Free will and determinism

[Jo555]

Hi. Passing through again.

On a more serious note, yes i can do serious, wanted to say that if my joking is offensive to anyone, do speak up. No problema.

I sometimes live in this delusional bubble where i think I'm funny and everyone else thinks so...a happy place.

I think lightening the mood can help with these conversations too as they can get heated, and it's also fun, but if not really fun for anyone do bring me down to reality and let me know. Go ahead, pop the bubble.

I really don't have much more to share on this topic as i feel I have made my position clear and need to move on, but still having fun and trying to spread it around. I mean what is the point if it doesn't lead us to somewhere nice.

I still have other unconquered territory to reach, so no worries on communicating if it isn't appreciated and / or offensive.

Laughter is not a part of my.being like my faith. It is a choice I make because I prefer it over the usual. I can choose to deny it out of love for my fellowman and consideration for his feelings. If that doesn't fit into the OP, I don't know what does.

Gracias!

I'm off.

 

[Jo555]

Does anyone else get this erry feeling, or is it just me?

 

[Jo555]

You know Bradskii, this one is going to require a spectacular send off. My vote is on this one.

When in Rome ...
Do it like the Italians do.

 

[partinobodycular]

But because of that you are not to blame. But you are responsible.

You're absolutely right about blame and responsibility, but I'm not so certain that you're right about will. For there are things that I fervently desire not to do, and there are people that I fervently desire not to disappoint. Such that when I do, I not only feel responsibility, but I do indeed feel blame. And I don't care what some determinist says... "I" willed not to do them. Me, not some DNA, and not some traumatic event sixty years ago... I did. I may be the product of them... but I'm not them. I'm more than that. Or at least I hope I am.

So I guess the question is, what do we mean by free will? What is it free from? Is it free from a chain of causes, or is it free from being 'only' a chain of causes?

Weird though, how I find it so easy not to blame you, yet I find it so much harder not to blame me. If that ain't free will, it darn sure feels like it.

If there's a God, hopefully He feels that way... that we're responsible, but we're not to blame.

I'm pretty sure He does.

But I'm still thinking about it... work in progress.

 

[Jo555]

You're absolutely right about blame and responsibility, but I'm not so certain that you're right about will. For there are things that I fervently desire not to do, and there are people that I fervently desire not to disappoint. Such that when I do, I not only feel responsibility, but I do indeed feel blame. And I don't care what some determinist says... "I" willed not to do them. Me, not some DNA, and not some traumatic event sixty years ago... I did. I may be the product of them... but I'm not them. I'm more than that. Or at least I hope I am.

So I guess the question is, what do we mean by free will? What is it free from? Is it free from a chain of causes, or is it free from being 'only' a chain of causes?

Weird though, how I find it so easy not to blame you, yet I find it so much harder not to blame me. If that ain't free will, it darn sure feels like it.

If there's a God, hopefully He feels that way... that we're responsible, but we're not to blame.

I'm pretty sure He does.

But I'm still thinking about it... work in progress.

I think I may be of assistance.

You know I watched that video Religulous some time ago. I hesitated because i was already so sick and tired of the critical spirit I had been witnessing, even amongst my people, and was already dealing with ill feelings from it.

Not that I'm exempt myself from slipping into that, just saying.

Yet I was curious and decided I would guard my heart against bitterness and watch.

First, although I saw flaws and an emphasis the negative (There has been more atrocities done apart from religion imo), i was grateful it was not as bad, on the critical note, than I had expected.

There was one really great piece of information offered in the video by a muslim woman that i thought was so on target and they appeared to quickly cut away from that. I can't say it was intentional or just in the normal process of editing.

But anyway, Bill was drilling her about things he saw with her religion, or at least questing them, and she'd explain and he'd immediately bring up another point. This went on about 3 or 4 times and she eventually said something so true and profound that i thought it was a shame they cut away right after

She said, somewhat grieved by his method, "You cannot understand the overall message and concept by pieces here and there. You have to see it within the larger picture."

That was the best message i heard in that whole documentary because it is so true and it pertains to much in life, if not all.

There is a good amount of meat in scripture along with much sweets, but you can't understand either properly unless you see it within the larger picture of God's love and the larger picture of what He is doing.

Had the good Lord remind me of this yesterday when i wanted to share meat with someone who seemed quite clueless of some basic principles of predestination and "not being able to do anything without God." Felt like the Lord was telling me, step back. You are out of line. Don't shove meat down her throat, she isn't ready for it and will choke on it.

So, I did just that, and just mentioned a book in bible she can prayerfully study with the Lord and He can enlighten as He sees fit.

She has to really get a good grasp / revelation of his love on her life before she can truly handle meat, and she appears to be missing that.

 

[Jo555]

I think I may be of assistance.

You know I watched that video Religulous some time ago. I hesitated because i was already so sick and tired of the critical spirit I had been witnessing, even amongst my people, and was already dealing with ill feelings from it.

Not that I'm exempt myself from slipping into that, just saying.

Yet I was curious and decided I would guard my heart against bitterness and watch.

First, although I saw flaws and an emphasis the negative (There has been more atrocities done apart from religion imo), i was grateful it was not as bad, on the critical note, than I had expected.

There was one really great piece of information offered in the video by a muslim woman that i thought was so on target and they appeared to quickly cut away from that. I can't say it was intentional or just in the normal process of editing.

But anyway, Bill was drilling her about things he saw with her religion, or at least questing them, and she'd explain and he'd immediately bring up another point. This went on about 3 or 4 times and she eventually said something so true and profound that i thought it was a shame they cut away right after

She said, somewhat grieved by his method, "You cannot understand the overall message and concept by pieces here and there. You have to see it within the larger picture."

That was the best message i heard in that whole documentary because it is so true and it pertains to much in life, if not all.

There is a good amount of meat in scripture along with much sweets, but you can't understand either properly unless you see it within the larger picture of God's love and the larger picture of what He is doing.

Had the good Lord remind me of this yesterday when i wanted to share meat with someone who seemed quite clueless of some basic principles of predestination and "not being able to do anything without God." Felt like the Lord was telling me, step back. You are out of line. Don't shove meat down her throat, she isn't ready for it and will choke on it.

So, I did just that, and just mentioned a book in bible she can prayerfully study with the Lord and He can enlighten as He sees fit.

She has to really get a good grasp / revelation of his love on her life before she can truly handle meat, and she appears to be missing that.

I saw her as proud against God in her thinking and it didn't help that she seemed to be goading me, not tha i would know anything about that, but don't we all think we know it all in our immaturity.

I always go back to the basics of my faith. Love must be driving me. There are other things always trying to take the driver's seat and if it is not foremost, God's love, I'm out of line.

 

[Jo555]

I saw her as proud against God in her thinking and it didn't help that she seemed to be goading me, not tha i would know anything about that, but don't we all think we know it all in our immaturity.

I always go back to the basics of my faith. Love must be driving me. There are other things always trying to take the driver's seat and if it is not foremost, God's love, I'm out of line.

Should add to my people, though zi may be preaching to the choir, but in case.

It isn't that we don't hold onto what we know and let Him reveal it within our inner being in the context of who He is, but as scripture says, we see in part ... We need to remain open to how He may enlighten us in areas not yet revealed by Him, and all things will pass but the indestructible; to only what will remain, faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.

 

[Bradskii]

You're absolutely right about blame and responsibility, but I'm not so certain that you're right about will. For there are things that I fervently desire not to do, and there are people that I fervently desire not to disappoint. Such that when I do, I not only feel responsibility, but I do indeed feel blame.

You are meant to go out for dinner with your wife. But you think you'll have a couple of drinks with the boys in the office first. Well, you know what happens. What's easier for you when you get home? She's angry, you try to justify what you did, you apologise, there's raised voices, there's an example you bring up when she let you down. It's all quite unpleasant. But you put it down to just one of those things that happen.

But...you did what you preferred to do at the time. The booze was obviously an 'antecedent condition' (we've all been there...). So let's say that when you get home there's no angry wife. But you apologise. And she says 'It's OK. You're just the sort of person who lets people down now and then'.

Ouch! Now that would cut deep. In the first instance you'd mentally make excuses for yourself. And again, we've all been there. The little voice is saying 'hey, I wasn't that late. And it's not like I do it all the time. And I work hard, dammit. Can't a man have a couple of beers? And what about the time she didn't get home until late...' Sure, you were responsible. But you can't really be blamed.

But in the second instance she tells you the truth. You are the type of guy who has just let his wife down because he preferred to have a couple of drinks with the boys. You literally just did it. Can you be blamed for being who you are? Again, no. All the experiences, all the decisions you have made have made you that type of person. But you feel that you want to be be blamed. That's the tough part about it.

Seen 'Manchester By The Sea'?. Brilliant film. Casey Affleck is the father of 2. Gets a few guys around in the pool room one night. It's 2:00am. Drunk, raucous. His wife comes down and in no uncertain terms tells them to leave. He's still buzzing but the beers all gone. It's a 20 minute walk to the late night shop. He makes sure the fire is burning ok because it's bitterly cold. While he's gone, log rolls out, house burns down, children dead. He's at the police station. Two guys who know him are asking what happened. He tells them. Then they say hey, that's all. We're so sorry. If there's anything you need. And he's confused. 'I can go?' And they explain, you were responsible, but no-one is blaming you.

Spoiler alert: When be walks out of the interview room he grabs a cop's gun and tries to shoot himself in the head. He feels like he should be blamed. He wants to be punished. It's tough not to. Sometimes it's impossible.

And I don't care what some determinist says... "I" willed not to do them. Me, not some DNA, and not some traumatic event sixty years ago... I did. I may be the product of them... but I'm not them. I'm more than that. Or at least I hope I am.

I like to think so. I sometimes feel like Affleck. I want to feel sorry for myself because it was me that caused the pain. But you can change. You can change because you caused the pain and you don't want to do it again. You can change because you know that you've done wrong.

So I guess the question is, what do we mean by free will? What is it free from? Is it free from a chain of causes, or is it free from being 'only' a chain of causes?

Free from everything that has gone before.

Weird though, how I find it so easy not to blame you, yet I find it so much harder not to blame me. If that ain't free will, it darn sure feels like it.

Me too. Same problem here.

But I'm still thinking about it... work in progress.

Me too.

 

[Jo555]

I think I may be of assistance.

You know I watched that video Religulous some time ago. I hesitated because i was already so sick and tired of the critical spirit I had been witnessing, even amongst my people, and was already dealing with ill feelings from it.

Not that I'm exempt myself from slipping into that, just saying.

Yet I was curious and decided I would guard my heart against bitterness and watch.

First, although I saw flaws and an emphasis the negative (There has been more atrocities done apart from religion imo), i was grateful it was not as bad, on the critical note, than I had expected.

There was one really great piece of information offered in the video by a muslim woman that i thought was so on target and they appeared to quickly cut away from that. I can't say it was intentional or just in the normal process of editing.

But anyway, Bill was drilling her about things he saw with her religion, or at least questing them, and she'd explain and he'd immediately bring up another point. This went on about 3 or 4 times and she eventually said something so true and profound that i thought it was a shame they cut away right after

She said, somewhat grieved by his method, "You cannot understand the overall message and concept by pieces here and there. You have to see it within the larger picture."

That was the best message i heard in that whole documentary because it is so true and it pertains to much in life, if not all.

There is a good amount of meat in scripture along with much sweets, but you can't understand either properly unless you see it within the larger picture of God's love and the larger picture of what He is doing.

Had the good Lord remind me of this yesterday when i wanted to share meat with someone who seemed quite clueless of some basic principles of predestination and "not being able to do anything without God." Felt like the Lord was telling me, step back. You are out of line. Don't shove meat down her throat, she isn't ready for it and will choke on it.

So, I did just that, and just mentioned a book in bible she can prayerfully study with the Lord and He can enlighten as He sees fit.

She has to really get a good grasp / revelation of his love on her life before she can truly handle meat, and she appears to be missing that.

This is also what the apostle Paul addresses a couple times in the book of Romans when he goes on to expound on the larger picture.

He says, "Some will ask, then how can God blame me?"

As He says, that is merely a human point of view, and points to the larger picture.

I love the book of Romans. Such a masterpiece.

 

[Jo555]

This is also what the apostle Paul addresses a couple times in the book of Romans when he goes on to expound on the larger picture.

He says, "Some will ask, then how can God blame me?"

As He says, that is merely a human point of view, and points to the larger picture.

I love the book of Romans. Such a masterpiece.

So this concept raised in the OP does find itself in scripture, the part regarding our choices not free of of influences. I won't say I agree on all the finer details as there have been all things I didn't agree with, and just too much in here to read all of that, but the main concept.

And this has been a difficult thing for some to digest. It is apparent the apostle Paul was dealing with it too.

I personally don't have an issue with it because as I know scripture, all of God's creation are

 

[Jo555]

Sorry, hit post a little early.

To continue, all of God's creation are branches that need to find their home / root in Him, otherwise it is in a state of darkness and will wither and die.

And I just don't see that not being able to make a choice without an influence as taking away from the fact that you still have a choice, that you make, even if under influence.

If there is a hierarchy order of sin, or at least one where the rest spring from, i would say it is pride, which started in the garden, and is still around today, believing we can be like God apart from Him and I see in his larger plan Him working to help us see that. I believe that is one of the biggest part of his larger picture.

From a Christian perspective which I believe it is ok considering it is a Christian forum

 

[Jo555]

So this concept raised in the OP does find itself in scripture, the part regarding our choices not free of of influences. I won't say I agree on all the finer details as there have been all things I didn't agree with, and just too much in here to read all of that, but the main concept.

And this has been a difficult thing for some to digest. It is apparent the apostle Paul was dealing with it too.

I personally don't have an issue with it because as I know scripture, all of God's creation are

Want to clarify.

I should have said it has been a difficult thing for SOME to digest.

And Paul understood it well and didn't have an issue with it. I meant He was also dealing with those that had a difficult time with it

 

[Chesterton]

@Bradskii Does it concern you at all that people who agree with you in this thread tend to be people who talk to themselves?

 

[Jo555]

Time for some real truth.

God in the OT was not a fully omniscient, or all-knowing entity/being.

And Jesus, while maybe greater than Him, "maybe", was also not, first of all, also not omniscient, or all-knowing, but he knew, or figured out this though, etc, and also reasoned out that there was such a One who was always, always fully omniscient, or always all-knowing, etc, and actually built whole new theological ideas or concepts based on knowing this, or these, lines or reasoning, etc, and introduced them to us as new information, or new discoveries, etc, but the judgement is the same and has always been the same as it perhaps always was from the very beginning, and that is (see second quoted reply) "you were either a good vessel made for a good purpose that will continue to have/serve a good purpose, or you were a bad vessel created for a bad purpose, but that no longer serves a bad or good purpose, etc" and that has always been "it" from the beginning, and all else is "vanity", etc. Jesus might have known this judgement, or he probably did probably, and he was well aware of determinism, etc, but he had no idea or clue whatsoever who would or wouldn't be saved, or what would absolutely qualify one to be saved, or what would absolutely disqualify one from being saved, etc. He knew absolutely none of that, etc. But just had or found out some of the things that I right now have, or am right now discovering, and proclaimed himself to the world knowing that, etc. Now he obviously had a little bit more, etc, but I think a lot of it was a gift, and only came from walking right in step with his and our True God, or both his and our True Father and that One's will for him, and that One's will for him concerning the rest of us (at that time) continually, etc. It was that One's will at that time, etc, everything Jesus said and did, etc, but that One's will might be entirely different now today, etc. But Jesus had absolutely no idea or clue about who would or would not be saved, or upon what basis an individual one absolutely would or would not (or could not) be saved, other than what I have already right now told you already, or just now said, etc. Jesus supposedly went to where that Highest One is or has always been, so does he know now? or will he maybe know that when he comes back? if he's coming back maybe? I cannot answer that for us, etc. But his sacrifice, or dying, or maybe everything he tried to do, or said and did, might have been in vain, or one of the ultimate vanities maybe, since the judgement, and the real true basis for it, has never ever been changed, or altered ever, by anything, from before the very beginning, etc. Either you were a good vessel made for a good purpose that will continue to have/serve a good purpose, or you were a bad vessel created for a bad purpose, but that no longer serves a bad or good purpose, and that is the one and only judgement that ever was, or is, or that has always been true from since before the very beginning, etc. And is as unchanging as the God who truly created this and the rest of us all from the very beginning, etc. Jesus himself never lied, and you'll never find not even one lie in anything he said, etc, but he did allow us to assume/misconstrue/misunderstand a lot of things about him and what he said/did despite whether it would be good or bad for a lot of us either in the immediate, or in or by the end of it really, etc.

Anyway, that's enough for now.

God Bless.

Are you a Christian? It would help to know who is or isn't?

 

[Jo555]

@Bradskii Does it concern you at all that people who agree with you in this thread tend to be people who talk to themselves?

It matters not that some mat not listen. As believers we are not moved by that. We are moved by the love of God.

Maybe I am wrong, and do know I am not saying this is absolutely correct, but there MAYBE a hidden agenda in all this that a Christian's belief system is based on a bunch of knowledge handed down and it is all a bunch of baloney and pipe dream, and then atheist will go on to expound on their intellect and knowledge, all faculties of the human nature and no one can truly know God coming from that.

But that whole argument for why Christians believe, therefore there is no God, etc, it is just a faculty of knowledge and it is blown out of the water because that is all part of partaking of the knowledge of good and evil, which is forbidden if we don't want to experience death instead of life in God.

So I don't argue with an atheist when they say that our belief systems can be a system of knowledge for it is true, but that is not God's way.

It does not mean there is no God. It means we are counting on knowledge instead of Him to reveal Himself to us and guide us.

So really, it doesn't matter if some don't listen as I am driven by love for my people to remind them that ...

That what you guys, and gals, are speaking of is forbidden fruit. So no point in disputing with an atheist when they speak of human nature and knowledge because things do go wrong, and very wrong with that because it is forbidden fruit, and God is not to blame for that. That was our choice.

 

[Jo555]

Looney for my God and people. He's crazy in love with me, and my heart just reciprocates. Wish all could come to experience his love that way surpasses knowledge and human love.

 

[Jo555]

Did want to say one more thing to my people. With the love for God and others, keep speaking. As scriptures say, the Lord's ways are foolishness to the world. If we are to be fools, let us be fools for Christ, the one that willingly came to this cesspool and suffered terribly to save us wretched folks.

Yet, also, with the Lord, discern what is just a distraction to life in Him, and what is worth it, and that may look differently for each of us, depending on what He is doing with and through each of us for Christ.

May we continue to be fools for Him!

 

[Jo555]

Think that may be my signature, "Foolish and giddy for Christ". It's a shame more aren't experiences the joys of that.

I pray that each and everyone of you will eventually be captivated by his love and become fools for Him. In your name Lord I pray. Pursue them until you've captured them by your love.

Ok, think that truly is all i have to say today. Continue on the OP and forgive me for going off topic. I'm like a mother lion protecting her cubs. The love of God compels me, foolish as that may seem.

 

[Bradskii]

@Bradskii Does it concern you at all that people who agree with you in this thread tend to be people who talk to themselves?

Some people like to clarify their thought by writing them down for general consumption. That is, not as a direct response to another post. If what is written is not addressed to you then it shouldn't concern you. It certainly doesn't concern me.

 

[Neogaia777]

Are you a Christian? It would help to know who is or isn't?

I don't feel like I should have to dignify/justify this question with a response.

I am most definitely still a Christian despite knowing almost all of the whole truth that Jesus died to give us, etc.

But many of you might not be if you more fully knew. I don't think very many of you would survive or make it through the whole process without giving up on your faith before you got through it all, or came out the other side of it all, etc. Many of you do not truly know him or Them, etc. You think you do, but you do not, etc. You know almost next to nothing about any of any of their stories, etc. To get that you have to pass through death and darkness and shadow and flame, and come out of the other side of it still fully intact, or unscathed, etc, And you people don't know anything about that either, etc. But I'm actually trying to make it a whole heck of a lot easier for you here, etc.

God Bless.