Free Will or Predestination

[Hammster]

Really? and why dont they care? is it because they are not granted the same grace that caused you "Chris" to care?

They don't care because they love the darkness.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Because the differences is Heaven or Hell, why shouldnt I worry?

Jesus used to say, "Oh ye of little faith."

 

[phoenixdem]

They don't care because they love the darkness.

That may be true. I think also they don't care because they don't know anything else. They have their world that they live in, and their knowledge of anything else is limited. They study things like parallel universes, ghosts and reincarnation. They develop their own theory about this life and continued existence after death. Many think that everything simply ends at death and their consciousness and body will cease to exist. There are many who do think about life after death, for instance, the books about people who come back from death and write a book are popular. They will clutch at straws to develop their theories and look at Christianity as nonsense. Many are hostile toward Christianity and Christians. The most hostile are generally those who believe in a god and think the Christian God is either made-up or is a vindictive God who they cannot love.

 

[Robs07M6S]

They don't care because they love the darkness.

And so would you unless God had shown you otherwise. I guess we could go around in circles all day about this. lol.

But you know Hammster that the only reason you were plucked from darkness and pulled to the light was because God granted it to you while not granting it to someone else.

 

[Hammster]

And so would you unless God had shown you otherwise. I guess we could go around in circles all day about this. lol.

But you know Hammster that the only reason you were plucked from darkness and pulled to the light was because God granted it to you while not granting it to someone else.

I know. That's very humbling.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I know. That's very humbling.

Okay so we agree there. Now where I have a hard time understanding is why God would command one to repent who he never intended to save in the first place? is it only to further their condemnation?

 

[Hammster]

Okay so we agree there. Now where I have a hard time understanding is why God would command one to repent who he never intended to save in the first place? is it only to further their condemnation?

I don't know for sure. But it's not a problem exclusive to Calvinism.

 

[Skala]

Okay so we agree there. Now where I have a hard time understanding is why God would command one to repent who he never intended to save in the first place? is it only to further their condemnation?

God commands to repent because he cannot do otherwise.

Since men are sinners, that obligates God, who is holy and just and hates sin, to command them to repent.

 

[iLogos]

No, I do understand that everyone is born dead in sins and trespasses but I dont see how that negates my point that the only reason that YOU yourself was able to repent and believe is because God granted it to you while simply choosing not to grant it to others.

But you see there is a problem with this and I think its found in Heb 12:15-17 where we see its mans responsibility to not MISS the grace of God.

There's that and also another problem on the other extreme to consider too.

Heb 12:15 points to free will,

yet how can free will exist and God be still in complete control?

Total free will would suggest that there are moments when God takes a step back, becomes neutral and allows man to decide his fate.

That would imply that in the strictest sense, God is not in control at that moment even if He knows the out come.

Hard to reconcile these two very different points together.

I'm still reading BOETTNER, LORAINE The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. It really is a good read.

While I admit there is free will, even in this view there are serious problems that are hard to resolve biblically.

So back to neutral I go..

I'm really beginning to dislike these threads

 

[Skala]

There's that and also another problem on the other extreme to consider too.

Heb 12:15 points to free will,

yet how can free will exist and God be still in complete control?

Total free will would suggest that there are moments when God takes a step back, becomes neutral and allows man to decide his fate.

That would imply that in the strictest sense, God is not in control at that moment even if He knows the out come.

Hard to reconcile these two very different points together.

I'm still reading BOETTNER, LORAINE The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. It really is a good read.

While I admit there is free will, even in this view there are serious problems that are hard to resolve biblically.

So back to neutral I go..

I'm really beginning to dislike these threads

I'm really, really glad you're reading that

You should also read AW Pink's The Sovereignty of God

 

[Robs07M6S]

Heb 12:15 points to free will,

Im glad it isnt just me that see's the issue with Hebrews 12:15 especially 15-17 when it comes to free will and predestination.

 

[iLogos]

I'm really, really glad you're reading that

You should also read AW Pink's The Sovereignty of God

I found the PDF for that Here.

I will look for a The Word module for it later, if not I will read the pdf.

BTW, both books were prolly written around the same time. Boettner wrote Predestination 1932.

OK I found a e-sword module for AW Pink's The Sovereignty of God and converted a copy for The Word too!

Any one interested in getting a copy for either system PM.

 

[Skala]

Cool. I had the pleasure of hearing the audio version of Sovereignty of God from Christianaudio.com. I'd recommend it to any and all Christians.

Be careful when reading the Sovereignty of God. There's 2 editions. One is published by, Ironically, The Banner of Truth, which removes huge sections of Pink's original chapters that involve God's sovereignty in salvation.

 

[iLogos]

Im glad it isnt just me that see's the issue with Hebrews 12:15 especially 15-17 when it comes to free will and predestination.

Do you have the Word bro? If not, I highly recommend you get it. It's absolutely free and the Best most powerful Bible Study program out there!

Read more about it Here!

I started on the e-sword but recently switch over to the Word because it's simply hands down the best!

It is a great tool for Bible study, you can also install numerous books, dictionaries, and commentaries and make your own too! The features are endless!

The book I'm reading now is available for the Word, so while I am reading it, I can conduct word studies and scripture references against all my books and Bibles installed!

 

[His_disciple3]

Romans 12:1-2
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV

I preach Romans 12:1-2 probably more than any other verses, so we were preaching on them this past Sunday, And the thought came to me, that this was yet another Black eye for calvinist, For ( Paul, the one that calvinists says preached the Doctrine of total depravity) Or that is according to calvinist, (Or other wise known as the "T" in t.u.l.i.p.). But in Romans 12:1-2 Paul states the good and acceptable, the perfect "WILL OF GOD" However Paul Is found here BEGGING the ELECT/brethren, to do the will of God. IF Paul taught that God was the sole controller of Men and men had no say what they believed or what they did ( as the calvinist says Paul preached this, along with Jesus also preaching this, then why is Paul begging, someone to do the perfect will of God, If God would force someone into heaven by predetermined election, Would He not have them do His perfect and acceptable will of God in their life? and If paul knew this and preached that everyone has to do the will of God, why is he found begging them to do the right things in life in Romans 12?. so 1 John the whole world either don't mean what scriptures says, and calvinist are right, about "L" limited atonement. or the whole world does mean what is says and we have to spell the calvinist doctrine of Grace T.U.I.P. and now Paul Here knows that not even all the elect will always do the perfect will of God and is found begging them to do the will of God, so either this don't mean what is says or the Bible does mean what is says, and we now have to spell the doctrine of Grace according to calvinist U.I.P. and to me according to Romans 12:1-2 it does appear that man has some control in the way they live their lives!!

 

[iLogos]

Good point. My feeling is such that there is no denying there is much truth in Calvinism, it really is true. I don't think it is the complete or absolute truth on this matter. That there is a level of free will is really undeniably true too!

The problem arises when trying to resolve this free will with The Sovereignty of God. And frankly sir, nether side can do it adequately.

So I'm wondering if there is more to the picture then meets the eye. And I'm also wondering how much the Apostles and early Church Fathers also understood because then we do begin to see disagreement.

I think Calvin tried to over simplify every thing and leave nothing undone. And did a great job except for resolving the issue of free will with God's Sovereignty.

I'm still very much enjoying my reading and study on this matter!

 

[iLogos]

I found the PDF for that Here.

I will look for a The Word module for it later, if not I will read the pdf.

BTW, both books were prolly written around the same time. Boettner wrote Predestination 1932.

OK I found a e-sword module for AW Pink's The Sovereignty of God and converted a copy for The Word too!

Any one interested in getting a copy for either system PM.

bumping this because I converted a copy for The Word!

 

[Raymond M]

I can see how it can be both very easily. Lets take a thread which represents your physical life from birth to death. God can clearly see the thread from the beginning and the end and everything in between. But now as we are born the thread slowly changes color as it goes from one side to the other. The thread is on a wall with little poles sticking out and we can pull that thread to any pole we wish as we make choices. God can help us choose which poles to put the thread on as we guide ourselves through our lives.

God can still see the whole thread, but we can modify and change things with Gods help. I really hope that doesn't sound confusing. I believe its both, I don't think we should try to comprehend what our Lord can see and think for I think it will drive us mere mortals insane. Quiet possibly some brain frying. lol

 

[DeaconDean]

How come when I mention A.W. Pink, nobody thinks or even reacts to it, but somebody else mentions him, that is the greatest thing since sliced bread.



God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

What we are actually debating here is not what God can see, I think we can all agree God see's it all, and at once too.

The real issue here boils down to free will and God's Sovereignty. Who's in control? Or how much free will do we really have.

If we say we have complete free will, then we over rule God.
If we say we have little or no free will, God rules.

The problem with no little or free will is it takes some responsibly away from us. If God is always making all the choices, then God also becomes the author of evil. God would have caused Hitler to rise to power rather then the evils of men.

No matter which position you take, there will be problems.

Obviously we have some free will, which God allows and can over ride at any time. This would place at least some of the responsibility back to us, but also imply God is not always in complete control.

See the problem?

Saying a little bit of both doesn't really solve this dilemma.