Free Will vs Election

[jimmyjimmy]

For that matter, where in any Reformed theological literature can one find such doctrine?

I wanted to go back to Calvin, just in case there is some nut out there who claims to be a Calvinist yet holds such a view.

It's the typical straw man, yet again. I'm going tired of it, especially when posters are not polite, and don't even attempt to understand the Calvinist position.

Also, even after being corrected, many repeat the same straw man arguments repeatedly. That's when it's time to bow, because no reasonable conversation can take place at that point.

 

[TheSeabass]

Something obvious does not need to be proven. You are attempting to argue for your conclusion by asking questions and making assertions that assume your conclusion. This is, by definition, circular reasoning.

You are just asserting/assuming your claims as proof without giving actual proof?

Scripture? That seems like an evasion to me.

Are you suggesting fleshly Israel could be saved while living in rebellion and disobedience to God's laws and ordinances?

Romans 9-11 God cast them off because of their disobedience

In order to believe something do you need an explicit and positive assertion stated in Scripture somewhere? That is not good Bible reading, friend. Where is your Scripture that says the Apostle Paul was not Satan incarnate? There is no Scripture saying he wasn't, therefore, by your logic, I am justified to believe it.

Yes, I need scripture for proof and not what somebody happens to say. God's word is not found outside of scripture just man's uninspired contradictions. Speaking of man made contradictions, how can all these 1000's of religious groups all contradict each other over God's word, God's counsel, Christ's doctrine when they are not contradictory?

Are you wanting me to tangle myself up in all these man made contradictions?

Besides, you are again arguing in circles. All of your questions have presumed the things for which you are trying to argue. This is circular reasoning, and is therefore fallacious.



I agree; Reformed theology doesn't teach this either, despite your repeated and unsubstantiated claims to the contrary. When are you going to actually deal with what Reformed theology actually teaches?



Didn't you just complain about straw men?

Does not Reformed theology teach that before the world began God pre-selected certain individuals to be saved leaving the rest to be lost?

If so, then what basis was used or was it purely arbitrary choosing on God's part?
Did any of these pre-selected individuals before the world was created meet any conditions such as having faith?

I

 

[Thursday]

matt slick's latest debate, worth the watch if you have time. (running time 3 hours)
Street and Open Air Preachers of America

A man reaps what he sows, not what God sows.

If we reaped what God sows then all men would be saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

You've evaded the question I posed from the text.

Calvinism does not claim the gospel is forced on anyone against his will. Where in Calvin's writings have you found such a thing?

You posted "Do you know how they fished? It was with nets. They didn't try to persuade the fish into the boat. They dragged the fish into the boat."

Isn't 'dragged the fish into the boat " forcing? Sure it is.

So were you not implying men are forced, not persuaded, but dragged into the gospel?

 

[TheSeabass]

Some posts in this thread puzzle me. Is it possible that not all Bibles contain Ephesians 1?

What is not in Eph 1 is Calvinistic type of predestination.

 

[TaylorSexton]

You are just asserting/assuming your claims as proof without giving actual proof?

The proof is in the numerous posts in which you arguing your conclusions by asserting them. It is here for all to see, including you.

Are you suggesting fleshly Israel could be saved while living in rebellion and disobedience to God's laws and ordinances?

Romans 9-11 God cast them off because of their disobedience

Nobody was ever saved through "fleshly Israel." Only true Jews are saved (Rom. 2).

Are you wanting me to tangle myself up in all these man made contradictions?

No, I want you to read the Bible aright.

Does not Reformed theology teach that before the world began God pre-selected certain individuals to be saved leaving the rest to be lost?

Of course, because that is what Scripture teaches.

If so, then what basis was used or was it purely arbitrary choosing on God's part?

Because God's pleasure is not arbitrary. TO say such would be blasphemy. Whatever God does, his will is good enough for me. It is sad if that is not the case for you.

Did any of these pre-selected individuals before the world was created meet any conditions such as having faith?

No, because salvation is by grace alone. Do you believe, contrary to Paul, that we are saved by our own doing and works? I hope not.

A man reaps what he sows, not what God sows.

Good, so you believe in salvation by works. At least proclaim it plainly.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm home early from work with my honey-do list all complete, so I'll also give an answer to these questions.

Does not Reformed theology teach that before the world began God pre-selected certain individuals to be saved leaving the rest to be lost?

Yes. Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:15

If so, then what basis was used or was it purely arbitrary choosing on God's part?

The answer is, "His good pleasure". Ephesians 1:5 and 1:9

Did any of these pre-selected individuals before the world was created meet any conditions such as having faith?

No. They did not have faith until the point in time in which God grated them, the elect, faith. Romans 9:11. "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls"

 

[Thursday]

Good, so you believe in salvation by works. At least proclaim it plainly.

Salvation by grace through faith and works. That's what Christians have always taught and that's what the bible teaches. Only a few modern sects teach salvation by faith alone.

I proclaim the word of God:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Only a few modern sects teach salvation by faith alone.

Only all of Protestantism...and the early Church...and the Apostles...and Christ...and all of Scripture...

Salvation by grace through faith and works.

I find that nowhere in Scripture. I see that salvation is by grace alone, through faith, which produces works (Eph. 2).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You posted "Do you know how they fished? It was with nets. They didn't try to persuade the fish into the boat. They dragged the fish into the boat."

Isn't 'dragged the fish into the boat " forcing? Sure it is.

So were you not implying men are forced, not persuaded, but dragged into the gospel?

Dragged by God is not a "forced Gospel".

You are missing the MEANS in which God uses to bring salvation to His elect. The means are laid out the texts of scripture, if you simple read it. God gives new birth by the Word, through the Holy Spirit.

Once a man is "born again" he then has a new will, one which runs toward God rather than flees from Him.

Being born again, is being given eyes to see what is already there. The unregenerate man is blind. The Christian is given sight, and with that sight CHOOSES Christ.

 

[Thursday]

Only all of Protestantism...and the early Church...and the Apostles...and Christ...and all of Scripture...



I find that nowhere in Scripture. I see that salvation is by grace alone, through faith, which produces works (Eph. 2).

You see through modern protestant eyes. That is not what Christians believed for over one thousand years, and many protestants today don't even believe that.

The difference between the sheep and the goats in Matt 25 is their actions, not their beliefs.

Both sheep and goats call Jesus "Lord".

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[TheSeabass]

The proof is in the numerous posts in which you arguing your conclusions by asserting them. It is here for all to see, including you.

Nobody was ever saved through "fleshly Israel." Only true Jews are saved (Rom. 2).[/quote]

David was of fleshly Israel and he is not saved?

No, I want you to read the Bible aright.



Of course, because that is what Scripture teaches.



Because God's pleasure is not arbitrary. TO say such would be blasphemy. Whatever God does, his will is good enough for me. It is sad if that is not the case for you.



No, because salvation is by grace alone. Do you believe, contrary to Paul, that we are saved by our own doing and works? I hope not.



Good, so you believe in salvation by works. At least proclaim it plainly.

1) What verse say salvation is by grace alone WITHOUT YOU ADDING OR ASSUMING the word 'alone' into it?

2) I never anywhere said we are saved by OUR OWN works, so that is another straw man. What I have said man is saved by doing GOD's works that God has given man to so as believe repent confess and be baptized.

Romans 10:3

See how the Jews were lost going about doing their OWN righteousness and failed to be saved by SUBMITTING/obeying GOD'S righteousness?

There are two works in Romans 10:3 with one work that will not save in one doing his OWN righteous works and another work that does save in submitting to God's righteousness.

 

[TheSeabass]

Dragged by God is not a "forced Gospel".

You are missing the MEANS in which God uses to bring salvation to His elect. The means are laid out the texts of scripture, if you simple read it. God gives new birth by the Word, through the Holy Spirit.

Once a man is "born again" he then has a new will, one which runs toward God rather than flees from Him.

Being born again, is being given eyes to see what is already there. The unregenerate man is blind. The Christian is given sight, and with that sight CHOOSES Christ.

1) Dragging is forcing.

2) you assume one is elect but not saved

3) being born again is when one receives/obeys the gospel by choosing to submit to water baptism. Water baptism is the means as to how one becomes of the elect/group Christian/saved.

I earlier posted two verses, 1 Thess 1:4 and 2 Peter 1:10 and showed how man's volition and the gospel are involved in being elect.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

1) Dragging is forcing.

2) you assume one is elect but not saved

3) being born again is when one receives/obeys the gospel by choosing to submit to water baptism. Water baptism is the means as to how one becomes of the elect/group Christian/saved.

Would you think a firman is forcing you to be saved if he pulled your unconscious body from a burning building?

I assume Gods word is truth. Ephesians 1, yet again. First comes election (prior to birth), then salvation.

The very word election make no sense the way you use it. If man is the ultimate determiner of this, then he is not elected by God.

 

[TaylorSexton]

The difference between the sheep and the goats in Matt 25 is their actions, not their beliefs.

And where else do actions stem than from beliefs? What person would take medicine (an action) unless he or she first believed it would benefit them (or at least not harm them). It is illogical and absolutely contrary to experience to assert that actions are separated from or logically antecedent to beliefs. That is the argument of James 2:14 ff., for example.

David was of fleshly Israel and he is not saved?

You are simply not reading what I am saying. You are constantly flip-flopping what you are referencing when you speak certain words or phrases, and, frankly, it is making intelligible conversation with you well nigh impossible.

What verse say salvation is by grace alone WITHOUT YOU ADDING OR ASSUMING the word 'alone' into it?

"By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing" (Eph. 2:8).

2) I never anywhere said we are saved by OUR OWN works, so that is another straw man.

Again you misuse the straw man accusation. I never said you said that. I asked if you believed it—a question which you misread and, consequently, did not answer.

 

[DeaconDean]

The bible DOES teach predestination, just NOT Calvinistic predestination for it puts culpability upon God.

1) God predestined a group (Christian) to be saved and it is man's responsibility to be in that group. If man is not in that group it is his own failure not God's.

2) Under Calvinistic predestination God forces salvation condemnation upon the individual making God 100% culpable for the lost.

There is a nite and day difference between above two.

I would like for to quote the scripture where it says that God predetinates "Christians" to be saved and then it is their "responsibility" to be in that group.

Secondly, I want to read Romans 8:29 and tell me what it says.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

There is no such thing as unlimited free will

 

[jimmyjimmy]

There is no such thing as unlimited free will

Yes. "Libertarian free will" only exists in people imaginations.

We do what we most desire to do, 100% of the time, and sinners choose sin 100% of the time.

 

[Thursday]

And where else do actions stem than from beliefs? What person would take medicine (an action) unless he or she first believed it would benefit them (or at least not harm them). It is illogical and absolutely contrary to experience to assert that actions are separated from or logically antecedent to beliefs. That is the argument of James 2:14 ff., for example.

You are proving my point. We are saved by grace through faith and works.

 

[TaylorSexton]

You are proving my point. We are saved by grace through faith and works.

Then you simply didn't read my post, because I directly opposed what you are arguing.