Free Will or Predestination

[Skala]

But see bro, thats just it...........when we deal with an eternal God who knows neither a beggining or an end then their is no logical order when we deal with it from Gods perspective.

Now from our human perspective in which things do happen in an order of events from start to finish you are 100 percent correct.

Ok, but Paul worded it that way on purpose to teach us something. And Paul was inspired by God the Holy Spirit.

The point is, God wanted us to know that we were called and justified on the basis of being predestined, not vice versa.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Ok, but Paul worded it that way on purpose to teach us something. And Paul was inspired by God the Holy Spirit.

The point is, God wanted us to know that we were called and justified on the basis of being predestined, not vice versa.

Yes, im not disagreeing with you at all. I just thought that maybe I could finally put into words what it is that I was trying to say and perhaps it would help you understand the root of my confusion.

Im not very good at putting things to words on an internet forum skala so I apologize for being difficult to read.

 

[iLogos]

Free Will or Predestination?? The following teaching makes complete sense to me, and I never really understood the harmony between the two until I heard this. The Bible CLEARLY teaches BOTH...sometimes people get wrapped up in one aspect of a particular doctrine that they close off all other parts of it that they are uncomfortable with.

Listen to this teaching on the subject by Dr. Chuck Missler:

[snipped]

Free Will and Predestination ONLY seems like a contradiction because we only know what life is like WITHIN the spacetime domain...but God exists OUTSIDE of both space and time, as He is Creator. When you take that in account the paradox vanishes...do I completely understand that? Well no, I'm not a Quantum Physicist. We have proven much of this through Quantum mechanics, and it has been called the "silliest theory proposed in the 20th century," and that "the ONLY thing it has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct."

We have reached a point in science in which we know this is true, yet it apparently contradicts most of what we know... but of what we know in science, Quantum theory MUST be true. A paradox again, which is rooted in the old free will/predestination paradox.

Like Paul said, we truly do "see through a glass darkly" (1 Corinthians 13).

I think the real question should be to what degree do we have free will? That we can decide which drug to take or what bank to rob, or which woman to chase or what carrier to seek or what our favorite flavor of ice cream is does not really answer the question fully imho.

 

[His_disciple3]

I am not. I am asking you serious and honest questions. I don't understand why you are getting frustrated, except that many pastors do not respond well to challenges. It comes from having to "defend the turf" against everyone that complains and attacks. But unfortunately, that makes it hard to be a disciple which is a learner.

Thank you. Doesn't that sound like the point I was making to you? You're saying it might not mean unicorn but might mean rhino. I'm exactly showed you that the word in that passage doesn't mean "might redeem" or "might not redeem" but means "to redeem" and you have mistranslated it. So, with the word "unicorn" you admit the KJV may be wrong, but with Titus 2:14 you will not even entertain the suggestion, but instead retreat to the defense of not understanding Greek. Interesting.

No, if you are going to be consistent with your interpretation of Titus 2:14 and refuse to look at other possibilities for "might not redeem" then no, there is only one possibility - the unicorn. That's what the KJV says, therefore it must be a unicorn.

However, if you were not so inflexible and would use study techniques, you would find that other translations, and the original Hebrew word, indicate this is a "wild ox" not a unicorn as people in King James' day might have thought to translate it. However, you should be consistent and stick to unicorn if you are going to stick with "might redeem" and "might not redeem."

and yet, when it doesn't disagree with you, you use Greek

Could you explain to me why you use Greek whenever and wherever you wish, but refuse to check it against the passage I questioned you on? Either stick to the KJV only, or use proper study resources consistently please.

And all this Greek was to no avail, for apparently you paid no attention to the last part of my previous post:

post #114: p.s. - I believe Christ died for all...."

I never said nor will I ever say that the HOLY word Of God is wrong!!!!! NOw you can twist whatever He says and what I say, but please don't ever say that I said His word is wrong!! I am not saying that they should have said that it was a rhino instead of a uniciorn, but saying a rose by anyother name will smell as sweet, the word unicorn could describe a rhino or a rhino could descibe a unicorn. so either one would not be wrong. NOw as far as your GREEK you keep trying to sell. I have also said that if in one place in scriptures we can find That He died for the WHOLE WORLD then all places concerning salvation should reflect that, there is no contradictions, So if He did die for the Whole World as John said in 1 JOhn 2 then the KJ translators got it right by saying might be redeemed, but again I beg you if you want to continue to fight against the Holy Word of God in English please start another thread!

 

[His_disciple3]

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV
Ok I have a question "according to the foreknowledge" what was it God foreknew that He based His election on ? please base this on scripture , not something Spurgeon or John Mac said. for the way i see it, here it explains that His foreknowledge was that He knew who would be sanctified through obedience and of the Blood! if a dead man can't respond to God how can one be obedient? or do we have a choice to be obedient or to be disobedient?

 

[Hupomone10]

I never said nor will I ever say that the HOLY word Of God is wrong!!!!! NOw you can twist whatever He says and what I say, but please don't ever say that I said His word is wrong!! I am not saying that they should have said that it was a rhino instead of a uniciorn, but saying a rose by anyother name will smell as sweet, the word unicorn could describe a rhino or a rhino could descibe a unicorn.

Then you should have no problem admitting that "might" may mean "to redeem" instead of "might redeem" or "might not redeem". Who knows? If unicorn means rhino instead of what the Hebrew dictionary says when it says it means "wild ox", maybe, just maybe, the real meaning of the Greek word for "might redeem" really means "to redeem." You have me convinced!

But trust me on this one, a rhino probably doesn't smell as sweet as a unicorn.

I gather from these conversations that you don't want to admit you are wrong on this word regarding "to redeem." Ok, we can agree to disagree.

For my part, I don't think there is any reason for us to discuss Bible study together, because our techniques are too far apart. You pick Greek whenever you want to, but when you have a point to make you stick even with archaic English meanings if they support your doctrine. I cannot do Bible study that way, and cannot have intelligent discussions on the Bible with those who do not understand the basic tools for doing Bible study. I'm sure you are a sincere believer, but we must agree to go our own separate ways.

God bless,
H.

 

[His_disciple3]

Then you should have no problem admitting that "might" may mean "to redeem" instead of "might redeem" or "might not redeem". Who knows? If unicorn means rhino instead of what the Hebrew dictionary says when it says it means "wild ox", maybe, just maybe, the real meaning of the Greek word for "might redeem" really means "to redeem." You have me convinced!

But trust me on this one, a rhino probably doesn't smell as sweet as a unicorn.

I gather from these conversations that you don't want to admit you are wrong on this word regarding "to redeem." Ok, we can agree to disagree.

For my part, I don't think there is any reason for us to discuss Bible study together, because our techniques are too far apart. You pick Greek whenever you want to, but when you have a point to make you stick even with archaic English meanings if they support your doctrine. I cannot do Bible study that way, and cannot have intelligent discussions on the Bible with those who do not understand the basic tools for doing Bible study. I'm sure you are a sincere believer, but we must agree to go our own separate ways.

God bless,
H.

as I have stated with others in here it is not about you it is not about me, But
what don't you understand about the Bible lines up with itself there is no contradictions, If John said and Meant the World of the Elect in John 3:16 Then he would not have said the WHOLE WORLD in 1 John 2: or in anyother place of the Bible will we find that all when it comes to redeemimg or salvation it will mean that He died that SOME MIGHT BE SAVED, so the KJB is not wrong by adding might but rather clears up the Gospel and shuts the door on another gospel of limited atonement to come in. if we establish that He died for the whole World by 1 John 2 then the Bible doesn't say that we can't add words or take away from the words. it says not to add to the words ( change their meaning or take from ( change there meaning) in translating from one language to another you sometimes have to add words such as in spanish it is call a brush for the Teeth but in english we call it a toothbrush, didn't change the meaning but cleared up waht was meant as the KJB translators did by adding might, as you claim they have! I also would like to say I that I have never had anyone ever claimed that they agree with me argue so much against me before, this is definitely a first for me! Thank you for the experience! of arguing with someone that is on my side! I THINK!!

 

[Skala]

I think the real question should be to what degree do we have free will? That we can decide which drug to take or what bank to rob, or which woman to chase or what carrier to seek or what our favorite flavor of ice cream is does not really answer the question fully imho.

This person hit the nail on the head. Well done!

 

[SoulBap6]

Free Will Baptist is a denomination of churches that share a common history, name, and an acceptance of the Arminian theology of free grace,

Predestination, in theology is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God. John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.[

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Election Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationOf or relating to the theology of Jacobus Arminius and his followers, who rejected the Calvinist doctrines of predestination and election and who believed that human free will is compatible with God's sovereignty.



Of or relating to the theology of Jacobus Arminius and his followers, who rejected the Calvinist doctrines of predestination and election and who believed that human free will is compatible with God's sovereignty.

Read more: Arminian: Definition from Answers.com

The doctrines are very close until these words come in to play Predestination and free will.

From all that I have read about subject, Man has come up with their personal interpretation, that some how mans idea of God sovernity is somehow up to them to determine what that sovernity is, I have always read that that God is Ominipresent, know all that goes on his sovernity is absolute, that neither predestrination or freewill applies to Man, whosoever leaves little doubt about predestination. Free will is a choice as human beings we make that Choice, to serve God or not. The idea of eternal security is not something, saved and then lost either you are saved or lost. It would not be called eternal security if that were the Case. There are many scriptures to prove that out. The issue is the doctrine and what people believe.
Election Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvationElection Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faithUnlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believeNatural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birthPrevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvationConditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvation

 

[Skala]

The above post should receive a gold medal and 1st place for being the most difficult to read post I've EVER seen on these forums.

 

[His_disciple3]

The above post should receive a gold medal and 1st place for being the most difficult to read post I've EVER seen on these forums.

I found it rather easy to read and understand, it's a shame it went over your head you might have learned something!

 

[WinBySurrender]

The above post should receive a gold medal and 1st place for being the most difficult to read post I've EVER seen on these forums.

You actually READ it???

 

[iLogos]

that's what happens when you copy and past from a web page, runs together, no breaks, looks terrible.

A brief summary and link to source works for me

 

[twin1954]

that's what happens when you copy and past from a web page, runs together, no breaks, looks terrible.

A brief summary and link to source works for me

Or you could just write your own thoughts and not depend on what someone who isn't even here says. I rarely, that is almost never, paste what someone else writes. I do it for 2 reasons: the person who said isn't here to defend it and I like to think for myself.

I am not picking on you btw I just used your post to sound off.

 

[DeaconDean]

Predestination, in theology is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God. John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.

Now here is the problem with people who just "copy and paste" without actually reading for themselves, what is taught.

Fact: John Calvin was not the first person to put forth the doctrine of eternal damnation and eternal salvation via "predestination".

For Augustine, grace is efficacious because God’s decree is efficacious and God’s decree is efficacious because God is a sovereign, efficacious God who does whatsoever He wills. Grace is also particular. God sovereignly decreed to reprobate some and choose others.12 Contrary to the Semi-Pelagians, Augustine taught that election and reprobation were not on the basis of foreseen faith or foreseen unbelief. The elect receive grace and the reprobate do not, and no other reason can be sought than the inscrutable will of God.

Augustine taught the election of the saints in Christ as members of His body: "As, therefore, that one man [Christ] was predestined to be our Head, so we being many are predestinated to be His members."13 Moreover, Augustine also taught reprobation:

[God] used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice he has predestined to punishment.14

[The human] race we have distributed into two parts, the one consisting of those who live according to man, the other of those who live according to God. And these we also mystically call the two cities, or the two communities of men, of which the one is predestined to reign eternally with God, and the other to suffer eternal punishment with the devil.15
​

12 Augustine followed what is now called the infralapsarian scheme.
13 Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints xiv:31, trans. Peter Holmes and Robert Earnest Wallis, in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series, ed. Philip Schaff, vol. 5 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, repr. 1983), p. 513.
14 Augustine, Enchiridion c, p. 269. In the two previous chapters, Augustine speaks of God’s hatred—which he does not understand as "loving less"—of Esau and His hardening of the lost (Enchiridion xcviii-xcix, pp. 268-269). Thus Richard A. Muller wrongly denies that the Enchiridion teaches reprobation ("Reformation, Augustinianism in," in Augustine through the Ages: An Encyclopedia, ed. Allan D. Fitzgerald [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999], p. 706).
15 Augustine, The City of God xv:1, p. 284; italics mine.

Augustine and Sovereign Grace

Augustine put forth these exact same doctrines some 1000 years before Calvin.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hupomone10]

I have never had anyone ever claimed that they agree with me argue so much against me before, this is definitely a first for me! Thank you for the experience! of arguing with someone that is on my side! I THINK!!

Our disagreement is over your interpretation of Titus 2:14 and the meaning of the word the KJV translates as "might redeem." Nothing more. It is over your use of the KJV alone as a Bible study reference and then backing it up with Webster's dictionary.

We both believe Christ died for the world. If you don't see that as agreement, then it would seem that you see disagreements where there are none.

p.s. - when God said don't add to or take away from His words, the KJV hadn't yet been made.

 

[His_disciple3]

Or you could just write your own thoughts and not depend on what someone who isn't even here says. I rarely, that is almost never, paste what someone else writes. I do it for 2 reasons: the person who said isn't here to defend it and I like to think for myself.

I am not picking on you btw I just used your post to sound off.

so all your thoughts are orginal thoughts and not based on what someone else has said, for they wouldn't be here to defend what they are saying, so is John calvin here to defend what he has said, if it is your orginal thought this then we need a new thread "free-will or twin1954 which is the true bibical doctrine" you are casting stones for the same thing you are guilty of, I am not picking on you just sounding off!

 

[His_disciple3]

Our disagreement is over your interpretation of Titus 2:14 and the meaning of the word the KJV translates as "might redeem." Nothing more. It is over your use of the KJV alone as a Bible study reference and then backing it up with Webster's dictionary.

We both believe Christ died for the world. If you don't see that as agreement, then it would seem that you see disagreements where there are none.

p.s. - when God said don't add to or take away from His words, the KJV hadn't yet been made.

you say I keep avoiding might in the greek what is your take on 1 John 2. you are stuck on titus 2 the same you accuse me of being stuck on the english translation?

 

[Hammster]

you say I keep avoiding might in the greek what is your take on 1 John 2. you are stuck on titus 2 the same you accuse me of being stuck on the english translation?

I say that you are avoiding the question I have asked for three days. I wonder why? And my question actually deals with 1 John 2:2.

 

[Hupomone10]

that all when it comes to redeemimg or salvation it will mean that He died that SOME MIGHT BE SAVED, so the KJB is not wrong by adding might but rather clears up the Gospel

You just took a giant leap by changing "that he might redeem us from all iniquity" to "He died that SOME MIGHT BE SAVED". You have changed God's Holy Word and added to it. The KJV doesn't say this.

By the rules you are trying to set up for me, you have just rewritten the Holy Word of God. If you want to change God's Holy Word so that it says SOME MIGHT BE SAVED instead of what it says, in your own words "I beg you if you want to continue to fight against the Holy Word of God in English please start another thread!"

So you can follow this and not miss a point, I'll split it into two...