. If God want's it dead and put in the ground that's good enough for me. I believe the word states not looking behind but ahead for the high calling does it not. Why would I want to talk about sin? My sin is as far away from the east is to the west. It has no power over me. I'm been made free from sin and death. Why would a freed man want to go back to jail? I serve at God good pleasure.

YOU have to be more clear about your statements if you wish a discussion with me regarding doctrines. I not only know the big words and how to spell them, i use scripture.. Just because the greek word used in ephesians 4:23 metomorphize is used in that illustration does not mean i was a worm... I would urge you brother to be very careful of the warning in rev of taking away from or adding to GOds words.

 

[enoch son]

Then point was that at one time we where all worms till the spirit of God got us. And turn us around. I did not mean to upset you. But the worm dies not in hell so what happean to it? Does the bad get burn out? Does it change into the butterfly? And oh- by the why great to have you here. Looking forward to talking with you. Your's in Christ ken

 

[flyfishing]

Then point was that at one time we where all worms till the spirit of God got us. And turn us around. I did not mean to upset you. But the worm dies not in hell so what happean to it? Does the bad get burn out? Does it change into the butterfly? And oh- by the why great to have you here. Looking forward to talking with you. Your's in Christ ken

You did not upset me ken but i do want to be accurate in my statements as you should strive to be in yours. I have a passion for truth. Part of my calling as a watchman,pastor.. I like the watchman calling, the pastor one i struggle with at times. It is hard to love someone who is doing carnal things to your wife and sister in law for example but by the grace of Christ my LORd i can do all things..

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Lynne; I have enjoy your posts every much in this thread. Fly; as for hell agian. Do you not know you where a worm at one time? Eph. 4-23 the word renewed in this vers. means to change from a worm to a butterfly. There a big word for it I can't spell it and I'm not going to look it up. Is our God a comsuming firier. Then why didn't the bush burn up? Hell is a very interesting topic.It is not what you have been told. B. in Christ welcome. I think what Pat and I can't get across to one other is the fact that my old self is dead, it has passed away. The chruch has told us to take it out and look at it all the time like it some kind of play thing. If God want's it dead and put in the ground that's good enough for me. I believe the word states not looking behind but ahead for the high calling does it not. Why would I want to talk about sin? My sin is as far away from the east is to the west. It has no power over me. I'm been made free from sin and death. Why would a freed man want to go back to jail? I serve at God good pleasure.

Why .... 2 cor 2:11 for we are not ignorant of his devices

DO YOU KNOW WHO YOUR ENIEMIES ARE? AND THERE METHODS?

world 1 john 2:15
satan 2 cor 11:14-15
flesh romans 6:11-13

look at...

romans 6:11 like wise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto the sin[OSN] but alive unto God in jesus Christ our Lord.

are you dead? spiritually, soulishly, fleshly?

In john 4:24 God is spirit!
yet in Romans 6:12 it talks about the first lust:.... sin in your body

This is a mental war 2 cor 10:4-5, eph 4:23 not carnal

when we are weak we lose the battle for that moment but God has won the war already at the cross

1 john 1:8-10 god is good

 

[PatrickM]

I think what Pat and I can't get across to one other is the fact that my old self is dead, it has passed away.

The "power" of sin is dead, but sin is still very real in our lives. To pretend it no longer exists is to ignore what God says in 1John1:8, "If we (Christians) say we have no sin, we deceive oursleves, and the truth is not in us." Yes, we have been set free from the power of sin, but until God creates a new heaven and earth, there is sin still in the world, and it *can* affect us as Christians.

The chruch has told us to take it out and look at it all the time like it some kind of play thing.

I don't know about your church, but mine certainly doesn't.

If God want's it dead and put in the ground that's good enough for me.

Unfortunately, sin is not "gone", nevertheless, we have been set free from it's grasp. But it must still be in existence, else why Rom 6:12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your moral bodies, to make you obey their passions." Why the admonision unless it is still *possible* for it to happen?

Why would I want to talk about sin? My sin is as far away from the east is to the west. It has no power over me. I'm been made free from sin and death. Why would a freed man want to go back to jail? I serve at God good pleasure.

I only talk about it in the context of the original post here which is free will. We must still have the *ability* to chose, or else how do explain the *fact* that Christians still sin?

And as for the earlier "painter" illustration, yes, the painter is responsible for everything put on the canvas (sp?). The paint does not simply jump onto the painting does it?

To answer it meself, it is *us* who are responsible for sin, even as Christians. God is not the author, nor the "attributor", if you will, of sin. We must not blame Him for our shortcomings! Yes, enoch son, all my *past sin* is nailed to the cross, as well as my present and future sins, but I must take responsibility for my own actions when they are in disobedience to God.

 

[flyfishing]

The "power" of sin is dead, but sin is still very real in our lives. To pretend it no longer exists is to ignore what God says in 1John1:8, "If we (Christians) say we have no sin, we deceive oursleves, and the truth is not in us." Yes, we have been set free from the power of sin, but until God creates a new heaven and earth, there is sin still in the world, and it *can* affect us as Christians.


I don't know about your church, but mine certainly doesn't.


Unfortunately, sin is not "gone", nevertheless, we have been set free from it's grasp. But it must still be in existence, else why Rom 6:12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your moral bodies, to make you obey their passions." Why the admonision unless it is still *possible* for it to happen?

I only talk about it in the context of the original post here which is free will. We must still have the *ability* to chose, or else how do explain the *fact* that Christians still sin?

And as for the earlier "painter" illustration, yes, the painter is responsible for everything put on the canvas (sp?). The paint does not simply jump onto the painting does it?

To answer it meself, it is *us* who are responsible for sin, even as Christians. God is not the author, nor the "attributor", if you will, of sin. We must not blame Him for our shortcomings! Yes, enoch son, all my *past sin* is nailed to the cross, as well as my present and future sins, but I must take responsibility for my own actions when they are in disobedience to God.

Very good writing...

 

[enoch son]

Colossians 3 - 1-17 Why are you in control? My body is dead. The word say's so. If you what to kept on looking at it be my guest. But I'm going to believe what God said it is dead! The victory was won. It hung on a cross with Christ. " Whom the Son set free is free indeed".

 

[flyfishing]

Colossians 3 - 1-17 Why are you in control? My body is dead. The word say's so. If you what to kept on looking at it be my guest. But I'm going to believe what God said it is dead! The victory was won. It hung on a cross with Christ. " Whom the Son set free is free indeed".

Lets look at coloosians 3 then. it says if you be risen with christ set your affections on things above ,,Hmm that there is an act of the "free will""

Btw in regards to the other thread and respects to the moderators wishes i did not respond to your last post. But if you quote a scripture you should use it in its proper context. yelling in psalms means rejoicing out loud sometimes very loud. It does not mean yelling at GOD or trying to preach to him...

 

[enoch son]

Vers. 3 "FOR YOU HAVE DIED AND YOUR LIFE IS HIDDEN WITH CHRIST IN GOD". A dead thing is a dead thing and has no free will it is just dead. I will live without out it. For I have been HIDDEN by Christ in God before time begain. Your doctrine is mot, God is bigger. I will fellowship with my Lord anyway He leads me, thank you very much. For He is the author and perfecter of my faith. Not man but what he thinks he reads or doesn't read in the book. And oh-by the way Abel blood yelled from the ground!