reformed ttL
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you can count me in that belief as well,Amen bro, but I know my own sinfulness enough to know that if God had not worked in my heart, I would have never responded to his call.
Let it be known of me that my personal belief is that, apart from effectual grace, I would end up in hell.
Now, if other Christians think of themselves better than that, then that's fine. But I know for a fact that without effectual grace/irresistible grace, I'd end up in hell.
Amen bro, but I know my own sinfulness enough to know that if God had not worked in my heart, I would have never responded to his call.
Right, and I agree with that skala. But im not sure that I agree that you couldnt have made the choice to turn away and harden your heart. Maybe im wrong? I really dont know, this is another hard to understand topic.
Hence my personal absolute necessity for irresistible grace.
Without it, I'm 100% sure I'd end up in hell.
I appreciate your attitude here brother. I too used to feel the same way. However I also came to believe that the issue is important enough to persue.
What really settled it in my mind was the doctrine of sin. If men are truly as wicked, evil, and rebellious as the Bible makes them out to be, if men are truly not seeking God and find the gospel foolishness, as the Bible says, then it makes sense that the only way men can be saved is if God comes down, intervenes, and saves them.
If he simply offered a choice, then sat back and did nothing, nobody would ever be saved. But instead, the Bible describes salvation as God pursuing us. He actively stepped in to save us. He elected us, predestined us, made sure we heard the gospel in our lives, brought us to Christ, brought us to faith and repentance, changed our hearts, took off our blindfolds, spiritually resurrected us.
To me, God's activity in salvation is what makes election and predestination true. If I believed he just sat back and did absolutely nothing to save anybody, I would have no hope that anyone would ever be saved.
So I truly believe if someone takes seriously the doctrine of sin, they will inevitably have to concede and say "Salvation is truly by free grace".
Hence my personal absolute necessity for irresistible grace.
Without it, I'm 100% sure I'd end up in hell.
Not sure on this ether because the scriptures speak of an apostasy, turning away, a sin that leads to death, and *believers* are warned about it.
I think it's possible otherwise why did God allow Satan to tempt Job? Would have been a waste of time if we have "irresistible grace". Why let Satan kill off Job's family to see if he would curse God?
Sorry, don't see enough scripture to support this view
Not sure on this ether because the scriptures speak of an apostasy, turning away, a sin that leads to death, and *believers* are warned about it.
Indeed but John tells us that if anyone turns away, they were never true believers to begin with. They were simply tares among the wheat. Etc. That being said, that's a totally different topic than what "irresistible grace" aim to teach.
If you need scripture, check this article, it is full of scripture that supports the view brother:
Irresistible Grace - is it biblical?
A common misconception about the doctrine of irresistible grace is that it implies men are forced to accept Christ and men are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. Of course neither of these are accurate descriptions of the doctrine of irresistible grace as revealed in the Bible. In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ.
Another misconception concerning this doctrine is that it teaches the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted at all. Yet again that is not what the doctrine teaches because that is not what the Bible teaches. God’s grace can be resisted and the Holy Spirit’s influence can be resisted even by one of the elect. However what the doctrine does correctly recognize is that the Holy Spirit can overcome all such resistance and that He will draw the elect with an irresistible grace that makes them want to come to God and helps them to understand the Gospel so they can and will believe it.
The doctrine of irresistible grace simply recognizes that the Bible teaches God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills to.
Indeed but John tells us that if anyone turns away, they were never true believers to begin with.
I agree here but it still begs the question as to rather irresistable grace is Biblical or not because in either case we see those "especially in the book of Hebrews" who are right on the edge of salvation and then turn and crucify Christ and trample him under their feet.
John Mcarther stated that those in Hebrews 6:4-6 are the ones that are standing on the edge of a cliff "so to say" and if they do not press on towards complete faith in Christ then they are bound to go over the side of the cliff that leads to apostasy.
If it was irresistible, why would there be a need to warn *believers* of falling away?
I agree here but it still begs the question as to rather irresistable grace is Biblical or not because in either case we see those "especially in the book of Hebrews" who are right on the edge of salvation and then turn and crucify Christ and trample him under their feet.
John Mcarther stated that those in Hebrews 6:4-6 are the ones that are standing on the edge of a cliff "so to say" and if they do not press on towards complete faith in Christ then they are bound to go over the side of the cliff that leads to apostasy.
[We disagree with those...]Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.
For this does away with all effective functioning of God's grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to the will of man; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe by virtue of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph. 1:19), and that God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).
In responding to the idea of resistible grace (that God cannot convert and effectively save with 100% success rate all by himself), the synod of dordt said:
Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.
Im horribly confused now, so you agree with this that you posted? that man can thwart his own salvation?
I think you misunderstand, and I thought I edited my post fast enough, but if you look, that first paragraph is what the synod disagreed with.
Skala said:Let me answer by asking you a serious question:
Can a dead man thwart being resurrected?
In responding to the idea of resistible grace (that God cannot convert and effectively save with 100% success rate all by himself), the synod of dordt said:
[We disagree with those...]Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.
For this does away with all effective functioning of God's grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to the will of man; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe by virtue of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph. 1:19), and that God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).
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