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Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by 3 Resurrections, Aug 23, 2021.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think that is true, but kind, for our sakes and to steer our purpose. "Missing the mark" is in fact, cosmic treason.

    Agreed. Of course he does. In fact, I have reason to say that God intended that sin be. He predestined that it be.

    But the rest of what you reason, to me, is mere reasoning. It doesn't prove God created sin. Does God create our decisions? No, he causes them.
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You're welcome. . .free agency is the philosophical term. I think by agency is meant the power to choose and execute.
    I use the term limited free will, and for a quick explanation, use sinlessness as an example of what limitation of choice would be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  3. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    This definition doesn't quite sum it up,

    But Scripture itself actually does tell us what sin is, not just a definition of a Greek word.

    1Jn_3:4
    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
    for sin is the transgression of the law.

    To me, (missing the mark) is kind of nebulous, but understanding that sin is the actual transgression of the Law, that really brings it home for me, I am therefore better able to apply that understanding directly to myself and better able to understand just what I was guilty of that was forgiven and for what Christ died.

     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Since you see it as not endless, do you also think that there is a purpose for it? Corrective rather than punitive?
     
  5. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear Mark,
    Since scripture clearly says that God created mankind, He created our minds, too. Then within our minds, He causes our thoughts, beliefs and decisions. All things are of God and from God. Is this statement more to your liking?

    Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

    Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

    Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

    Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

    Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Joe
     
  6. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    We like to blame satan, God, bad luck and/or Adam & Eve for our sins, but satan does tempt us to do what we are wanting already to do. Eve was lusting / coveting the fruit already. satan 's lies did not cause her to sin, but did help her along in what she was wanting already to do. Lusting, coveting and selfishness at the time were not sins, but resulted in her sinning.
    People do not have to be "naive" to sin.
     
  7. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear Jiminz,
    1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    If we are "in Christ", we are no longer under the Law and therefore, the Law can no longer accuse us.

    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    Here is Christ's teaching of when we come out from under the Law:

    John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

    Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

    In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts.

    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

    When Christ first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

    Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law of the Spirit upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law of Sin and Death can no longer accuse us. After this change from religion (man’s works) to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law of Sin and Death is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

    Joe
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I did not say, "not endless", which implies there is an end to it. I said timeless. No end, no beginning, just the fact of it. And no, as I understand scripture, it is definitely punitive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
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  9. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    You make it sound as though Eve walked around all the time trying to figure out a way to eat the fruit, when she didn't think anything of the sort until the serpent mentioned it.

    Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman,
    Ye shall not surely die:

    Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
    then your eyes shall be opened,
    and ye shall be as gods,
    knowing good and evil.

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
    and that it was pleasant to the eyes,
    and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
    she took of the fruit thereof,
    and did eat,

    and gave also unto her husband with her;
    and he did eat.

    Your whole narrative and reasoning are flawed.
     
  10. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, much better. He causes by many other means, too, by influences from all directions, environmental, genetic, upbringing, habit and so on. All the things that apply, that others deem natural, as if God had no part in it, are his too.
     
  11. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Not disputing this at all, Bruce. That very dependence upon our Creator, I believe, is the lesson God intended to teach all humanity by showing us how dangerous having the option of choosing good or evil can be when entrusted to any created being.

    Free will (or "free agency", as clare73 probably terms it better) is not all that and a bag of chips. It has proved to be the gateway for untold misery of humankind. Like giving a loaded Glock to a five year old. Only God can manage that much "firepower" flawlessly and responsibly. In the final judgment, I believe this will be abundantly clear to all.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So "timeless" punishment with no purpose whatsoever? How is that not cruelty?

    Saint Steven said:
    Since you see it as not endless, do you also think that there is a purpose for it? Corrective rather than punitive?
     
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No purpose? Where did you get that? What do you think justice is?
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Shouldn't justice be fair? You say "timeless" but say it isn't endless. What is fair about endless punishment for a temporal "crime"?

    Saint Steven said:
    So "timeless" punishment with no purpose whatsoever? How is that not cruelty?

    Saint Steven said:
    Since you see it as not endless, do you also think that there is a purpose for it? Corrective rather than punitive?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I was never talking about God loving us out of a gratitude type Love.

    God Loves us in spite of what we have done, are doing or will do. Loving us is extremely hard takes commitment, and took an extreme sacrifice on God’s part, so God Loves us by His own choice and really because that is who God is (Love).

    We should be as grateful to God as we can be, since there is no more, He can give us and thus we have it all.

    My idea of using “gratitude” is in contrast to: Loving because we are commanded to Love (which does not work), Loving to get further rewards (there are none), Loving because God is a wonderful just, fair parent (which He is, but much more), or Loving God like a friend (doing stuff for each other).

    God’s Love is pure undeserved charity (not needing anything in return).



    I would say they are not in heaven because they would not be happy after refusing God’s Love (charity, forgiveness, mercy, grace) here on earth and certainly not God’s fault.


    Without going into a lengthy explanation at this time, the second son represents the Teachers of the Law and Pharisees (Jesus is addressing them) so Jesus allows them to decide in their own mind after the father’s plead: “Will they join the feast or not”, the question is left unanswered. The prodigal son could stand for the gentiles also or just sinners.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    And my response is "gratitude" ranks right up there with God's "unselfishnes."
    It is man's idea of righteousness, and falls pitiably short of God's idea.
    The Teachers of the Law and the Pharisess would be the Christ-murderers (Acts 7:52), who if they came to their senses and repented, the Father would forgive their atrocious crime of murdering his one and only begotten Son.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, that is right. One thing I have to give philosophers —generally they try their best to be honest and accurate, at least in their descriptions and terms, definitions. Surprisingly, 'accurate' usually has to come to 'concise', because otherwise too much specificity in accuracy takes us off course. They have to use words that don't mislead. 'Agency' isn't just a fancy word. It means something.
     
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn't say 'endless' which indicates time passage. Everything I tried to say was to point at timelessness. Sorry if I didn't get that across.

    But anyway, yes, for what it is worth, if it is indeed eternal time passing in hell, it will be without end, according to all the Scriptures I can find dealing with the subject. And yes, that sounds worse to me, but still, I can depend on the logical and scriptural fact that God will not be unjust. And LOVE depends on justice. God's justice is no less a part of him than his love. We don't get to ignore parts of Scripture, or re-invent them, to make them fit our notion of love.

    Sin is cosmic treason, it is a horror that would have "ripped the fabric of reality" were it not for the power of God. God will not gloss it over.
     
  19. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hmm maybe that is why modern man is from seth.

    Genesis 5
    3 When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son in his own likeness, after his own image; and he named him Seth.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Justice as punishment (revenge) is not love at all. Love is forgiveness. God even requires us to love our enemies, which means to forgive them. Then he turns around and incinerates his enemies? Sorry, that logic doesn't work.
     
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