Free will and determinism

[Jo555]

Oh, what to do? WHAT TO DO?

I've broken the riddle, I choose both.

Ha! Take that!

Who left a window cracked open?

 

[Jo555]

Tell me I didn't come overdressed for the occasion. Did I?

 

[Fervent]

It's because you chose it. Nobody else did. And you had options. It's the options that have been determined. You simply chose the one that you prefered. Was that stealing my wallet? If it was then you're the type of guy who would do that. We need that to change because you might do it again. So you'll be punished to an extent that convinces you not to do it again. Hopefully you'll realise the harm caused and empathise with me and therefore decide not repeat the act. Either way,

Except the experience of choice is an illusion, otherwise determinism is false. So what is special about human beings that makes them responsible, and natural disasters not responsible?

And you can hold someone responsible for something without blaming them for it. A few weeks ago I noticed a large vase that I'd bought in a second hand shop and spent no little time filling in cracks, sanding itdown and repainting it was missing. Turned out that my grandson had knocked it over and it's now in two pieces. The boy was at our house on the weekend and I showed him the pieces and asked if he knew who was responsible. Looking sheepish he admitted that it was him. Hey, no worries I said. It was an accident. I'm not blaming you. You can help me repair it. So now he's looking forward to doing that and doesn't feel guilty about breaking it.

So no blame because it was an accident. And if the guy who steals your wallet does it because of his atrocious upbringing, then that's an accident of birth. You can hold him responsible but do you want to blame him? My guess is that yes, you do. Because hey, he has free will! In which case the concept of mitigating circumstances doesn't exist.

All of this is rather irrelevant to the key issue, which is the question of what the difference-maker is between instruments of harm and human beings?

 

[Bradskii]

Except the experience of choice is an illusion, otherwise determinism is false. So what is special about human beings that makes them responsible, and natural disasters not responsible?

The earthquake doesn't have options.

All of this is rather irrelevant to the key issue, which is the question of what the difference-maker is between instruments of harm and human beings?

See above.

 

[Fervent]

The earthquake doesn't have options.

If determinism is true, neither do we. Just an illusion of options. Or do you now believe we have the power to do otherwise?

See above.

How does an illusion of options make one responsible for their choices?

 

[Bradskii]

If determinism is true, neither do we. Just an illusion of options. Or do you now believe we have the power to do otherwise?

How does an illusion of options make one responsible for their choices?

Options are real. Obviously. You can choose whether to respond to this post (A), or not (B).

Are you going to choose A or B? You're the one making the choice so it's your responsibility whichever one it is.

 

[Fervent]

Options are real. Obviously. You can choose whether to respond to this post (A), or not (B).

So you deny causal determinism, then?

Are you going to choose A or B? You're the one making the choice so it's your responsibility whichever one it is.

Oh? So then my decision is not fully determined by antecedent conditions? My choice is not the inevitable result of an unbroken chain of cause and effect relationships?

 

[Bradskii]

So you deny causal determinism, then?

Mmm. Let me think...

Oh? So then my decision is not fully determined by antecedent conditions? My choice is not the inevitable result of an unbroken chain of cause and effect relationships?

Yes. But because of that you are not to blame. But you are responsible. Just like my grandson.

 

[Fervent]

Mmm. Let me think...

Ah, still trying to have it both ways. There are no options if determinism is true, only the illusion of options because of a lack of knowledge.

Yes. But because of that you are not to blame. But you are responsible. Just like my grandson.

How do imaginary options that can never be realized render me responsible? Is the water that floods a town responsible for the destruction it causes because there are multiple paths that appear open for it to follow prior to it going down the path it goes down? How do impossible to choose options render a human being responsible?

 

[Bradskii]

How do imaginary options that can never be realized render me responsible?

They can't be imaginary. You had two actual options a few minutes ago. A or B. Who was responsible for choosing A?

I'll guess that it was...you. Please confirm.

 

[Neogaia777]

I can't believe this thread is still going, but, yes, if the theory of absolute determinism holds true (which I think it does, and it is what I believe to be true, etc) but putting that aisde for the moment, and why I believe that for the moment, let's just talk about if it is true, or if it does hold true, etc.

If it does, then there is no such thing as choice for anything or anyone ever, etc, and everything is quote/unquote "caused" going all the way back to whatever and whenever was the very first original "uncaused cause", etc, and this that all this material in the universe is playing out/living (supposedly) is/always was/will always be only one possiblity, etc, and it's the possiblity that we are all right now locked into, and are unable to change it, etc, and there are never any other such things as other possibilities or outcomes that could/can have ever, ever happened or come about ever either, etc. And technically, no one and nothing is ever responsible for any of it's actions, or quote/unquote "choices", etc, but in this reality we still must hold them accountable in order to maintain order, etc, and we leave their very final and eternal judgement for the next life, etc, as well as our own, etc. Another reason we do this is because we do not know whether or not we are supposed to or not, as a part of that determinism or not either, etc, and if we are maybe supposed to do it in order to try to correct/change anothers actions or not, etc, but if we are supposed to, and it does, etc, then it was only because it was always meant to/supposed to, and couldn't have gone any other way, etc. It's only our not knowing all the intricate details that gives us the illusion that we are the ones doing any of this, etc, when in relaity it all was already predetermined by maybe another entity a very, very, long, long time ago already, etc, and no matter what we do or quote/unquote "choose" we are only doing what was already decided/predetermined/known/caused by maybe another entity a very long time ago regardless, and it cannot ever go or happen any other way, etc, not in this universe anyway, etc.

Anyway, that's enough for now.

God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

but how can we be responsible for out choices if we have no choice but to choose what we've been determined to choose? You may assert that a lack of free will is compatible with personal responsibility,

People often wonder how I can forgive those who are cruel, and yet still condone punishing them... because the goal isn't really to punish, the goal is to teach, and failing that the goal is to protect. While it's true that we as a society don't do those two things very well, that's on us. We're not perfect. We should try to do better.

Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God... I seem to recall reading those words somewhere... perhaps they're important.

 

[Fervent]

They can't be imaginary. You had two actual options a few minutes ago. A or B. Who was responsible for choosing A?

If determinism is true, I didn't have two options. I simply was unaware of what the outcome would be, so it appeared that there were multiple options. So is determinism true, or did I have actual options open to me to decide between? Can't be both. So which is it?

I'll guess that it was...you. Please confirm.

If I have free will, it was me. If I don't have free will, then there is no responsible party just physics. Or if God is the "first cause" in a deterministic causal chain that led to my action then God is the responsible party. So do I have free will and am therefore responsible for my choices, or is my experience of free will an illusion created simply because my knowledge is imperfect and therefore no one(or God) is responsible?

 

[Bradskii]

If determinism is true, I didn't have two options. I simply was unaware of what the outcome would be, so it appeared that there were multiple options. So is determinism true, or did I have actual options open to me to decide between? Can't be both. So which is it?

If I have free will, it was me. If I don't have free will, then there is no responsible party just physics. Or if God is the "first cause" in a deterministic causal chain that led to my action then God is the responsible party. So do I have free will and am therefore responsible for my choices, or is my experience of free will an illusion created simply because my knowledge is imperfect and therefore no one(or God) is responsible?

I think that you need to give yourself a break. You keep repeating the same things again and again. All you're adding to the thread is the post count.

 

[Neogaia777]

Oh, and just so you all know, "God is responsible" is not going to get anyone off the hook on judgement day, etc.

If you want to know why, then ask me, etc.

To summarize it in that or those cases, then it will be either you were either a good vessel made for a good purpose that will continue to have/serve a good purpose, or you were a bad vessel created for a bad purpose, but that no longer serves a bad or good purpose, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Fervent]

I think that you need to give yourself a break. You keep repeating the same things again and again. All you're adding to the thread is the post count.

I wouldn't need to repeat them if you would provide some sort of reply, rather than just continuing with your initial assertions as if asserting it makes it true. You can't have it both ways, either determinism is true and there are no options only ignorance of the outcome, or we have a free will to choose between limited options. So which is it, will you have your cake or will you eat it? Can't do both.

 

[Bradskii]

I wouldn't need to repeat them if you would provide some sort of reply, rather than just continuing with your initial assertions as if asserting it makes it true. You can't have it both ways, either determinism is true and there are no options only ignorance of the outcome, or we have a free will to choose between limited options. So which is it, will you have your cake or will you eat it? Can't do both.

If you are going to continue making the same old points and asking the same old questions again and again, then I'm going to have to give myself a break from this.

 

[Fervent]

If you are going to continue making the same old points and asking the same old questions again and again, then I'm going to have to give myself a break from this.

No skin off my back, but we could move onto other points and questions if you would provide some sort of reply rather than just plodding along repeating your assertion and circular argument. The only thing holding this discussion in the same place is your unwillingness to make any kind of actual reply to my objections.

 

[CoreyD]

No skin off my back, but we could move onto other points and questions if you would provide some sort of reply rather than just plodding along repeating your assertion and circular argument. The only thing holding this discussion in the same place is your unwillingness to make any kind of actual reply to my objections.

I've seen cornered rats before, and when there is no hole to run for, they are dead meat.
Google seems to hide all the images people upload of this, and unfortunately, I don't have any, but this is a nice image that shows where we are at the moment.

Good job.

 

[CoreyD]

If determinism is true, I didn't have two options. I simply was unaware of what the outcome would be, so it appeared that there were multiple options. So is determinism true, or did I have actual options open to me to decide between? Can't be both. So which is it?

Interestingly, the OP says freewill is an illusion, based on this fact, so it's odd the poster is not agreeing with you. Well, not odd, but interesting.

If I have free will, it was me. If I don't have free will, then there is no responsible party just physics. Or if God is the "first cause" in a deterministic causal chain that led to my action then God is the responsible party. So do I have free will and am therefore responsible for my choices, or is my experience of free will an illusion created simply because my knowledge is imperfect and therefore no one(or God) is responsible?

I really enjoyed watching the barrage of "punches" delivered there.
I think you struck some "vital organs", from which there really is no recovery.