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Free will and determinism

partinobodycular

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You try it because she has persuaded you.

She caused you to contemplate one potential outcome... her happiness, against all the other potential outcomes, and it's that process of weighing the potential outcomes that then manifests itself as what you prefer. She simply induced you to consider one potential option, but she didn't force you to choose it. That's on you and you alone.

When we consider the potential outcomes we induce an emotional response towards them, which culminates in what we prefer. And it isn't something that's imposed upon us against our will... it is our will. It's what we prefer. It's not as if you can claim that you did something that you really didn't want to do... if you did it, it's because you chose to do it, even knowing that you might later regret it.

That's one of the pitfalls of contemplative free will... it doesn't mean that you won't make poor choices, it simply means that you'll have no one to blame but yourself. You contemplated your actions. You considered the outcomes. And you acted accordingly. Therefore you're culpable.
 
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Neogaia777

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She caused you to contemplate one potential outcome... her happiness, against all the other potential outcomes, and it's that process of weighing the potential outcomes that then manifests itself as what you prefer. She simply induced you to consider one potential option, but she didn't force you to choose it. That's on you and you alone.

When we consider the potential outcomes we induce an emotional response towards them, which culminates in what we prefer. And it isn't something that's imposed upon us against our will... it is our will. It's what we prefer. It's not as if you can claim that you did something that you really didn't want to do... if you did it, it's because you chose to do it, even knowing that you might later regret it.

That's one of the pitfalls of contemplative free will... it doesn't mean that you won't make poor choices, it simply means that you'll have no one to blame but yourself. You contemplated your actions. You considered the outcomes. And you acted accordingly. Therefore you're culpable.
The question is whether or not those choices were caused by things that were not "of you", and then whether or not those were also caused, etc, also not of your own doing or beyond your own control, and not needing or requiring your input at all, etc, forming a singular nigh endless chain, going all the way back to the very first cause, or the beginnings of this universe, etc?

And that most of the evidence, right now anyways, seems to suggest they always were, or always are, etc. And this is secular evidence, that completely leaves out the theological, etc. Which I think supports it as well, etc.

Take Care.
 
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Neogaia777

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The question is whether or not those choices were caused by things that were not "of you", and then whether or not those were also caused, etc, also not of your own doing or beyond your own control, and not needing or requiring your input at all, etc, forming a singular nigh endless chain, going all the way back to the very first cause, or the beginnings of this universe, etc?

And that most of the evidence, right now anyways, seems to suggest they always were, or always are, etc. And this is secular evidence, that completely leaves out the theological, etc. Which I think supports it as well, etc.

Take Care.
Think about right before you make a choice, or decide what your next thoughts/actions are going to be next, and consider what is really going on or happening, etc.

You'll find it's just a calculation each time, etc. And this includes your own thoughts also. You're not actively deciding what your next thoughts will be, or how you will choose to act/not act upon them, or decide something else about them, or upon them, etc, but what you are going to think next, is either caused by another thought that was also caused, or it's a computation/calculation based on either new or old information, that has already programmed/dictated to you as to what you are going to do/say/think next, and it's all 100% predictable, etc. And new information, like something that just occurred to you, does not prove that the universe is not deterministic, or that free will exists either, etc, because that new thought/revelation/epiphany was itself also caused to come to you right then by prior knowledge/input before that that was also caused also, etc, going all the way back to the original cause, etc. And it's been all totally predictable since then, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
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Bradskii

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When we consider the potential outcomes we induce an emotional response towards them, which culminates in what we prefer.
It's not correct to say 'we induce an emotional response'. That's saying that we choose to have that emotional response. That's simply not possible. You can't choose to be happy or angry or nervous. Those are reactions to conditions outside of your control.

Try it if you like. Be happy for 5 minutes. Then be angry. Then nervous. Then prefer coffee over tea. You have no control over your emotions at all. None. And if your wife persuades you to try coffee then you can't decide not to be persuaded. You can't choose not to be convinced by an argument.
 
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rjs330

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Sorry you see it that way.

God Bless.
Well it is how scripture describes. We have choices. Sorry you see it differently. Because it kind of flies in the face of all the commands and guidance of scripture and the justice of God.
 
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Neogaia777

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Well it is how scripture describes. We have choices. Sorry you see it differently. Because it kind of flies in the face of all the commands and guidance of scripture and the justice of God.
And I assume you are talking about God in the OT, and Jesus, who was caught up in all this determinism by God the Father as well?

Because of course they are going to have to try and explain things to us from the perspective of choice, etc.

Even if they already knew that there was really fully not really, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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Because it kind of flies in the face of all the commands and guidance of scripture and the justice of God.
What if we've greatly misunderstood the purpose of the commandments of scripture, and have very much greatly misunderstood, especially the justice of God?

But, no, couldn't be that, right?

Because humans are infallible, right?

God Bless.
 
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rjs330

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To approach this from a religious perspective, if there is a God who knows what your choices are all already going to be, or the very thoughts that you are going to have next, or knows where everything, and every single particle/cell/molecule/person/place/thing is going to be, and always what it is going to be doing next, and knows all of this from beginning to end, and knew this all from the very beginning, etc, then I don't see how you can't conclude that the universe is not deterministic, and that there is no such thing as free will, etc.
That's easy. Knowledge has nothing to do with free will. God knows what you will do with your free will. Omniscience has nothing to do with your will. Knows is not the same things as determines.

I see the problem here. Our minds cannot fully grasp a being like God. Nor understand Him. Our minds are limited. God is not. Let's take your argument and look at it a different way. You said he knows all those things about you. That simply means he knows you so well that he knows what you are going to do.

We all have habits. Things we do. Some of those habits are not taught, but innate in us. But often those habits can be broken. You can stop doing them if you really choose with your free will to do so.
And the other thing you need to try and follow here, from a religious perspective, etc, is that this was not Jesus, or God in the OT, etc. Because if it is/was God in the OT, then a lot of people were lying about Him, and didn't actually hear His voice, or know Him, or what He was actually saying, or was this one was truly like, etc. Because if He is as He is described, then He was not always fully omniscient, etc. And that fact is pretty obvious when you take off the religious blinders,
That's absolutely false my friend. Jesus was the God of the OT. He was the creator.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1, John 1:2, John 1:3, John 1:4, John 1:5, John 1:10, John 1:11, John 1:12, John 1:14 - American Standard Version

Just because you don't understand it us not the fault of God. It's you. And the truth is you don't have to understand it. You just have to believe it. Right now on this little blue plant you do not see things clearly. But someday you will.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 13:9, 1 Corinthians 13:10, 1 Corinthians 13:11, 1 Corinthians 13:12 - American Standard Version

Jesus reasoned this, and was part of why he had to die, etc. He took God in the Ow's wrath upon himself fully, etc, and after that, God in the OT changed in how he would now deal with men who were now believers in Jesus Christ from that point onward, etc. And He became God the Holy Spirit, or Spirit of Jesus Christ, in the NT, and after that, etc.
You are partially correct. There is no part of why Christ had to die. He had to die to be a propituation. He died to save us from our sin. Period. The spirit was sent by God and Jesus was God.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you. And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you. All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you. A little while, and ye behold me no more; and again a little while, and ye shall see me.
Bible Gateway passage: John 16:7, John 16:8, John 16:9, John 16:10, John 16:13, John 16:14, John 16:15, John 16:16 - American Standard Version

Dud you catch that? Jesus will sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus go to the Father. He diliniates the difference between the tge Father and the HS. The apostles in their letters tell us numerous times that God sent the HS.

Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I'm sorry, but there is no where in scripture that states the Father became the HS.

And certainly have no idea where you have gotten your theology from. Scripture proclaims that God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

He proclaimed himself,For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath; that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us: which we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and stedfast and entering into that which is within the veil;
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6:17, Hebrews 6:18, Hebrews 6:19 - American Standard Version

It's impossible for God to lie. And since God spoke to us through the prophets they also did not lie for they were inspired by God to write what they did.
 
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rjs330

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You'll find it's just a calculation each time, etc. And this includes your own thoughts also. You're not actively deciding what your next thoughts will be
That's correct. That's free will. Making a choice based upon the calculations you make in your mind.

As a man thinketh so is he. You think, consider and choose. Sometimes we make choices that we know we shouldn't make. And even in the middle of doing it we know it was the wrong choice. But we don't always do that.

Determinism belies the jusdgement of God. If it were a determined we were going to accept Chrust or not, then Jesus would have had no need to tell his disciples to go out and preach the gospel. If it were predetermined that we were not going to follow God then tge justice of God is a false justice. God would be Unjust and therefore unworthy of our worship.
 
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rjs330

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What if we've greatly misunderstood the purpose of the commandments of scripture, and have very much greatly misunderstood, especially the justice of God?

But, no, couldn't be that, right?

Because humans are infallible, right?

God Bless.
What other purpose could there be? Why would God command us to do something or not do something if we had no choice in the matter. Command would be useless.

We haven't misunderstood the justice of God. God is righteous in all his judgements. It would be an unrighteous God who met out judgments on things that man had no control over. There is a choice we must all make. To accept Christ or not. It's an unrighteous and Unjust God who sends his son to die fir the world but no one in this world has any choice to serve him or not.

Never forget the words of Joshua. "Choose this day whom you will serve."
 
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Niels

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Although it probably won't change any minds here, I think this is funny and pertinent:

fatalism_large1.jpg
 
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All decisions we make are determined by existing and prior influences. There has been an effectively infinite chain of events which has resulted in me sitting here writing this sentence. They have all led to this point. From the major events - I was born at a specific time and place, to the minor ones - it's raining today, to the seemingly inconsequential - I broke a string on my guitar last night.

There is no way that existence cannot be described other than determined.

The question is then not whether we make decisions that affect the trajectory of future events - I obviously decided to do this rather than something else. But if free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events and we could rerun the last hour exactly as it happened and make a different decision, then something actually needs to be different. But rerunning it exactly as it happened means that nothing is different.

So free will cannot be compatible with determinism. And if existence is deterministic then free will is an illusion.
You should be a primitive man, without any culture, possessed by instinct like animals, without civilization. Noooo. Really happy
to live in a christian nation, today, together with my soccer/science passion, without serpents(and without bears and wolves in my land!!!) etc...

Icona di Verificata con community
 
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Bradskii

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You should be a primitive man, without any culture, possessed by instinct like animals, without civilization. Noooo. Really happy
to live in a christian nation, today, together with my soccer/science passion, without serpents(and without bears and wolves in my land!!!) etc...

View attachment 353894
Sorry, that didn't make a lot of sense to me.
 
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Bradskii

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NxNW

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'But if free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events...'

If you can give me an example of a decision that isn't, then you might be on to something.
If we agree that all protons are identical and we observe that some protons decay at different times from other protons, then you have an example of the film being replayed with different results.

If, in a Schroedinger's Cat sense, I base a decision on when a given proton decays, or exactly how many protons decay in a strict timeframe, I'll get different results. In my view, this defeats causal determinism. The uncertainty principle manifests itself in our macro world, so it's nonsensical to hypothesize replaying the film.
 
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Bradskii

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If, in a Schroedinger's Cat sense, I base a decision on when a given proton decays, or exactly how many protons decay in a strict timeframe, I'll get different results.
Agreed. They'll be random decisions. Not free will decisions.
 
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Bradskii

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If they don't have a cause, then I'd say the determinist argument is falsified.
The argument is that if the world is entirely deterministic there is no free will. But if there is a randomness that rejects the concept of determinism, then that can't be used to support freewill. If your decisions are based on randomness - a photon decaying or the roll of a die, then there is no free will there either. You can't call it free will if you roll a 1 for going to the beach, 2 for going to the pub, 3 for staying home...etc. Or if the photon decays at time t1, t2, t3...etc.

But going back to the decaying photon, something actually caused it to decay. Something determined that it would. It would be impossible to predict when it was going happen but unpredictability doesn't negate determinism.
 
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