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Free Will vs Election

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TaylorSexton

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Yet the bible does not teach election apart from the bible or man's volition.

I just read this yesterday from John Calvin:

“Who is such a fool as to assert that God moves man just as we throw a stone? And nothing like this follows from our teaching.”[1]

So, in all seriousness, the onus is yours to provide citations (not "I've heard" or "I've read on this forum"; actual citations) from reputable Reformed literature (not this forum) which claims that man's volition is completely inactive in salvation. Again, part of the problem is that you confuse (it seems deliberate, for you know that the issue affects your assertion directly) election and salvation, saying that they are the same thing, that nothing separates them, soteriologically speaking. Of course, we all realize that no such teaching is found in the pages of Scripture nor in any pages of competent theological writings—Reformed, Arminian, or otherwise.

[1] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, ed. John T. McNeill, trans. Ford Lewis Battles, Library of Christian Classics (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 1960), 1:334.
 
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AMR

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Yet the bible does not teach election apart from the bible or man's volition.


Much confusion by the anti-Calvinist arises on the matter of election. Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" (the anti-Calvinist's erroneous understanding) and "election is unto salvation" (the Reformed and Calvinist proper understanding).

The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

What God does for us:

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65);
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10);
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48);
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29);
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4);
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thes. 2:13-14);
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29);
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26);
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9);
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3);
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30);
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5);
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11); and
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

The regenerative act of God via the power of the Holy Spirit (Eze. 36:26) restores that which was lost in the sin of Adam. This is a wholly monergistic action for the un-regenerated man possesses no moral ability to choose wisely (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

Once regenerated (Eze. 36:26), the person then possesses the moral ability to believe and will not not want to believe. This is synergism, the man's free will act, where free will here defined as choosing according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses. The regenerated man will genuinely want to believe. He will do so. God is not doing the believing for the regenerated man, but God will certainly be acting, according to His ordained free, necessary, or contingent means, to ensure that the believing man will persevere in his belief.
 
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DeaconDean

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Much confusion by the anti-Calvinist arises on the matter of election. Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" (the anti-Calvinist's erroneous understanding) and "election is unto salvation" (the Reformed and Calvinist proper understanding).

The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

What God does for us:

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65);
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10);
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48);
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29);
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4);
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thes. 2:13-14);
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29);
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26);
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9);
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3);
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30);
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5);
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11); and
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

The regenerative act of God via the power of the Holy Spirit (Eze. 36:26) restores that which was lost in the sin of Adam. This is a wholly monergistic action for the un-regenerated man possesses no moral ability to choose wisely (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

Once regenerated (Eze. 36:26), the person then possesses the moral ability to believe and will not not want to believe. This is synergism, the man's free will act, where free will here defined as choosing according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses. The regenerated man will genuinely want to believe. He will do so. God is not doing the believing for the regenerated man, but God will certainly be acting, according to His ordained free, necessary, or contingent means, to ensure that the believing man will persevere in his belief.

Finally, somebody besides myself who has a proper understanding of predestination.

Thank you sir.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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jten

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This is where your confusion lies. Until you understand this crucial soteriological distinction, this conversation is useless. It simply will not matter how often and deeply we try to explain it; it will not matter if you refuse to seek understanding.



You have not demonstrated from the bible that there is a difference.
Show an example from the NT of one that was saved but not elect or elect but not saved.
 
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jten

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I just read this yesterday from John Calvin:

“Who is such a fool as to assert that God moves man just as we throw a stone? And nothing like this follows from our teaching.”[1]

So, in all seriousness, the onus is yours to provide citations (not "I've heard" or "I've read on this forum"; actual citations) from reputable Reformed literature (not this forum) which claims that man's volition is completely inactive in salvation. Again, part of the problem is that you confuse (it seems deliberate, for you know that the issue affects your assertion directly) election and salvation, saying that they are the same thing, that nothing separates them, soteriologically speaking. Of course, we all realize that no such teaching is found in the pages of Scripture nor in any pages of competent theological writings—Reformed, Arminian, or otherwise.

[1] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, ed. John T. McNeill, trans. Ford Lewis Battles, Library of Christian Classics (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 1960), 1:334.

The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God's word. It focuses on God's sovereignty - stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace, predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual to where he is then able to and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation. -- Matt Slick

There is no free will choice in Calvinistic predestination. If God predestined some to be saved and the rest to be lost, man has no free will choice in his eternal destination but can only do what was forced upon him. This issue came up o the CARM forum where they try and say God predetermined before the world began that "Joe" would be saved. So the Calvinists on CARM try to say that Joe can choose what God has already chosen for him. This of course is not free will choice for Joe.
 
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jten

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Much confusion by the anti-Calvinist arises on the matter of election. Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" (the anti-Calvinist's erroneous understanding) and "election is unto salvation" (the Reformed and Calvinist proper understanding).

The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

What God does for us:

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65);
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10);
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48);
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29);
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4);
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thes. 2:13-14);
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29);
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26);
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9);
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3);
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30);
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5);
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11); and
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

The regenerative act of God via the power of the Holy Spirit (Eze. 36:26) restores that which was lost in the sin of Adam. This is a wholly monergistic action for the un-regenerated man possesses no moral ability to choose wisely (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

Once regenerated (Eze. 36:26), the person then possesses the moral ability to believe and will not not want to believe. This is synergism, the man's free will act, where free will here defined as choosing according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses. The regenerated man will genuinely want to believe. He will do so. God is not doing the believing for the regenerated man, but God will certainly be acting, according to His ordained free, necessary, or contingent means, to ensure that the believing man will persevere in his belief.

You post "Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. "

Yet nowhere do I find in Christ's NT such a thing as an unjustified elect person.

The elect is the group called Christian and it is biblically impossible to be of this elect group while remaining unjustified.

Again no such thing as a unjustified Christian.
No such thing as being elect but not a Christian or a Christian but not elect.


Monergism does nothing but put fault and blame upon God for the lost when God has no such fault and blame. IF one is lost it is due to his own fault and failures and not God's for failing to choose him, failing to regenerate, failing him give him faith etc. The one talent man buried his one talent of his own free will choosing yet tried to blame God for his actions saying God was a "hard man" and was cast into outer darkness. Calvinism takes sides with this one talent man against God for if Calvinism is correct then God did force him to bury his one talent. Blaming God for things He did not cause gets one cast into outer darkness.

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65); Draws by His word when people are taught, hear and learn. Nothing apart from God's word or man's volition or supernatural in God's drawing.

- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10); by His word. Those that obey and follow God's word, then that word cleans man John 15:3. Again, nothing supernatural apart from God's word and man's volition.

- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); The context shows the Gentiles determined themselves to hear GOd's word (v42) and believe while the Jews determined for themselves to put God's word away from themselves, v46. Men were "persuaded" to continue in the grace of God v43. Persuasion and Calvinistic determination do not mix. Salvation is for the ends of the earth (v47) not limited to a few. No Calvinism in the context.


- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29); the context shows belief is a work given to man to do.
The people asked Jesus what WE DO that WE WORK the works of God. Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.

- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4); God chose a group called Christian to be saved yet God never determines what individuals will or will not be in that group, that is left up to man. The context here shows God foreknew that prechosen GROUP would have the traits of being "in Him" "holy and without blame" and called "sons" Eph 1:4,5. There no such individual found in the NT that Unconditionally possessed any of these traits apart from the GROUP. Again God pre-etermined the GROUP and NOT the individual therefore if the individual fails to be in the GROUP then that is the individuals fault and blame not God's.

- chooses us for salvation (2 Thes. 2:13-14); refers to the GROUP Christian and they were not UNconditionally chosen...."chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Sanitification of the spirit and belief of the truth is being born again. Hence one is of the chosen when he has CONDITIONALLY been born again, water baptized.

John 3:5-------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
2 Thess 2:13---spirit+++++++++NT belief>>>>>>>>chosen

NT belief includes baptism Acts 2:41,44.


- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29); does not mean one can believe only if God gives him belief. Suh an idea puts culpability and blame upon God for the faithless. Did Jesus blame God for failing to give those disciples in Matthew 8:26 the sufficient faith they lacked? No for faith comes from the heart, therefore their little faith was heir own fault not God's.

-
grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26); God has given man the privilege to repent. Therefore man has the choice to repent and be saved or remain impenitent and be lost.

- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9); those that obey the call will be saved.

- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3); God gave man the free will choice to man be born again or not. TaylorSexton is arguing man has free will in Calvinism. No free will choice will found in "causing".

- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30); God predestined a GROUP. No individual was ever unconditionally predestined.

- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5); this refers to the GOUP CHristian not to any individual apart from the group.

- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11); and
-
makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

It is God's will that men can be born again but it is the choice of man to be born again or not...." as many as received him" The new birth does not come about due to physical birth, descendants or the will of man but from God's will. Certainly does not mean one can be born again only if God chooses him to be born again. If one could be born again only if God chooses him to be born again, then Christ unfairly unjustly condemned Nicodemus for something totally out of Nicodemus' control.


Again, TaylorSexton argues there is free will choice in Calvinism but there is none in "causing".
 
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jten

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Finally, somebody besides myself who has a proper understanding of predestination.

Thank you sir.

God Bless

Till all are one.
He talked about CALVINISTIC predestination where fault blame and failure fall upon God, not biblical predestination where God predestinated a GROUP not unconditionally predestined individuals where fault, blame and failure is upon the individual for his own choices. He consistently used the word "cause" where God causes this or that. There is no free will choice in what is caused/forced upon man.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God's word. It focuses on God's sovereignty - stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace, predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual to where he is then able to and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation. -- Matt Slick

There is no free will choice in Calvinistic predestination. If God predestined some to be saved and the rest to be lost, man has no free will choice in his eternal destination but can only do what was forced upon him. This issue came up o the CARM forum where they try and say God predetermined before the world began that "Joe" would be saved. So the Calvinists on CARM try to say that Joe can choose what God has already chosen for him. This of course is not free will choice for Joe.

Did not Christ say, "I will make you fisher of men"?
 
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hedrick

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Again, TaylorSexton argues there is free will choice in Calvinism but there is none in "causing".
There are differing definitions of "free will." It is clear that in Calvinism the will is involved. Those who are elect are regenerated so that they can respond to Christ. Augustine considered that a freeing of the will, because before regeneration we can choose nothing but sin, where after regeneration we are able to respond to God. However what Arminians mean by free will is the ability to choose whether or not to respond to God's call. Traditional Calvinism denies that.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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God chose me and I don't know why.
Nothing good that I did -- that's for sure.
Makes me all the more grateful.
Knowing that I had nothing to do with it.
It was a gift from the Holy Spirit -- repentance.
M-Bob
 
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jten

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There are differing definitions of "free will." It is clear that in Calvinism the will is involved. Those who are elect are regenerated so that they can respond to Christ. Augustine considered that a freeing of the will, because before regeneration we can choose nothing but sin, where after regeneration we are able to respond to God. However what Arminians mean by free will is the ability to choose whether or not to respond to God's call. Traditional Calvinism denies that.

Free will as seen in the bible is the ability to choose from at least 2 or more options. Joshua 24:15 gave the people two options (choose God or gods) to choose from nothing forced/caused upon them. No one thing forced upon them.

No free will, no option of choices in what God "causes" under Calvinistic theology.

Augustine was wrong, Genesis 4:7.

If before the world began God predestined/causes/forces you to be saved, then what choice do you have in your eternal salvation? None. If God did not pre-choose you then what choice do you have in your eternal destruction? None.
 
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jten

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There are differing definitions of "free will." It is clear that in Calvinism the will is involved. Those who are elect are regenerated so that they can respond to Christ. Augustine considered that a freeing of the will, because before regeneration we can choose nothing but sin, where after regeneration we are able to respond to God. However what Arminians mean by free will is the ability to choose whether or not to respond to God's call. Traditional Calvinism denies that.

Free will as seen in the bible is the ability to choose from at least 2 or more options. Joshua 24:15 gave the people two options (choose God or gods) to choose from nothing forced/caused upon them.

No free will, no option of choices in what God "causes" under Calvinistic theology.

Augustine was wrong, Genesis 4:7.

If before the world began God predestined/causes/forces you to be saved, then what choice do you have in your eternal salvation? None. If God did not -you then what choice do you have in your eternal destruction? None.
 
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jten

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God chose me and I don't know why.
Nothing good that I did -- that's for sure.
Makes me all the more grateful.
Knowing that I had nothing to do with it.
It was a gift from the Holy Spirit -- repentance.
M-Bob
The bible does not teach God unconditionally chooses each individual's salvation or condemnation. Such an idea puts fault blame and failure upon God for the faithless/lost.

God did predestine a GROUP called Christian that has the traits of being in Christ, holy and without blame and sons of God. It is up to the individual to choose to be in this group thereby take on these traits. It is the individuals fault failure not being in the pre-chosen group NOT God's.

There is a night and day difference in the above two things where one puts blame failure upon God and the other puts it rightfully upon man.
 
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jten

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God chose me and I don't know why.
Nothing good that I did -- that's for sure.
Makes me all the more grateful.
Knowing that I had nothing to do with it.
It was a gift from the Holy Spirit -- repentance.
M-Bob
The bible does not teach God unconditionally chooses each individual's salvation or condemnation. Such an idea puts fault blame and failure upon God for the faithless/lost.

God did predestine a GROUP called Christian that has the traits of being in Christ, holy and without blame and sons of God. It is up to the individual to choose to be in this group thereby take on these traits. It is the individuals fault failure not being in the pre-chosen group NOT God's.

There is a night and day difference in the above two things where one incorrectly puts blame failure upon God and the other puts it rightfully upon man.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Show an example from the NT of one that was saved but not elect or elect but not saved.

Again, this your challenge is founded upon the presupposition that election and salvation are the same thing. You are reasoning in circles, friend.

The answer to your question is simple. There are many examples of people in Scripture who, at one point in their life, were elect but not save. In fact, this is true for every believer, because election necessarily precedes salvation (again, because they are not the same thing soteriologically; a fiction that you keep asserting as if it is obvious).

As for your request for me to find someone in Scripture who "was saved but not elect," this is were your presupposition becomes clear, because salvation outside of election is impossible. No one can be saved unless they are elect. Now, before you object by saying, "Then election is salvation," realize that just because A necessarily precedes B does not make A and B the same thing. For example, regeneration necessarily precedes glorification, and it is therefore impossible, just like with election and salvation, for me to show you someone who is glorified who is not at the same time regenerate (which is identical to the request you just made). However, that does not lead to the conclusion that regeneration is glorification. If we say otherwise, we are simply being hard-headed, unwilling to bow to the truth. Therefore, just because election necessarily precedes salvation does not give you the foundation to conclude that they are the same thing, which is what your question is presupposing, otherwise you wouldn't have asked it.

The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God's word. It focuses on God's sovereignty - stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace, predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual to where he is then able to and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation. -- Matt Slick

There is no free will choice in Calvinistic predestination. If God predestined some to be saved and the rest to be lost, man has no free will choice in his eternal destination but can only do what was forced upon him. This issue came up o the CARM forum where they try and say God predetermined before the world began that "Joe" would be saved. So the Calvinists on CARM try to say that Joe can choose what God has already chosen for him. This of course is not free will choice for Joe.

Again, until you decide to stop confusing predestination/election with salvation (they are not the same thing, as I demonstrated above), then you will keep raising these irrelevant complaints.

I am beginning to get the feeling that you are here to fight, not to understand. I am not at all saying that you have to or even should agree with Reformed theology, but I am saying that you should at least put forth an effort to understand it. So far you have not.
 
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AMR

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You post "Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. "

Yet nowhere do I find in Christ's NT such a thing as an unjustified elect person.

The elect is the group called Christian and it is biblically impossible to be of this elect group while remaining unjustified.
When you seek to elevate yourself to sit next to God and presume to have his thoughts the above is the result.

What God knows and how He knows it is not identical to what we know. He is the archetype we are the ectype in terms of knowledge. God makes it clear from Scripture that election is unto salvation...at the appointed time and through the appointed means He has ordained. God, being atemporal in His aseity, sees all past, present, and future equally vividly, so your attempt to match your knowledge with God is foolishness and, explicitly, forbidden (Deut. 29:29).

Suppose one grants your confused view. Then unless you are willing to deny God's knowledge of the future, you cannot escape the fact that He knew of your decision to choose wisely before you did so. How God contemplates that knowledge, as in "from God's perspective you have always been saved" illustrates the dilemma you face in these matters when trying to extract yourself from your temporal existence and place yourself in God's eternal existence. You cannot escape the very thing that you are caviling about. Hence the command from Deut. 29:29, to prevent the dissonance that arises when temporal creatures seek to peek behind the curtain.

The fact that God knows the future is the result of the decree of God. For had He not so decreed, there would be no objects of knowledge for God to know. This is what we call the grounding of God's simple knowledge. God knows because He has decreed. But, your view in this discussion illustrates a common error against the proper view that God's foreknowledge is not causative. This will be explained in the Spoiler below.

The ordained decree of God includes the fact that our choice to believe will be our free choice.
The decree of God is His
1. eternal,
2. unchangeable,
3. holy,
4. wise, and
5. sovereign purpose.

The decree of God comprehends at once all things
1. that ever were,
2. are, or
2. will be.

These things are comprehended in their
1. causes,
2. conditions,
3. successions, and
4. relations.

The decree of God also determines the certain future existence of all things.

Man’s thoughts are free thoughts. We are self-determined creatures, moved by our desires, circumstances, upbringing, our natures.

Our inclinations drive what we desire (want). We choose according to our greatest inclinations at the moment we so choose. If we have no inclinations to choose, we deny the very inclinations that led us to not choosing. So even "no choice" is a choice, by these terms.

To be genuinely bereft of inclination is to be wholly arbitrary, truly random, independent of reality, and anything we would "choose" would be of no consequence and meaningless. It would be the mule standing before two buckets, sweet corn and sweet apples, unable to choose, ultimately starving to death in a frozen pose. This is not what Scripture teaches us about man's constitution, which serves but one of two masters (Matthew 6:24).

Naturally, God is the antecedent cause of all things, yet we are the proximate causes of our actions. God is not the author of sin; He does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us by creating fresh evil in us." God's sovereign decree always intersects with the moral agent’s free choices.

The many contents of God’s single eternal purpose are, because we are finite and God is infinite, limited by our faculties to comprehend fully, hence when we speak of the decree of God, we conceive of the decree in partial aspects and/or logical relations, and thusly we, as finite creatures, speak of the decreess of God. So while we may write or speak about the “decrees” of God, we should always remember that there is but one decree. ;)

Also, we should be on the same page with respect to God’s foreknowledge and God’s foreordination.

Foreknowledge is an act of God, infinitely intelligent, knowing from eternity, without change, the certain future existence of all events of every type that ever will come to pass.

Confusion about the foreknowledge of God is seen in what immediately follows:


Necessity of a hypothetical inference...
If God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter cannot refrain from sinning.
(This is Incorrect)

The interpretation above wrongly interprets God's foreknowledge as impinging upon Peter's moral free agency. God's knowledge of the future is not direct cause of the events of the future that God knows. Instead, for the example above, the proper understanding is:

The necessity of the consequent of the hypothetical...
Necessarily, if God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter does not refrain from sinning.
(This is Correct)​

In other words, the actions of moral free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, the actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place.

God's knowledge of our past, present, and future is grounded in His ordination of all that happens. God's ordaining (decreeing), is an act of the will of God, who is infinitely intelligent, foreknowing, benevolent, and righteous. Foreordination is an act of God from eternity determining the certain future existence of all events of every type that will come to pass. Foreknowledge recognizes the certain future existence of events, while foreordination makes them certainly future.

In summary:
1. God's decrees are eternal. Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:4; 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7.

2. They are immutable. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 46:9.

3. They comprehend all events.

(1) The Scriptures assert this of the whole system in general embraced in the divine decrees. Dan. 4:34, 35; Acts 17:26; Eph 1:11.
(2) They affirm the same of fortuitous events. Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:29, 30.
(3) Also of the
free actions of men. Eph. 2:10, 11; Phil. 2:13.
(4) Even the wicked actions of men. Acts 2:23; 4:27, 28; 13:29; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; Rev. 17:17. As to the history of Joseph, compare Gen. 37:28, with Gen. 45:7, 8, and Gen. 50:20. See also Ps. 17:13, 14; Isa. 10:5, 15.

4. The decrees of God are not conditional. Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21; Isa. 14:24, 27; 46:10; Rom. 9:11.

5. They are sovereign. Isa. 40:13, 14; Dan. 4:35; Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:11, 15-18; Eph. 1:5, 11.

6. They include the means. Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2.

7. They determine the free actions of men. Acts 4:27, 28; Eph. 2:10.

8. God himself works in his people that faith and obedience which are called the conditions of salvation. Eph. 2:8; Phil. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:25. God is not doing the believing for the regenerated man, but God will certainly be acting, according to His ordained free, necessary, or contingent means, to ensure that the believing man will persevere in his belief.

9. The decree renders the event certain. Matt. 16:21; Luke 18:31-33; 24:46; Acts 2:23; 13:29; 1 Cor. 11:19.

10. While God has decreed the free acts of men, these moral agents are none the less responsible, for had God not decreed man's freedom to act, there would be no freedom at all. Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27, 28.

1. Since God has decreed all events and, as I have defined above, thusly made all events certain to occur in the future, God foreknows all events.

2. The decree of God relates equally to all events of every type that will occur. This includes free actions of moral agents, the actions of necessary agents, whether these actions be morally right or sinful.

3. That said, and what is often abused by those that are not well-informed about this doctrine, things have been eternally decreed by God under certain aspects.
- God has decreed some things Himself immediately. For example, God’s act to create the universe.
- God has decreed to do make certain some things through the action of secondary causes, causes which act under laws of necessity, such as physical aspect of nature, e.g., planetary motion.
- God has decreed to move or to permit free moral agents to act in the exercise of their free moral agency. Nevertheless, despite these distinctions between these classes of events, they are all rendered certain by the decree of God.​

4. While God has decreed all events, it is vitally important to note that while God’s decree includes the ends, His decree encompasses the means, the causes as well as the effects, the conditions as well as the instrumentalities, for all events that will depend upon the same.

5. While the decree of God determines the certainty of future events, the decree of God neither directly effects or causes no event. (Please read that statement one more time!) But…stay with me…in every case the decree of God provides that these events are rendered certain by causes that are acting in such a manner that is perfectly consistent with the nature of these events in question.

In other words, when considering every free act of a moral agent, God’s decree provides at once, that:

1. the agent is a free agent;
2. the agent’s antecedents and every antecedent of the action in question be what they are;
3. the present conditions of the action be what they are;
4. the action by the agent be perfectly spontaneous (i.e., freedom of spontaneity) on the part of the agent; and
5. it shall be certainly future.

6. The purposes of God that relate to every kind of event constitute one single, comprehensive intention by God’s comprehending all events. Thus God comprehends the free events as free events, the necessary events as necessary events, all together, including all their causes, their relations, their conditions. This comprehension is one, indivisible system of things, every link of which is essential to the vital integrity of the whole.​

God ordains that no violence is done to the will of man, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather they are established by the very decree of God (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27-28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33). When we are monergistically quickened from spiritual death to life, we will be morally equipped to choose rightly. That we will synergistically choose to not not believe is not a robbery of our freedom. At that moment of regeneration we will only want to believe and will do so.
 
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AMR

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If one could be born again only if God chooses him to be born again, then Christ unfairly unjustly condemned Nicodemus for something totally out of Nicodemus' control.
You have improperly interpreted the account of the interaction with Nicodemus.

In John 3:7, Christ says to Nicodemus, “Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'” The non-believers possess no inherent ability to save themselves by their own choosing for they are deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), love darkness rather than light (John 3:19), unrighteous, do not understand, do not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and slaves of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

As Christ states, without the new birth, no one will be saved. Christ here uses a strong term, dei (must), indicating a necessity, that regeneration is essential, imperative, absolutely necessary for salvation.

Some, like yourself, will argue that Nicodemus should take personal responsibility for his own new birth. But nowhere do we find Christ instructing Nicodemus to take personal responsibility and make a decision using his volitional will. Rather, “You must be born again” is a declarative statement of fact, not an imperative command to be obeyed. Our Lord—instead of suggesting Nicodemus take ownership of his situation and do something about it—is teaching exactly the opposite. Christ is teaching that new birth is a necessity, but no man can cause it to happen, even if a man could figure out how to return to the womb. Only God can perform this work.

Now you may complain that Christ telling someone about the necessity to be born again, then also telling them that they have no ability to produce such a work is self-defeating and contradictory. On the contrary, Our Lord's objective was to expose the fallacies of trusting in one’s own efforts and works for salvation. If only being religious and devoted to keeping the law could save a person, Nicodemus was safe, but Christ clearly states that no one is safe, regardless of their works, religious fervor, etc. Because of universal sin, a new birth is a necessity and the debilitating effects of universal sin means no one has the ability to rescue himself. John 3:7 teaches a sinner’s only hope for eternal bliss is through the sovereign grace of God.

The “new birth” is no more or less than the sovereign and direct work of the Holy Spirit. Regeneration (re-birth, quickening) is immediate. Faith is the gracious gift of God in regeneration (Ephesians 2:8). The sinner responds to the life-giving voice of the Jesus Christ (John 5:25) just as Lazarus immediately responded to the command of Jesus in John 11. The quickening of God is an involuntary response, a perfect obedience to the divine imperative of Christ. God is the active cause; the sinner is the passive recipient. This is the grace that is irresistible. God’s gift of faith enables the newborn soul of a person to function spiritually, an ability the person did not have prior to his quickening (John 3:3b; John 3:5b; 1 Corinthians 2:14). The gift also gives the person the ability to believe, that is "ears to hear" (Revelations 2:7; Revelations 2:11; Proverbs 20:12; Matthew 11:15). The gospel good news is, subsequently, addressed to the regenerated (Acts 2:39; Acts 13:16; Acts 13:26), for the unregenerate cannot believe (John. 8:43; John 10:26; Romans 3:10-18).
 
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jimmyjimmy

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If they chose to come follow Him then He would make them fishers of men Mark 1:17.

Do you know how they fished? It was with nets. They didn't try to persuade the fish into the boat. They dragged the fish into the boat.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The bible does not teach God unconditionally chooses each individual's salvation or condemnation. Such an idea puts fault blame and failure upon God for the faithless/lost.

Not even close. Man's sin is why he is lost. They are guilty, and they will be punished, as God will let no sin go unpunished.

Sinners have no one to blame but themselves, and saints have no one to thank but God.
 
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