Free will Question

[ladodgers6]

In a sense, Lutherans have no better friends than the Reformed. That said, there are irreconcilable differences, and those differences really do make all the difference in the world. I would encourage you to do a deep dive on that.

Specifically, and in particularly, from whence does one derive their assurance? From within, or from without?

Lutherans say our assurance can be explained simply with just two words: baptizatus sum, "I'm baptized". That is, assurance is not found within myself, but outside of myself, in God's Word and Sacraments. And that really matters.

-CryptoLutheran

I beg to differ Sir. The Reformers were all united on Justification by Faith in Christ Alone the crux of the Gospel. I have done a deep dive into the Reformation. I suggest you do the same. Because to me it seems you lack a bit.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I beg to differ Sir. The Reformers were all united on Justification by Faith in Christ Alone the crux of the Gospel. I have done a deep dive into the Reformation. I suggest you do the same. Because to me it seems you lack a bit.

But, again, from whence comes assurance? Is it internal or external?

To know if I am the elect of God, where do I look? Do I look inward, or to my works? Or do I look outward, to God's Word and Sacraments?

A chief problem I have with Calvinism is that, if one takes TULIP seriously, it presents a non-assurance. It presents the cause of election as God's sovereign choice, rather than God's gracious love in Christ for the whole world; it presents the elect as unable to fall away and, by contrast, if any should fall away they were never the elect of God.

Says Calvinism, if one believes and then departs from faith, they never believed in the first place. In order, therefore, to have assurance, one inevitably has to turned toward themselves. Because God's external word ceases to be sufficient and efficient if I cannot depend entirely upon it for my assurance; for if my baptism was real grace, if the Lord's Supper is not real grace, if Absolution is not real grace, if the preaching of the Gospel is not real grace--then I inevitably turn inward, to my works.

Which is why I'm presenting this as a question, not a statement: From whence comes assurance? Or to put it another, how can I know I am one of God's elect? Is faith enough, or does something else need to be added? And if faith is enough, then what about those who fall away? Did they have faith, or not? This is a very serious issue, and can't be glossed over.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ladodgers6]

But, again, from whence comes assurance? Is it internal or external?

To know if I am the elect of God, where do I look? Do I look inward, or to my works? Or do I look outward, to God's Word and Sacraments?

Are you familiar with Justification By Faith Alone? Our assurance is in our Surety; meaning Christ and his works. He is the One who fulfilled God's will. Christ came to save sinners. And it's in this state he saves us. The Righteous shall live by Faith to Faith. From beginning to the end it's always Christ.

So we are justified by faith alone in this sense: faith is the instrument by which we embrace Christ; we put our trust in him, and in him alone as the grounds of our salvation. The moment we put our trust in Christ, God in a legal action transfers, or imputes, the righteousness of Jesus to our account.​

A chief problem I have with Calvinism is that, if one takes TULIP seriously, it presents a non-assurance. It presents the cause of election as God's sovereign choice, rather than God's gracious love in Christ for the whole world; it presents the elect as unable to fall away and, by contrast, if any should fall away they were never the elect of God.

Yeah, I understand. When I first became a convinced Classical Calvinist, it was hard for me dealing with Predestination. But this is meat and as a babe in the Faith, I needed the milk first. So, I suggest you start with Justification by Faith Alone and you'll understand how amazing God's Grace really is. A problem a lot of people have is not understanding the gravity of sin. Which leads to a weak view of sin and grace.

So let me ask you, what's your understanding on the gravity of sin?​

Says Calvinism, if one believes and then departs from faith, they never believed in the first place. In order, therefore, to have assurance, one inevitably has to turned toward themselves. Because God's external word ceases to be sufficient and efficient if I cannot depend entirely upon it for my assurance; for if my baptism was real grace, if the Lord's Supper is not real grace, if Absolution is not real grace, if the preaching of the Gospel is not real grace--then I inevitably turn inward, to my works.

In Classical Calvinism we do not believe or teach in easy believism. We are not robots as some claim Calvinism teaches which is false. We must repent, believe, and walk in holiness. But this is not where we place our trust, right? These Christ traits that Paul speaks about in Galatians:
​

Keep in Step with the Spirit​

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who doe such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
​

Paul in Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

This stems or flows from our Justification by Faith in Christ Alone! This is the vine to which gives us newness of life. And always remembering that it is Christ who is our redeemer, the One who suffered for us, become a curse for us, died for us, punished for us, in order that we may be imputed with his righteousness and sanctification. He finished it at the Cross for us. It is God who justifies the ungodly! Notice it says ungodly not godly!

Which is why I'm presenting this as a question, not a statement: From whence comes assurance? Or to put it another, how can I know I am one of God's elect? Is faith enough, or does something else need to be added? And if faith is enough, then what about those who fall away? Did they have faith, or not? This is a very serious issue, and can't be glossed over.

-CryptoLutheran

Justification by Faith Alone is an eschatology event of end judgement in the present time. The moment you believe in God who justifies the ungodly (You/Me)(Romans 4:5). There is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ, right now! The assurance lies only in Christ and his works, which is why Paul keeps saying over and over, that we are justified before God through Faith apart from works! Why? The Law commands perfect obedience; flawless (Galatians 3). And everybody who relies on the works of the law is a curse if they don't keep everything written in the book of the Law; which is impossible for sinner to do, follow? The Law exposes us of our sins, and in need of mercy and grace. The law points to Christ, as Christ said, the Law and Prophets speak about me! This is the only place for a sinner to seek Grace and Mercy, and get it through a Promise God made with Adam & Eve, Abraham.

If you don't come to anticipate the objection Paul comes to in Romans, then one hasn't understood the Gospel good news for the ungodly! Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound? God forbid? But when we sin, Paul says where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more! This is the good news.

Any questions???​

 

[ladodgers6]

But, again, from whence comes assurance? Is it internal or external?

To know if I am the elect of God, where do I look? Do I look inward, or to my works? Or do I look outward, to God's Word and Sacraments?

A chief problem I have with Calvinism is that, if one takes TULIP seriously, it presents a non-assurance. It presents the cause of election as God's sovereign choice, rather than God's gracious love in Christ for the whole world; it presents the elect as unable to fall away and, by contrast, if any should fall away they were never the elect of God.

Says Calvinism, if one believes and then departs from faith, they never believed in the first place. In order, therefore, to have assurance, one inevitably has to turned toward themselves. Because God's external word ceases to be sufficient and efficient if I cannot depend entirely upon it for my assurance; for if my baptism was real grace, if the Lord's Supper is not real grace, if Absolution is not real grace, if the preaching of the Gospel is not real grace--then I inevitably turn inward, to my works.

Which is why I'm presenting this as a question, not a statement: From whence comes assurance? Or to put it another, how can I know I am one of God's elect? Is faith enough, or does something else need to be added? And if faith is enough, then what about those who fall away? Did they have faith, or not? This is a very serious issue, and can't be glossed over.

-CryptoLutheran

God does justify the believing man, yet not for the worthiness of his faith, but for the worthiness in whom is believed; namely Christ Jesus!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you familiar with Justification By Faith Alone? Our assurance is in our Surety; meaning Christ and his works. He is the One who fulfilled God's will. Christ came to save sinners. And it's in this state he saves us. The Righteous shall live by Faith to Faith. From beginning to the end it's always Christ.

So we are justified by faith alone in this sense: faith is the instrument by which we embrace Christ; we put our trust in him, and in him alone as the grounds of our salvation. The moment we put our trust in Christ, God in a legal action transfers, or imputes, the righteousness of Jesus to our account.




Yeah, I understand. When I first became a convinced Classical Calvinist, it was hard for me dealing with Predestination. But this is meat and as a babe in the Faith, I needed the milk first. So, I suggest you start with Justification by Faith Alone and you'll understand how amazing God's Grace really is. A problem a lot of people have is not understanding the gravity of sin. Which leads to a weak view of sin and grace.

So let me ask you, what's your understanding on the gravity of sin?


In Classical Calvinism we do not believe or teach in easy believism. We are not robots as some claim Calvinism teaches which is false. We must repent, believe, and walk in holiness. But this is not where we place our trust, right? These Christ traits that Paul speaks about in Galatians:
​

Keep in Step with the Spirit​

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who doe such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
​

Paul in Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

This stems or flows from our Justification by Faith in Christ Alone! This is the vine to which gives us newness of life. And always remembering that it is Christ who is our redeemer, the One who suffered for us, become a curse for us, died for us, punished for us, in order that we may be imputed with his righteousness and sanctification. He finished it at the Cross for us. It is God who justifies the ungodly! Notice it says ungodly not godly!

Justification by Faith Alone is an eschatology event of end judgement in the present time. The moment you believe in God who justifies the ungodly (You/Me)(Romans 4:5). There is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ, right now! The assurance lies only in Christ and his works, which is why Paul keeps saying over and over, that we are justified before God through Faith apart from works! Why? The Law commands perfect obedience; flawless (Galatians 3). And everybody who relies on the works of the law is a curse if they don't keep everything written in the book of the Law; which is impossible for sinner to do, follow? The Law exposes us of our sins, and in need of mercy and grace. The law points to Christ, as Christ said, the Law and Prophets speak about me! This is the only place for a sinner to seek Grace and Mercy, and get it through a Promise God made with Adam & Eve, Abraham.

If you don't come to anticipate the objection Paul comes to in Romans, then one hasn't understood the Gospel good news for the ungodly! Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound? God forbid? But when we sin, Paul says where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more! This is the good news.

Any questions???​

I think my point has been missed here.

How can I be assured that I am one of God's elect?

You're right on basically everything you've said so far. But my point is how can one know they are one of God's elect?

If Jesus only died for the elect, then if I am not one of those, then I have no justification. If the answer is faith, then how does one address those who having believed now no longer believe?

Allow me to offer an example from my own life. When I was young, in high school, I had a friend who was deeply committed to Jesus, he was very devout. It was the kind of personal devotion to Jesus that I saw and aspired to have. I would often find him in the school library in deep study of the Scriptures by himself. He was very active in his faith, and he had a deep passion for the Lord and for the Gospel.

After high school I lost touch with a lot of people, as is normal. My friend went off to college, and it was almost a decade before I saw him again. When I saw him again he had completely turned away from Christianity. I don't know the details, but I know that he went from someone who had faith to someone who now openly ridiculed faith.

If I take the Calvinist position, I would have to argue that my friend never believed in the first place. In spite of everything--the hearing of the Gospel, his belief in Jesus, his desire to live as a Christian, his baptism, etc--none of that mattered because he had no real faith. If he had real faith, he wouldn't have turned away, seeing as the elect cannot turn away from faith for the grace of God is Irresistable and the elect shall indeed persevere until the end.

That creates this situation: How can I know that my faith is genuine and that I'm not just like my friend here? How can I know my election is certain, and that Christ died for me? If Christ only died for the elect, and I'm not one of the elect, then Christ's work doesn't apply to me and it never can, so the question of assurance is rendered moot, since if I am not one of the elect then I cannot be saved anyway and all talk of assurance is meaningless for me.

However, as a Lutheran the answer is clear: My friend had faith, he was saved, he was truly and fully justified through his faith on account of Christ's totally perfect and all-sufficient work on the cross. He received from God, out of the superabundance of God's grace, the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and was, therefore, justified free and fully by God's grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone. However, he made shipwreck of his faith, he has turned away and has become apostate. That does not mean he is necessarily lost forever, for we have a Good Shepherd who seeks after each lost lamb, and it is God's will and desire to bring all the lost into the sheepfold of grace.

I can know that Christ died for me because the Gospel declares this to be so, because Christ died for everyone. Christ did not die only for the elect, but for all. So even those who will never believe, Christ died for them and His work is all-sufficient and perfect for them. For this reason St. Paul says that through one man's obedience has come justification for all (Romans 5:18). In an objective sense, all have already been justified. There is a forensic, declarative justification for all. So Paul can say to Timothy that God is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe (1 Timothy 4:10). And yet, Paul is also clear in Romans 10, how can they call on Him whom they have never heard, how can they hear unless one is sent to preach, and so it is faith that bridges the gap between the objective work of justification and the subjective work of justification--when God, through the word, creates and works faith in me (Romans 10:17), which is His grace and gift, and not of myself or my works (Ephesians 2:8-9). So it is, indeed, truly the will of God that all to be saved, and all to come to repentance (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9).

My assurance is in the Gospel. My assurance is in my baptism. It is in the Lord's Supper. It is in the words of Absolution. For here is Christ, free and full, His perfect righteousness, His death, and His resurrected life. Here is God declaring me just and justified on Christ's account. I am justified because here God justifies me fully, freely, entirely on account of Christ, by His grace, and through faith (which God Himself gives, works, creates, and strengthens by His word) I am the passive recipient of this immeasurable treasure. My election is not a secret known only to God, but is visibly made known through the external word and works of God: Word and Sacrament. I can, therefore, e.g. look to my baptism and know that I am God's elect child. Baptizatus sum. I am baptized. For the word of God is sure and certain, inviolate, accomplishing what He sets it out to accomplish (Isaiah 55:11).

God does justify the believing man, yet not for the worthiness of his faith, but for the worthiness in whom is believed; namely Christ Jesus!

Agreed. But that isn't what I'm talking about. See above.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ladodgers6]

I think my point has been missed here.

How can I be assured that I am one of God's elect?

You're right on basically everything you've said so far. But my point is how can one know they are one of God's elect?

I have answered it ViaCrucis. By believing and trusting in God who justifies the ungodly. Believing the Gospel announcement in what God has accomplished in his Son. Looking inward has always been the problem. St. Augustine once wrote that after the Fall, sinners are curved in on themselves (bent inward). Trying to find a single shred of goodness they can rely on for assurance or hope, but this is delusion; a fantasy. One must always look "Extra Nos". Outside of themselves to the Cross (Way of the Cross), to Christ the Messiah who came to save sinners. He is our assurance and surety.

The Righteous shall live by Faith to Faith. By Faith for we cannot boast that which is given freely by sheer Grace, not earned by a debt owed, which one can boast. The only thing believing sinners can boast about is in the Cross.

I believe you are asking the wrong questions, ViaCrucis. The question you should be asking. How is a sinner justified before a Holy God? Or how is a sinner saved, right? Trying to figure out who is the elect or non-elect is like try to figure out the mind of God. In Romans Paul warns us about this.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

Interesting enough John Calvin wrote warning people not to speculate about predestination because it is a labyrinth to which there is no return.

So, if one believes and trust God who justifies the ungodly they are in Christ. And if you are in Christ then there is now no more condemnation. And being Justified in Christ through Faith Alone apart from works; we can now live for God by walking in the Spirit. Because we are now created in newness of Life.

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

 

[ladodgers6]

If Jesus only died for the elect, then if I am not one of those, then I have no justification. If the answer is faith, then how does one address those who having believed now no longer believe?

Doesn't this remind of a parable?

The Parable of the Sower​

Luke 8:4 And when a great crowd was gathering and people from town after town came to him, he said in a parable, 5“ A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it. 8 And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.” As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Question?​

 

[ViaCrucis]

Doesn't this remind of a parable?

The Parable of the Sower​

Luke 8:4 And when a great crowd was gathering and people from town after town came to him, he said in a parable, 5“ A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it. 8 And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.” As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Question?​

I understand how the Parable of the Sower answers my question--and I agree with it. I just don't see how Calvinism reconciles the question with the Parable of the Sower.

How does Calvinism address the seed that grew up and withered away, or was choked out by thorns?

That's the issue that I see is being ignored.

You are insisting that I don't understand the doctrine of Justification, I don't know why you keep insisting on that. However, I'm trying to ask how does Calvinism deal with assurance and election in light of those who believe but then later turn away from faith.

Is election something God alone knows?
Or can I know that I am predestined and elect?

You mention faith and Christ's work--and I agree. But that's still missing the point I'm making.

In the example I provided earlier concerning a friend of mine, was my friend saved? There are only three possible answers: Yes, no, and we can't know. If the answer is no, then there's no assurance. If the answer is we can't know, then again, there's no assurance. The only answer in which there can be assurance, is yes. But can Calvinism give that answer?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Know what you believe and why you believe it.​

And this, in a sense, is illustrating a point I raised earlier.

Thus a new question: How can an infant know what it believes and why? Or would you argue that an infant cannot have faith? Is faith contingent upon my own knowledge, my own experience, my own power? Or is faith given totally and entirely extra nos? From outside myself?

Lutherans affirm that faith is extra nos. Which is why even the baptized infant has faith. If one denies faith to infants, then one denies the power of God's word in baptism; and one denies that John the Baptist could leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb in the presence of the Blessed Theotokos as she carried the God-Man within her (Luke 1:41-44).

If my assurance is based on "know what you believe and why you believe it" then my assurance is internal, not external. I am relying on myself, not the word of God.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

Correct! Since it is Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Christ Alone, and Word Alone, then there's no room for myself. I am entirely passive, I do nothing except receive--passively, not actively--what God Himself gives and does. And my assurance is entirely on what Christ has done, which is mine entirely by grace, given to me in Word and Sacrament alone, through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[childeye 2]

I am not a Calvinist either, nor am I attempting to talk poorly of them. My question is completely for knowledge sake.

Do you know of any Christian belief systems that deny free will then?

I'd be interested to know the definition of the term "free will" you are using. Can you qualify what the will is meant to be considered "Free" from when you use the term free will?

For example, this is from the Oxford dictionary of the English language:

free will​

noun
the power to make your own decisions about what to do, without being controlled by God, fate or circumstances.

 

[ladodgers6]

I understand how the Parable of the Sower answers my question--and I agree with it. I just don't see how Calvinism reconciles the question with the Parable of the Sower.

Scripture teaches that God elects whom he wills. We don't know who the elect are, only God knows. If you are looking for a contract with a signature, you will not find it. Jesus said in John 10 that his sheep hear his voice and they follow him. The Gospel is the power unto Salvation, this is why I keep highlighting this for you. If you believe in him who justifies the ungodly, then you are one of the elect. Because the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.​

How does Calvinism address the seed that grew up and withered away, or was choked out by thorns?

Was it true Faith? If they truly believed in Christ and what he did for them, they would not be choked out. Look I am a Classical Calvinist not a Hyper-Calvinist. A lot of people confuse these two, or don't even know that Hyper-Calvinism exist. Hyper-Calvinists don't believe in evangelizing; and other things I disagree with. I have to find my book on the errors of Hyper-Calvinism, and I'll share them with you.​

That's the issue that I see is being ignored.​

I addressed this above. Classical Calvinism vs. Hyper-Calvinism.

You are insisting that I don't understand the doctrine of Justification, I don't know why you keep insisting on that. However, I'm trying to ask how does Calvinism deal with assurance and election in light of those who believe but then later turn away from faith.​

I was hoping you could connect the dots without me giving you the answers. Let me ask you something before I provide the answers. Do you believe that God has a Plan of Salvation?

Is election something God alone knows?
Or can I know that I am predestined and elect?​

Yes, by having Faith in the proclamation of the Gospel. This is not a trick question. If you know that you are a sinner before God, and know that you are condemned under the curse of the Law. And the only place for a sinner is at the Cross of Grace and Mercy. Then you are saved. And if you are saved, then you are in Christ. If you are in Christ then you are one of the elect.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Again stop looking for this ViaCrucis and just trust and believe what God did in his Son for you! This is what saves. Now if you are suggesting you or somebody you know has back sledded, can they come back to faith. The answer is yes. Christ will leave the 99 to find the 1.​

You mention faith and Christ's work--and I agree. But that's still missing the point I'm making.​

No Sir, this is exactly the point! You are trying to validate what Christ accomplished by your activity, or something you can measure, to ensure what Christ did is true. But what Christ came and accomplish always remains true no matter if we believe or not.

In the example I provided earlier concerning a friend of mine, was my friend saved? There are only three possible answers: Yes, no, and we can't know. If the answer is no, then there's no assurance. If the answer is we can't know, then again, there's no assurance. The only answer in which there can be assurance, is yes. But can Calvinism give that answer?

-CryptoLutheran​

A sinner is saved by in Christ through Faith. As I said before, our only assurance is in Christ, who he is and what he accomplished. I will say to you. What did your friend believe? Did your friend get the pure Gospel that Paul preached? Because the Gospel is our assurance and Christ is our surety! Maybe this is why your friend may have problems.

God does justify the believing man, yet not for the worthiness of his faith, but for the worthiness in whom is believed.

I am curious, please define Justification by Faith without googling it, if you can.​

 

[ladodgers6]

And this, in a sense, is illustrating a point I raised earlier.

Thus a new question: How can an infant know what it believes and why? Or would you argue that an infant cannot have faith? Is faith contingent upon my own knowledge, my own experience, my own power? Or is faith given totally and entirely extra nos? From outside myself?

Okay, let's flip this. How is an infant saved in your religion? How are people saved in your religion?

Lutherans affirm that faith is extra nos. Which is why even the baptized infant has faith. If one denies faith to infants, then one denies the power of God's word in baptism; and one denies that John the Baptist could leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb in the presence of the Blessed Theotokos as she carried the God-Man within her (Luke 1:41-44).

Do you really understand what Extra Nos teaches and what it means? I do not think you know.

If my assurance is based on "know what you believe and why you believe it" then my assurance is internal, not external. I am relying on myself, not the word of God.

So then you are suggesting that your decision to choose to accept or reject Christ makes the Cross effectual by your activity? Think about it before you answer. I am trying to help you out.​

Correct! Since it is Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Christ Alone, and Word Alone, then there's no room for myself. I am entirely passive, I do nothing except receive--passively, not actively--what God Himself gives and does. And my assurance is entirely on what Christ has done, which is mine entirely by grace, given to me in Word and Sacrament alone, through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes it is a Free Gift it is not earned, or received by anything good you do. It's God calling sinners to come forth out of the darkness into his marvelous light to receive what he did in his son for you. The healthy man doesn't need a doctor to heal him. Nor does a "righteous man" need a Savior.​

 

[Neostarwcc]

Actually Reformed churches are a mainstream denomination. Presbyterians, Some baptists, Evangelical Anglicans, and in the past the Puritans are/were all reformed/Calvinist Denominations.

To answer your question, no we don't believe in free will as most people today define it. We instead believe what Luther and the Reformers taught about free will which is, that nobody has the ability to choose God and therefore it is God who instead choses us and he has regenerated all believers to believe. We believe that not one person who God means to save will be lost as Jesus states in John 6:37-40.

I recommend you read Luther's book "the bondage of the will" you'd swear it was written by John Calvin but it was in fact, written by Luther. The Protestant church during the Reformers time was mostly Reformed/Calvinist up until around the early 20th century or so then it split up and many heretical teachings and pastors have entered the Protestant church. I'm not saying that Arminians are not saved in fact there are many Godly Arminans out there. I am merely saying that the things Jacob Arminius taught were not taught by the original Reformers and were not believed by a majority of the Protestant church at the time.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Scripture teaches that God elects whom he wills. We don't know who the elect are, only God knows. If you are looking for a contract with a signature, you will not find it. Jesus said in John 10 that his sheep hear his voice and they follow him. The Gospel is the power unto Salvation, this is why I keep highlighting this for you. If you believe in him who justifies the ungodly, then you are one of the elect. Because the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.​

So God alone knows, and therefore I cannot know if I am elect, correct? So I can't have assurance that I belong to Christ?

Was it true Faith? If they truly believed in Christ and what he did for them, they would not be choked out.​

They can't be choked out or wither unless they had faith. If the word took root, then there is faith. So what you are saying is that if a person has faith they cannot fall away.

What I'm saying is that this isn't assurance of election, this is the opposite of that. If a person cannot know if they have "true faith", then they cannot know that the promises of God are for them. And if we cannot trust in God's promises, then we have no assurance--that kills faith.

Look I am a Classical Calvinist not a Hyper-Calvinist. A lot of people confuse these two, or don't even know that Hyper-Calvinism exist. Hyper-Calvinists don't believe in evangelizing; and other things I disagree with. I have to find my book on the errors of Hyper-Calvinism, and I'll share them with you.​

I addressed this above. Classical Calvinism vs. Hyper-Calvinism.

I'm aware of the difference. But I'm not talking about Hyper-Calvinism, I'm talking about traditional Five Point Calvinism.

I was hoping you could connect the dots without me giving you the answers. Let me ask you something before I provide the answers. Do you believe that God has a Plan of Salvation?

I'm not asking these questions because I lack answers. I'm trying to illustrate that one cannot blend Lutheranism and Calvinism, they are like oil and water on this subject. There's a reason why the Lutheran Confessions, and the Lutheran fathers themselves, came down hard against the Calvinists and Crypto-Calvinists. It wasn't out of mean-spiritedness, but because the integrity of the Gospel and the faithful preaching of the Gospel is at stake.

Yes, by having Faith in the proclamation of the Gospel. This is not a trick question. If you know that you are a sinner before God, and know that you are condemned under the curse of the Law. And the only place for a sinner is at the Cross of Grace and Mercy. Then you are saved. And if you are saved, then you are in Christ. If you are in Christ then you are one of the elect.

So my salvation depends upon my ability to properly understand a doctrinal proposition? It's not the persona and work of Christ alone, and God's grace alone, and the faith which He gives alone; but rather it is my ability to understand this proposition that grants me salvation?

I can attest that my friend knew that he was a sinner, condemned by the Law, and that it is only by the Cross that he could have mercy and forgiveness. He wasn't ignorant of the Scriptures, or the basic teachings of the Christian faith. And yet, he no longer believes.

Yet Calvinism insists my friend did not have faith, or "true faith".

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Again stop looking for this ViaCrucis and just trust and believe what God did in his Son for you! This is what saves. Now if you are suggesting you or somebody you know has back sledded, can they come back to faith. The answer is yes. Christ will leave the 99 to find the 1.​

You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to seek assurance for myself. I have assurance, and it's in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Because Christ died for me.

Further: back sliding and apostasy are very different things. I'm not talking about a Christian "back sliding" into sin. We all do that, we do it every day. I'm talking about actual apostasy.

No Sir, this is exactly the point! You are trying to validate what Christ accomplished by your activity, or something you can measure, to ensure what Christ did is true. But what Christ came and accomplish always remains true no matter if we believe or not.

That's an accusation without merit. I have in fact been arguing against that. Look at what I've said already. I've been speaking about the distinction between the internal and the external, between my works and God's works. My works, my feelings, my thoughts, everything I say, think, feel, and do, are worthless. All that matters is what God says and what God does.

That's the difference between the internal (myself and what I do) and the external (what God does and says). I'm saying assurance is based solely on what God says and does.

And I'm trying to help you understand how, from a Lutheran point of view, Calvinism turns inward, to focus on oneself and one's own works, thoughts, feelings. In fact, you've demonstrated that right here. You pointed not to something outside of the believer, to what God has done, but inward to what the believer does.

"If you know you are a sinner" is what you said.

My point, in fact, is that this emphasis on personal ability is unreliable.

You mentioned "true faith", as opposed to, perhaps, a "false faith". If a person has "true faith" then they are saved; by implication that means a person can have a false faith, they can mistakenly think they are a believer, but not actually be a believer. A person can think they have faith in Jesus, but in fact not actually have faith in Jesus.

That places the locus of hope in oneself, rather than in Christ.. What you've said to me so far, if I were to believe what you say, would not give me comfort in the grace and mercy of God.

If a fellow believer comes to you full of sorrow and uncertainty, and your answer to them is, "Well, you can know you're saved just because you'll know" then that isn't exactly good news now is it? That doesn't exactly point one to God's word and promises, it simply points one to oneself and to one's own failings.

A sinner is saved by in Christ through Faith. As I said before, our only assurance is in Christ, who he is and what he accomplished. I will say to you. What did your friend believe? Did your friend get the pure Gospel that Paul preached? Because the Gospel is our assurance and Christ is our surety! Maybe this is why your friend may have problems.

God does justify the believing man, yet not for the worthiness of his faith, but for the worthiness in whom is believed.​

God justifies the unjust on Christ's account, not on the basis of his faith; but on the basis of Christ's work and God's grace. Faith is God's power and work to give us Christ's righteousness, and that upon hearing the word be comforted in confidence in God's word. Only the Holy Spirit can make this happen.

I am curious, please define Justification by Faith without googling it, if you can.​

I have already, but sure. Though your "without googling it, if you can" remark is awfully condescending.

I am declared righteous on Christ's account, for through faith God imputes to me the righteousness of Jesus Christ. And this entirely apart from myself and all my works. It is the gift of God.

Dr. Luther compared faith to the empty hands of a beggar, empty hands have nothing to offer, all they can do is passively receive what is put into them by someone else. Into my empty and worthless and wretched hands God has placed the entire and perfect work of Christ, all of His righteousness, and therefore I am God's child by His grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, let's flip this. How is an infant saved in your religion? How are people saved in your religion?

The same way any other sinner is. By grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone. Therefore when the infant is baptized, he or she is the born again, has received faith.

Do you really understand what Extra Nos teaches and what it means? I do not think you know.

I find that remark amusing. But okay.

So then you are suggesting that your decision to choose to accept or reject Christ makes the Cross effectual by your activity? Think about it before you answer. I am trying to help you out.​

Just the opposite, in fact. The work of Christ is finished and accomplished, and nothing I can say or do can add or take away from it.

What seems to be breezing right by you, however, is the singular point I've been repeatedly talking about this entire time. That my assurance cannot come from myself, my decision, my ability, my knowledge, my strength, my feelings, or literally anything else about me or within me. My assurance can come exclusively and solely from the external word and promise of God.

What Christ has done IS my assurance, because it is FOR ME. I can know this, have assurance of this, because God says so in His word. Because God says so in His Sacraments.

Perhaps it is my mistake for not simply spelling it out this entire time until now.

Yes it is a Free Gift it is not earned, or received by anything good you do. It's God calling sinners to come forth out of the darkness into his marvelous light to receive what he did in his son for you. The healthy man doesn't need a doctor to heal him. Nor does a "righteous man" need a Savior.​

Of course it is.

But how does Calvinism give comfort to the troubled conscience when one begins to tremble in doubt? By saying, "Well, if you are one of the elect, you can't fall away; and if you aren't one of the elect it doesn't matter anyway"? Or by saying "You can know you are saved because you just know"? That's not comfort, that's the opposite of comfort. That isn't Gospel, that's the opposite of the Gospel.

The Gospel is much purer than that: Christ died for you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ladodgers6]

So God alone knows, and therefore I cannot know if I am elect, correct? So I can't have assurance that I belong to Christ?

Aye, look ViaCrucis, I have answered this question. You are continually trying to find something worthy in yourself to validate the Cross. This is the problem. The ungodly look only at the Cross and its worthiness to justify and this is the only assurance a sinners receives. Do you really understand the Gospel and its announcement of what God accomplished in His Son?

Please define it for me.
​

They can't be choked out or wither unless they had faith. If the word took root, then there is faith. So what you are saying is that if a person has faith they cannot fall away.

See, this shows me that you don't understand the pure Gospel that Paul preached. It's not our Faith that saves, it's the objective of our Faith that saves; namely Christ Jesus.

I asked before and I'll ask you again, Do you believe or hold a view that God has a Plan of Salvation? Or is in your view Salvation is random, and only possible? Who's doing the saving and redeeming? Why do sinners need a Savior?

Here, read this and tell me your thoughts?

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now if you have eternal life are you one of the elect? You answer this.​

 

[ladodgers6]

The same way any other sinner is. By grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone. Therefore when the infant is baptized, he or she is the born again, has received faith.



I find that remark amusing. But okay.



Just the opposite, in fact. The work of Christ is finished and accomplished, and nothing I can say or do can add or take away from it.

What seems to be breezing right by you, however, is the singular point I've been repeatedly talking about this entire time. That my assurance cannot come from myself, my decision, my ability, my knowledge, my strength, my feelings, or literally anything else about me or within me. My assurance can come exclusively and solely from the external word and promise of God.

What Christ has done IS my assurance, because it is FOR ME. I can know this, have assurance of this, because God says so in His word. Because God says so in His Sacraments.

Perhaps it is my mistake for not simply spelling it out this entire time until now.



Of course it is.

But how does Calvinism give comfort to the troubled conscience when one begins to tremble in doubt? By saying, "Well, if you are one of the elect, you can't fall away; and if you aren't one of the elect it doesn't matter anyway"? Or by saying "You can know you are saved because you just know"? That's not comfort, that's the opposite of comfort. That isn't Gospel, that's the opposite of the Gospel.

The Gospel is much purer than that: Christ died for you.

-CryptoLutheran

This conversation is very odd. I hope you are not confusing my post with someone else's. Because you know I believe in Justification By Faith Alone, right? Why you argue with me over assurance is perplexing to me. Because as Luther once wrote it's not our Faith that saves, but Christ Alone! Faith is passive it only rests and receives what saves. Faith is just an instrument; a conduit. So, where can a sinner find refuge, Peace of conscience, refuge, assurance, confidence? In Christ Alone! He is our surety, our assurance, our redemption, our sanctification, our Peace with God.

Martin Luther was a Protestant reformer who taught that justification by faith alone is the core of the Christian gospel. He believed that a sinner is saved by trusting in Christ's work and not by personal performance or inherent righteousness (Legalism). He said that this doctrine is "the article upon which the church stands or falls" and that any church that teaches otherwise is a harlot church. This is the "Crux" of the Gospel, and without it, nothing else matters!

You mentioned "You", in the Proclamation of the Gospel this goes without saying, because in preaching both Law & Gospel together, sinners in need of a Savior will hear it, right? But the assurance as we were discussing earlier ViaCrucis (Way of Cross), is the Cross. Where Wrath & Mercy meet.

You can disagree with me, which again I think is odd, because we both agree that Justification by Faith Alone (Which is shorthand for Christ Alone/Grace Alone) is our assurance, peace, joy, love, refuge, confidence, salvation, redemption, sanctification, and our reconciliation. And it's only there Alone!

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

 

[ViaCrucis]

Aye, look ViaCrucis, I have answered this question. You are continually trying to find something worthy in yourself to validate the Cross.​

I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to reach this conclusion. I have, quite literally, and explicitly, been saying the exact opposite. So I don't know if it is a failure on my part to properly communicate, or if you are simply missing the point I've been trying to make.

This is the problem. The ungodly look only at the Cross and its worthiness to justify and this is the only assurance a sinners receives. Do you really understand the Gospel and its announcement of what God accomplished in His Son?

Please define it for me.


See, this shows me that you don't understand the pure Gospel that Paul preached. It's not our Faith that saves, it's the objective of our Faith that saves; namely Christ Jesus.

I asked before and I'll ask you again, Do you believe or hold a view that God has a Plan of Salvation? Or is in your view Salvation is random, and only possible? Who's doing the saving and redeeming? Why do sinners need a Savior?

Here, read this and tell me your thoughts?

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now if you have eternal life are you one of the elect? You answer this.​

This is apparently going to go around in circles without any end in sight. So rather than keep this conversation going, I think I'll bow out for the time being. But for the sake of answering your questions:

The Gospel is the Good News of what God has done for us in and through Christ: His perfect life, His passion, His death, His resurrection, His present reign, and His coming again on the Last Day. It is God's undying love which He has for all, that from before the worlds began that He should love His creation. It is God's undying love with which He loves the sinner, and sent His only-begotten Son. It is His gracious giving of Himself in Christ for all men, every single person.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever trusts in Him should not perish but have life everlasting" (John 3:16)

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8

God, out of the riches of His kindness, love, and grace, has chosen us in Christ from before all ages.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." - Ephesians 1:3-10

For since Adam, all are sinful and dead in their trespasses, for through the one man's disobedience came sin and death to all men.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" - Romans 5:12

For this reason,

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23

The Law of God, has therefore, become a curse by which we are condemned,

"For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the Law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death." - Romans 7:5

"The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me." - Romans 7:11

"Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what was good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure." - Romans 7:13

And so therefore, by the one Man--Christ--by His perfect obedience and death has achieved for us what we could not do, and therefore has wrought justification for all men,

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one Man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the Law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:18-21

"But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

Therefore, the Gospel is the very power of God to save all who believe, and that there is now a righteousness apart from the Law, a righteousness of faith which is, indeed, the very righteousness of Jesus Christ--Christ is our righteousness.

"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" - Romans 1:16-17

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the Law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to wit--the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as the atonement by His blood, to be received by faith. This was to demonstrate God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over former sins. It was to show His righteousness at the present time, so that He might be just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:21-26

"God c hose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that as it is written, 'Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" - 1 Corinthians 1:28-31

So that what the Law was powerless to do, to make sinners righteous, God has now done,

"For God has done what the Law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:3-4

We are, therefore, the beneficiaries of God's promise and work in Christ,

"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by Whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him." - Romans 8:15-17

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30

"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem those who were under the Law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!' So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God." - Galatians 4:4-7

Therefore none who trust in Him shall be put to shame, and all who call on His name shall be saved,

"For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing His riches on all who call on Him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-12

In order that these things not remain concealed and hidden, God has called forth preachers to preach, that the word might come and bring forth these things,

"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!' But they have not all received the Gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17

Thus all is the work and gift and grace of God,

"For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works so that none may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Before I exit this conversation, do you have any other questions, or would you like me to clarify anything?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ladodgers6]

I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to reach this conclusion. I have, quite literally, and explicitly, been saying the exact opposite. So I don't know if it is a failure on my part to properly communicate, or if you are simply missing the point I've been trying to make.

I guess I was waiting for you agree, but I got the vibe that you were hesitate to agree for some reason.

This is apparently going to go around in circles without any end in sight. So rather than keep this conversation going, I think I'll bow out for the time being. But for the sake of answering your questions:

The Gospel is the Good News of what God has done for us in and through Christ: His perfect life, His passion, His death, His resurrection, His present reign, and His coming again on the Last Day. It is God's undying love which He has for all, that from before the worlds began that He should love His creation. It is God's undying love with which He loves the sinner, and sent His only-begotten Son. It is His gracious giving of Himself in Christ for all men, every single person.

Oh, here we go. So you have an issue with predestination and election in particular. You adamantly disagree with the predestination/election doctrine. You asked how do I know I am one of the elect, and I kept answering over and over again, but I guess it wasn't to your satisfaction. Believing and trusting in who justifies the ungodly is how we know. It's Extra Nos I kept saying, that there is nothing inside of us where we can find refuge or find peace and for that matter know we are one of the elect. It's being in Christ through Faith that we have peace, joy, assurance, redemption, justification, sanctification, and all the heavenly blessings. And we have all of this in Christ ViaCrucis then we are the Elect. As Luther once wrote Justification by Faith Alone is the article upon the church stands or falls.

Both Luther and Calvin with the Reformers were in unison on the crux of the Gospel. John Calvin taught that believers can have a sure and certain knowledge, an assurance that they are justified by Faith in Christ. Faith is the "instrument" by which the sinner receives the righteousness of another; namely Jesus Christ. Faith is a thing merely passive, bringing nothing of our own to conciliate the favor of God, but receiving what we need from Christ.

So it's the Gospel where we find Christ and all his heavenly blessings. Where else can one find assurance and peace? This is what I been saying all along. But for some reason you want to disagree with me just because I am a Calvinist? What I find very odd Viacrucis, is that we both are on the same side of the Reformation. I feel like you din't want to hear a thing I had to say. This is why I keep repeating myself, but it wasn't to your satisfaction.

I'll say it again, one can know they are the elect by believing in him who justifies the ungodly. Now if one believes, are they one of the elect ViaCrucis? Or is there something inside of them that is more valuable than Christ?

I have to be direct with you. You throw me for a loop, because being a confessed Lutheran, I thought you of all people would have understand what I was saying. I learned so much from Luther, he was the first Reformer I read and learned about Justification by Faith Alone. Especially his commentaries on Romans and Galatians, and a course his bondage of the will. The Reformers did not all agree on everything. But they sure all stand together upon this crus of the Gospel, that's for sure.

Anyways, thanks for the dialogue and I bid you a farewell.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

 

[ViaCrucis]

I guess I was waiting for you agree, but I got the vibe that you were hesitate to agree for some reason.

Oh, here we go. So you have an issue with predestination and election in particular.​

The way Calvinism interprets them, yes. As confessed in the Lutheran Confessions, not only do I not have a problem, I confess and believe them completely.

This is why I suggested doing a dive into the Reformation, because the differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism are not minor. We may use some of the same words and concepts, but we mean quite different things.

I'll offer an example from the Solid Declaration of of the Formula of Concord on the issue of Election,

I would encourage reading the entire Article here, as well as the follow-up to it in the Epitome of the Solid Declaration, and this will be a sizeable quote, but I feel it all relevant in providing necessary nuance and clarification to the Lutheran understanding of these things:

"Nor is this eternal election or ordination of God to eternal life to be considered in God’s secret, inscrutable counsel in such a bare manner as though it comprised nothing further, or as though nothing more belonged to it, and nothing more were to be considered in it, than that God foresaw who and how many were to be saved, who and how many were to be damned, or that He only held a [sort of military] muster, thus: 'This one shall be saved, that one shall be damned; this one shall remain steadfast [in faith to the end], that one shall not remain steadfast.'

For from this [notion] many derive and conceive strange, dangerous, and pernicious thoughts, which occasion and strengthen either security and impenitence or despondency and despair, so that they fall into troublesome thoughts and [for thus some think, with peril to themselves, nay, even sometimes] say: Since, before the foundation of the world was laid, Eph. 1:4, God has foreknown [predestinated] His elect to salvation, and God’s foreknowledge [election] cannot fail nor be hindered or changed by any one, Is. 14:27; Rom. 9:19, therefore, if I am foreknown [elected] to salvation, nothing can injure me with respect to it, even though I practise all sorts of sin and shame without repentance, have no regard for the Word and Sacraments, concern myself neither with repentance, faith, prayer, nor godliness; but I shall and must be saved nevertheless, because God’s foreknowledge [election] must come to pass. If, however, I am not foreknown [predestinated], it helps me nothing anyway, even though I would occupy myself with the Word, repent, believe, etc.; for I cannot hinder or change God’s foreknowledge [predestination].

And indeed also to godly hearts, even when, by God’s grace they have repentance, faith, and a good purpose [of living in a godly manner], such thoughts occur as these: If you are not foreknown [predestinated or elected] from eternity to salvation, everything [your every effort and entire labor] is of no avail. This occurs especially when they view their weakness and the examples of those who have not persevered [in faith to the end], but have fallen away again [from true godliness to ungodliness, and have become apostates].

To this false delusion and [dangerous] thought we should oppose the following clear argument, which is sure and cannot fail, namely: Since all Scripture, given by inspiration of God, is to serve, not for [cherishing] security and impenitence, but for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Tim. 3:16; also, since everything in God’s Word has been prescribed to us, not that we should thereby be driven to despair, but that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope, Rom. 15:4, therefore it is without any doubt in no way the sound sense or right use of the doctrine concerning the eternal foreknowledge of God that either impenitence or despair should be occasioned or strengthened thereby. Accordingly, the Scriptures teach this doctrine in no other way than to direct us thereby to the [revealed] Word, Eph. 1:13; 1 Cor. 1:7; exhort to repentance, 2 Tim. 3:16; urge to godliness, Eph. 1:14; John 15:3; strengthen faith and assure us of our salvation, Eph. 1:13; John 10:27f ; 2 Thess. 2:13f.

Therefore, if we wish to think or speak correctly and profitably concerning eternal election, or the predestination and ordination of the children of God to eternal life, we should accustom ourselves not to speculate concerning the bare, secret, concealed, inscrutable foreknowledge of God, but how the counsel, purpose, and ordination of God in Christ Jesus, who is the true Book of Life, is revealed to us through the Word, namely, that the entire doctrine concerning the purpose, counsel, will, and ordination of God pertaining to our redemption, call, justification, and salvation should be taken together; as Paul treats and has explained this article Rom. 8:29f ; Eph. 1:4f , as also Christ in the parable, Matt. 22:1ff , namely, that God in His purpose and counsel ordained [decreed]:

1. That the human race is truly redeemed and reconciled with God through Christ, who, by His faultless [innocency] obedience, suffering, and death, has merited for us the righteousness which avails before God, and eternal life.

2. That such merit and benefits of Christ shall be presented, offered, and distributed to us through His Word and Sacraments.

3. That by His Holy Ghost, through the Word, when it is preached, heard, and pondered, He will be efficacious and active in us, convert hearts to true repentance, and preserve them in the true faith.

4. That He will justify all those who in true repentance receive Christ by a true faith, and will receive them into grace, the adoption of sons, and the inheritance of eternal life.

5. That He will also sanctify in love those who are thus justified, as St. Paul says, Eph. 1:4.

6. That He also will protect them in their great weakness against the devil, the world, and the flesh, and rule and lead them in His ways, raise them again [place His hand beneath them], when they stumble, comfort them under the cross and in temptation, and preserve them [for life eternal].

7. That He will also strengthen, increase, and support to the end the good work which He has begun in them, if they adhere to God’s Word, pray diligently, abide in God’s goodness [grace], and faithfully use the gifts received.

8. That finally He will eternally save and glorify in life eternal those whom He has elected, called, and justified.

And [indeed] in this His counsel, purpose, and ordination God has prepared salvation not only in general, but has in grace considered and chosen to salvation each and every person of the elect who are to be saved through Christ, also ordained that in the way just mentioned He will, by His grace, gifts, and efficacy, bring them thereto [make them participants of eternal salvation], aid, promote, strengthen, and preserve them.

All this, according to the Scriptures, is comprised in the doctrine concerning the eternal election of God to adoption and eternal salvation, and is to be understood by it, and never excluded nor omitted, when we speak of God’s purpose, predestination, election, and ordination to salvation. And when our thoughts concerning this article are thus formed according to the Scriptures, we can by God’s grace simply [and correctly] adapt ourselves to it [and advantageously treat of it]." - The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, Article XI, 9-24

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In brief: Predestination applies only to Election, and its purpose is to provide comfort to the believer that they might have assurance that God has chosen them for salvation; they can know this because God has revealed this through His Word, He comforts us with this assurance through Word and Sacrament. It cannot be used to either feed impenitence nor despair; but rather to lift up the Faithful in hope.

Election does not mean I cannot fall away, regardless of what I do.
Election does not mean that God has chosen some to not be saved.

If I persist in impenitence, and return again to faithlessness, I shall be as any other unbeliever: Lost and dead in my sin.

Conversely, I shall never have to wonder if I am one of God's elect, because this assurance is mine because God declares His will to us in the Scriptures, and has manifested His will through the preaching of the Word and in His Holy Sacraments. For Christ shall cling to me, as He has promised, that not one given to Him shall be plucked from His hand.

You adamantly disagree with the predestination/election doctrine. You asked how do I know I am one of the elect, and I kept answering over and over again, but I guess it wasn't to your satisfaction. Believing and trusting in who justifies the ungodly is how we know. It's Extra Nos I kept saying, that there is nothing inside of us where we can find refuge or find peace and for that matter know we are one of the elect. It's being in Christ through Faith that we have peace, joy, assurance, redemption, justification, sanctification, and all the heavenly blessings. And we have all of this in Christ ViaCrucis then we are the Elect. As Luther once wrote Justification by Faith Alone is the article upon the church stands or falls.

Both Luther and Calvin with the Reformers were in unison on the crux of the Gospel. John Calvin taught that believers can have a sure and certain knowledge, an assurance that they are justified by Faith in Christ. Faith is the "instrument" by which the sinner receives the righteousness of another; namely Jesus Christ. Faith is a thing merely passive, bringing nothing of our own to conciliate the favor of God, but receiving what we need from Christ.

So it's the Gospel where we find Christ and all his heavenly blessings. Where else can one find assurance and peace? This is what I been saying all along. But for some reason you want to disagree with me just because I am a Calvinist? What I find very odd Viacrucis, is that we both are on the same side of the Reformation. I feel like you din't want to hear a thing I had to say. This is why I keep repeating myself, but it wasn't to your satisfaction.

I'll say it again, one can know they are the elect by believing in him who justifies the ungodly. Now if one believes, are they one of the elect ViaCrucis? Or is there something inside of them that is more valuable than Christ?

I have to be direct with you. You throw me for a loop, because being a confessed Lutheran, I thought you of all people would have understand what I was saying. I learned so much from Luther, he was the first Reformer I read and learned about Justification by Faith Alone. Especially his commentaries on Romans and Galatians, and a course his bondage of the will. The Reformers did not all agree on everything. But they sure all stand together upon this crus of the Gospel, that's for sure.

Anyways, thanks for the dialogue and I bid you a farewell.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

The peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

-CryptoLutheran