Free will and determinism

[Grip Docility]

Rejecting a concept only requires that you have reasoned that it is false, or that you dislike it (feel or intuit that it is false), or some mixture of the two. Neither reason nor feeling requires free will, culpable or otherwise.

Non-Sequitur. Circular.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Non-Sequitur. Circular.

Are you willing or able to explain why you think so?

 

[Grip Docility]

Are you willing or able to explain why you think so?

Suggesting that culpability is separate from the concept of rational freedom entirely undermines the very meaning of the word culpability.

The entire premise of creating a paradoxical concept to sustain an argument against rational logic is tantamount to circular logic that roots in non sequitur approach. I usually add, this is my opinion. However, gravity is not an opinion and neither is this point. My point in referencing gravity is that one can argue against it the entire way down from jumping out of a plane, but if that person doesn't have a parachute, their argumentation will be cut short by rational reality.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you have free will, then choose to like another pair. Pick a pair that you actively dislike and freely choose to prefer them.

Obviously you can't. Neither can I. I just had coffee with breakfast. There was a choice - Earl Grey tea or coffee. I don't like Earl Grey. I don't know why. It simply tastes revolting to me. I have no control over that whatsoever. It's the way I am built. So my choice was determined by a preference over which I had no control.

There's no free will there.

I'm pretty sure I answered this already but there's really no discussion of less consequence than that of determinism or strict causal reality.

If true...it changes quite literally nothing, including the persistent and unavoidable perception of free will.

 

[Niels]

If true...it changes quite literally nothing, including the persistent and unavoidable perception of free will.

Which is why I prefer to take a pragmatic stance. Whether we have free will, or merely the perception of it, our subjective opinions don't change fact. However, I find the perception of free will to be more useful than determinism. When I have the attitude that decisions are mine to make, for instance, I've noticed that I make better choices.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which is why I prefer to take a pragmatic stance. Whether we have free will, or merely the perception of it, our subjective opinions don't change fact. However, I find the perception of free will to be more useful than determinism. When I have the attitude that decisions are mine to make, for instance, I've noticed that I make better choices.

I think when people see themselves as having agency (as opposed to victims of circumstances) they generally make better decisions for themselves.

 

[rjs330]

So free will cannot be compatible with determinism. And if existence is deterministic then free will is an illusion.

Exactly.

 

[rjs330]

Determinism is nothing more than a way of absolving oneself from the ultimate consequences of ones actions.

Free will then does not absolve us of the consequences of our actions.

 

[partinobodycular]

I just came across this video and it reminded me of this thread, and your position in particular. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on it.

 

[Bradskii]

I just came across this video and it reminded me of this thread, and your position in particular. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on it.

His position matches mine. I'm not sure I would have started with 'You have a choice' as that in itself implies free will for so many people. Bit otherwise...I don't see anything with which I'd disagree.

 

[MassimoTheChristian]

Wrong free will and determinism can both exist at the same time just at different times some people have a choice which is free will and then at other times there is no free will.

 

[Bradskii]

Wrong free will and determinism can both exist at the same time just at different times some people have a choice which is free will and then at other times there is no free will.

When you have a choice you always pick that which you prefer. By definition. And you have no choice as to what you prefer. You can't will yourself to prefer X over Y. You can choose to pick X, but then...that's your preference.

There's literally no way out of this. Even choosing something that you don't want to do, like going for a run when it's cold and wet, is still your preference - because you want to maintain your fitness and that outweighs sitting on the couch with a beer watching the game.

 

[MassimoTheChristian]

When you have a choice you always pick that which you prefer. By definition. And you have no choice as to what you prefer. You can't will yourself to prefer X over Y. You can choose to pick X, but then...that's your preference.

There's literally no way out of this. Even choosing something that you don't want to do, like going for a run when it's cold and wet, is still your preference - because you want to maintain your fitness and that outweighs sitting on the couch with a beer watching the game.

But even forcing yourself to do something that you hate is still a choice.

 

[Bradskii]

But even forcing yourself to do something that you hate is still a choice.

You make the choice. But whatever you choose is your preference. I hate running when it's cold and wet. But I prefer that to not keeping fit.

 

[MassimoTheChristian]

You make the choice. But whatever you choose is your preference. I hate running when it's cold and wet. But I prefer that to not keeping fit.

So what you are saying is that you cannot make a choice against your preference ?

 

[Bradskii]

So what you are saying is that you cannot make a choice against your preference ?

Your choice is your preference. By definition. It's nonsensical to say that you can choose what you don't prefer.

 

[MassimoTheChristian]

Your choice is your preference. By definition. It's nonsensical to say that you can choose what you don't prefer.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree you can do something that you don't prefer it's possible.

 

[Bradskii]

I understand what you are saying but I disagree you can do something that you don't prefer it's possible.

Can you give me an example?

 

[MassimoTheChristian]

Can you give me an example?

I would hate to eat a salad but I would be able to take a bite from it and eat a little bit of it.

 

[Bradskii]

I would hate to eat a salad but I would be able to take a bite from it and eat a little bit of it.

So now we ask what would be the reason for eating something you disliked. Which would be?