Free Will or Predestination

[Robs07M6S]

I don't think you understand the thrust of my argument brother.

No I do understand it Skala, I just dont agree with it. If you guys really care to see how im coming to this conclusion then listen to the message I posted from Piper and please..........I dont want anyone telling me they have no time to listen to it as an excuse because it will not be accepted. If people can spend all day long on these forums then they can set aside 20minutes to hear this message to get a better understanding of why I teach so passionately against irresistable grace.

 

[Robs07M6S]

The Scriptures never present salvation as an offer they present it a a gift.

Thats true, yet that gift must be recieved.

 

[cimbk]

the bible teaches both are true, but standing on the side of only one is true and the other is false, is complete false doctrine.......which ever camp you align yourself with, your in error, the truth is both predestination and free will are both true at the same time.

 

[Skala]

Do people receive the gift by faith?

Yet faith, too, is a gift from God.

So if anyone receives the gift of salvation by faith, it's because God gave them the faith to do it.

You're still back at the conclusion: God chooses who is saved

Also, what in the world does a poorly worded sermon on the unpardonable sin have to do with election/predestination/the depravity of man/conversion?

Absolutely nothing.

 

[Skala]

the bible teaches both are true, but standing on the side of only one is true and the other is false, is complete false doctrine.......which ever camp you align yourself with, your in error, the truth is both predestination and free will are both true at the same time.

What does "Free will" mean?

 

[Robs07M6S]

Also, what in the world does a poorly worded sermon on the unpardonable sin have to do with election/predestination/the depravity of man/conversion?

Absolutely nothing.

Uhuh, and just like that without even listening you come to this conclusion. That is a cop out response Skala and that sermon has EVERTHING to do with election and predestination. Thats why I asked not to respond about it until you have listened to it.

If Piper was really a calvinist and believed in irresistable grace then he would have never preached the sermon that I linked, obviously though he was convicted enough to do so and im glad that he did.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Do people receive the gift by faith?

Yet faith, too, is a gift from God.

Yes by grace THROUGH faith. however yet again God warns not to miss or fail to obtain that grace either, again mans responsibility. See Heb 12:15

"See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many."

 

[Skala]

Uhuh, and just like that without even listening you come to this conclusion. That is a cop out response Skala and that sermon has EVERTHING to do with election and predestination. Thats why I asked not to respond about it until you have listened to it.

If Piper was really a calvinist and believed in irresistable grace then he would have never preached the sermon that I linked, obviously though he was convicted enough to do so and im glad that he did.

I've heard that sermon before as we've talked about this before Rob.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I've heard that sermon before as we've talked about this before Rob.

You have? then you shouldnt have a hard time understanding where im coming from and you also should see that Piper couldnt be a calvinist either.

 

[Skala]

Yes by grace THROUGH faith. however yet again God warns not to miss or fail to obtain that grace either, again mans responsibility. See Heb 12:15

"See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many."

The entire process of salvation, being saved by grace through faith, is the gift of God. That's what Eph 2:8-9 teaches.

You are trying to argue that everything except faith is the gift, and we, by (our own self-wrought) faith, "accept" the gift.

But that goes against Eph 2:8-9. It teaches that even our faith to accept Christ and be saved, is from God. The entire reality of being God's children is "the gift from God". Including our acceptance of it.

How does that fit into your theology?

Also, Piper is not the be all end all for Calvinism. He is not the standard that every other Calvinist must live up to. Just because he says this or that is irrelevant. At the end of the day it's the exegesis of the Bible that matters. Do you agree? I don't run off to other Arminians and quote them and them somehow expect you to conform to their teachings, do I? Why, then do you think it's a fair debate tactic? I do not run off to other people and quote them and link their sermons and then somehow think that what they say is binding and the final authority on the conversation. Why do you do it?

 

[Robs07M6S]

The entire process of salvation, being saved by grace through faith, is the gift of God. That's what Eph 2:8-9 teaches.

Skala, I am in agreement here and dont know why you think that im not. I never once claimed that a man is saved any other way!

You are trying to argue that everything except faith is the gift.

No im not, your the one arguing semantics.

But that goes against Eph 2:8-9. It teaches that even our faith to accept Christ and be saved, is from God. The entire reality of being God's children is "the gift from God". Including our acceptance of it.

How does that fit into your theology?

How does it fit into my theology or the Bibles theology. It isnt my theology, im showing you with scripture that both aspects of predestination and free will are compatible. Again see Heb 12:15 in contrast with Eph 2:8-9.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Also, Piper is not the be all end all for Calvinism. He is not the standard that every other Calvinist must live up to.

Skala, again my point is that no calvinist at all would have ever preached a sermon like that. Dont make this into something more than what im saying it is.

At the end of the day it's the exegesis of the Bible that matters. Do you agree?

Of course I agree with that but as much as your arguement goes against me listing to others such as Piper dont you think its a bit hypocritical to expect me to trust your exegesis of the scriptures?

 

[Skala]

Skala, again my point is that no calvinist at all would have ever preached a sermon like that. Dont make this into something more than what im saying it is.

Ok, congrats, you proved John Piper is not a Calvinist. What does that have to do with this conversation? nothing.

Rob, if "being saved by grace through faith" is all of God's doing, and is God's gift, does God give everyone this gift?

Obviously not, because not all men are "saved by grace through faith". God does not give this gift to everyone, only some. Are you in agreement with that?

How does it fit into my theology or the Bibles theology. It isnt my theology, im showing you with scripture that both aspects of predestination and free will are compatible. Again see Heb 12:15 in contrast with Eph 2:8-9.

One's theology is 'whatever he believes'.

Also what does "Free will" mean and how does Heb 12:15 supposedly prove it exists? All you're doing is tossing a verse out there, without even exegeting it providing arguments. Expecting me to be on the same page as you lol.

How come neither Matthew Henry or John Gill agree with your interpretation?

 

[Robs07M6S]

Ok, congrats, you proved John Piper is not a Calvinist. What does that have to do with this conversation? nothing.

If I didnt know any better it would seem I have struck a nerve.

Rob, if "being saved by grace through faith" is all of God's doing, and is God's gift, does God give everyone this gift?

What does that have to do with mans responsiblity of accepting the gift? Nothing.

God does not give this gift to everyone, only some. Are you in agreement with that?

God only gives the gift to those whom recieve it, obviously. John 1:12.

Also what does "Free will" mean

It doesnt mean what the calvinist thinks it means.

and how does Heb 12:15 supposedly prove it exists?

Hebrews 12:15 is to show that man is responsible for laying hold of Gods grace, something which is incompatible with irresistable grace.

All you're doing is tossing a verse out there, without even exegeting it providing arguments. Expecting me to be on the same page as you lol.

As if your not doing the very same thing? lol.

How come neither Matthew Henry or John Gill agree with your interpretation?

Oh but they are just fallible men such as John Piper right? so who says that I should listen to them anyway.

 

[Hammster]

I tell you what, Im gonna post these links from John Piper one last time and show how he himself cannot really claim to be a calvinist because this teaching from him goes against Irresistable grace and plainly shows that God calls and then Leaves man with the responsibility to respond to that call. Please do not make any comments to this post until you at least listen to this 20 minute sermon for yourself. If you dont do anything else then at least listen to the 2nd part, it is less than 10 minutes long and Piper does a great job at showing the role that the Holy Spirit plays in conversion and then he goes on to show how this work can be resisted and thwarted.

The Unforgivable Sin, Part 1 of 2- John Piper - YouTube

The Unforgivable Sin, Part 2 of 2 - John Piper - YouTube

I listened to both. He isn't saying what you think he's saying. But I understand you're confusion about it. This is the problem with listening to a snippet of one message. He has a 9 part series on TULIP that you might find helpful.

 

[Hammster]

Thats true, yet that gift must be recieved.

Is the same true about wages?

 

[Robs07M6S]

I listened to both. He isn't saying what you think he's saying. But I understand you're confusion about it.

Thank you, thats all I wanted to know was if I was right in my thinking or if I was simply confused by what he is saying. Do you mind explaining to me Hammster what your getting from this sermon? I mean to me he makes it sound pretty clear that the work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted and trampled with until the point is finally reached that the Holy Spirit ceases to work in that particular persons life which would certainly go against irresistable grace.

This is the problem with listening to a snippet of one message.

Its actually the whole sermon, I have a link to the written part of this same sermon from desiringgod.org.

He has a 9 part series on TULIP that you might find helpful.

Thanks, I will look into it.

 

[Hammster]

Thank you, thats all I wanted to know was if I was right in my thinking or if I was simply confused by what he is saying. Do you mind explaining to me Hammster what your getting from this sermon?

Its actually the whole sermon, I have a link to the written part of this same sermon from desiringgod.org.

Thanks, I will look into it.

In a nutshell, the Holy Spirit does convict of sin. But unless one has a changed heart, they will resist.

 

[Robs07M6S]

In a nutshell, the Holy Spirit does convict of sin. But unless one has a changed heart, they will resist.

But I thought the Holy Spirit only worked in the elect?

 

[Hammster]

But I thought the Holy Spirit only worked in the elect?

He only changes the heart of the elect.