Free will and determinism

[Neogaia777]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that there's a fundamental error in your understanding of God's omniscience. I don't think that God's omniscience stems from the fact that determinism preordains the end from the beginning, it stems from the fact that God can 'see/know' the end from the beginning. To our eyes that looks as if the ending is preordained, and therefore determinism is true and we have no free will.

Instead think of it this way... your knowledge of what happened yesterday didn't cause what happened yesterday. Yet you possess that knowledge. In the same way God's knowledge of all of the yesterdays... even tomorrow's yesterdays, didn't cause what happened then either, and yet He possesses that knowledge.

There's a form of antireductionism, that holds that certain properties of a system are inexplicable simply because we lack a sufficient understanding of the system, and we always will. Thus we can see determinism and think that free will is impossible, but this 'impossibility' has nothing to do with the nature of the system, instead it has everything to do with our understanding of the system. Sometimes impossible isn't really impossible... it's just inconceivable.

God may be the same way. Our understanding of His omniscience, as it concerns our free will, may have nothing to do with the nature of God, and everything to do with our understanding of God.

As a solipsist one thing is paramount, never be afraid to question what you think is right. It's not a weakness, it's not a flaw, and it's not a lack of faith... it's simply an admittance that I'm human... I don't know, what I don't know.

If there are multiple possibilities of a way a thing can go, instead of just one always, then it means neither one of those two or more different possibilities can be 100%, or if they are, then those other possibilities are absolutely 0% and those aren't any kind of real possibilities at all, and there was never any kind of real possibility of another percentage of any kind of other kind of real way they ever could have gone at all.

And if they were any other kind of real possibilities of anything other than 100% and 0% at all, then there is no way even a God could know with 100% certainty which way they were ever going to go with absolutely 100% certainty ever at all.

With multiple possibilities of a way a thing, or many things can go, then there is no way even a God could always know them all fully with 100% absolutely certainty ever at all.

This God that I am talking about here, I believe He set the very first particles in motion and knew everything from there, etc. And I believe the only way he could know/have known all of this is if it all went according to determinism from there, etc. And having an intimate knowledge of that knew how everything else was going to go/be from there, including us and the way that all of this is going now, etc, there is only one way it can possibly go, and this God fully knew it all from the very time that he et the very first particles in motion, or from there, etc. And that this is always to the end of it all as well, etc, He knew knows it all from the beginning, etc, and of course, everything in-between as well, etc. And I think all of this being deterministic is how He knows all of this, He being the one who at the beginning determined it, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

I'm at a loss as to how you can agree that all your decisions are determined by matters which are not under your control...and then still say that they are free will choices.

But we've already agreed that they are under my control. We've agreed that 'Me' and those 'antecedent conditions' are one and the same thing. Therefore anything that's under the control of those antecedent conditions is under the control of me. There's no difference. Those antecedent conditions exist in my conscious mind, and absolutely nowhere else. They have no independent existence of their own.

The former contradicts the latter.

Yes, the former contradicts the latter... determinism contradicts free will. But emergent properties are wont to do that... to exhibit characteristics not present in, or even predictable from the underlying cause. And you've already agreed that consciousness is an emergent property. It possesses characteristics that aren't present in its underlying cause. In this case that underlying cause is presumed to be the laws of physics, and those antecedent conditions are themselves emergent properties... i.e they're products of consciousness. Fear, desire, love, hate, memories, emotions, and experiences are all characteristics of consciousness... specifically my consciousness.

You simply cannot separate the two as if one is the cause of the other. The antecedent conditions can't exist without my conscious mind, and my conscious mind can't exist without those antecedent conditions.

 

[partinobodycular]

If there are multiple possibilities of a way a thing can go, instead of just one always, then it means neither one of those two or more different possibilities can be 100%, or if they are, then those other possibilities are absolutely 0% and those aren't any kind of real possibilities at all, and there was never any kind of real possibility of another percentage of any kind of other kind of real way they ever could have gone at all.

And if they were any other kind of real possibilities of anything other than 100% and 0% at all, then there is no way even a God could know with 100% certainty which way they were ever going to go with absolutely 100% certainty ever at all.

With multiple possibilities of a way a thing, or many things can go, then there is no way even a God could always know them all fully with 100% absolutely certainty ever at all.

This God that I am talking about here, I believe He set the very first particles in motion and knew everything from there, etc. And I believe the only way he could know/have known all of this is if it all went according to determinism from there, etc. And having an intimate knowledge of that knew how everything else was going to go/be from there, including us and the way that all of this is going now, etc, there is only one way it can possibly go, and this God fully knew it all from the very time that he et the very first particles in motion, or from there, etc. And that this is always to the end of it all as well, etc, He knew knows it all from the beginning, etc, and of course, everything in-between as well, etc. And I think all of this being deterministic is how He knows all of this, He being the one who at the beginning determined it, etc.

You're imagining a God that exists inside of time. I would question that assumption, as God is the Creator of time, and limiting Him to being subject to it, would preclude Him from having dominion over it.

But what do I know... I'm agnostic

 

[Neogaia777]

But we've already agreed that they are under my control. We've agreed that 'Me' and those 'antecedent conditions' are one and the same thing. Therefore anything that's under the control of those antecedent conditions is under the control of me. There's no difference. Those antecedent conditions exist in my conscious mind, and absolutely nowhere else. They have no independent existence of their own.

Those antecedent conditions are not made or created by us, but we're already there before we choose, and they decide or determine our choices, which creates new ones that will decide further ones later, but none of them are decided or chosen by us or our conscious mind.

Yes, the former contradicts the latter... determinism contradicts free will.

Glad we agree there.

But emergent properties are wont to do that... to exhibit characteristics not present in, or even predictable from the underlying cause.

There is no such thing as any kind of emergent properties that are not caused, but all are determined by antecedent conditions.

And you've already agreed that consciousness is an emergent property. It possesses characteristics that aren't present in its underlying cause.

There is no such thing as any kind of emergent properties that are not caused, but all are determined by antecedent conditions.

In this case that underlying cause is presumed to be the laws of physics, and those antecedent conditions are themselves emergent properties... i.e they're products of consciousness.

They are products of prior antecedent conditions.

Fear, desire, love, hate, memories, emotions, and experiences are all characteristics of consciousness... specifically my consciousness.

I know it might seem that way, but they are all/already have been already, all already been determined/predetermined/foreknown/caused already by the antecedent conditions that existed before them, and none of them are created by our consciousness, or our conscious mind. They are all a part of the program, etc. Love, hate, fear, desire and all of that, etc. They are all just programs, and are all a part of a much larger program, and have absolutely nothing to do with us, or our conscious mind.

You simply cannot separate the two as if one is the cause of the other.

Yes, you/me/we can, by being 100% truly honest with ourselves, and using very basic simple human logic and reason.

The antecedent conditions can't exist without my conscious mind, and my conscious mind can't exist without those antecedent conditions.

No, your wrong. And there might not even be a such thing as the "conscious mind" for us right now, etc, but that may not truly come or happen until later, or after this life is over, etc.

There is absolutely no proof of such a thing that is referred to as the "conscious mind", etc

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

You're imagining a God that exists inside of time. I would question that assumption, as God is the Creator of time, and limiting Him to being subject to it, would preclude Him from having dominion over it.

But what do I know... I'm agnostic

No, I'm not though. And this God that I'm proposing is actually the only One/God that has always existed outside of or above or beyond our time, etc.

When He created this here, He decided/determined that it would go by or would adhere to certain rules or laws that have to do with being in time, etc.

And I think I can also prove or show from the Bible that Jesus thought or knew also that this reality here was all deterministic, and how he was just as much a prisoner of it while he was here just as much as all the rest of us, and anything and everything else here, is or are, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

Those antecedent conditions are not made or created by us,

Yes they are. Every single one of them. Not consciously, but none-the-less they are created by our minds. Whether they're memories, which are simply the mind's representation of previous events, and are incomplete at best, or total fabrications at worst. Or they're emotions, which again are created by our minds.

The only antecedent conditions that we have to base our choices on are those that exist in our minds and nowhere else.

Every choice that you ever make boils down to... that option which my mind deems to be preferable to all the others.

Nothing external to your mind ever plays a role in the choices that you make. It may seem as though they do, but they don't.

For example, let's say that you like the color blue, and so you choose to paint your house blue. It may seem as though the fact that the paint is blue is what caused you to choose it. Hence an external cause. But this is simply an example of misattributing the cause. The actual cause for your choosing blue is because you like blue. If you liked red, you would've chosen red. If you liked fuchsia, you would've chosen fuchsia.

So the actual cause for your choosing any particular color... is because you like it. This preference for one thing over another thing, exists only in your mind, and is the reason behind every choice that you ever make.

There are things that you do based upon such things as instinct or impulse, but these don't constitute conscious choices.

There is no such thing as any kind of emergent properties that are not caused,

None-the-less, there are emergent properties, characteristics that are present in a system but not in their underlying cause... consciousness being a prime example. Emergent properties enable a system to do things which its constituent parts can't do on their own. In this case... make free will choices. Choices, as previously stated, are simply the mind choosing its preferred option over all other options.

That's it. That's free will... the mind using antecedent conditions that exist only within itself, to make choices about its actions.

I know it might seem that way, but they are all/already have been already, all already been determined/predetermined/foreknown/caused already by the antecedent conditions that existed before them, and none of them are created by our consciousness, or our conscious mind.

As previously stated, all antecedent conditions exist only within your own mind and nowhere else.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes they are. Every single one of them. Not consciously, but none-the-less they are created by our minds. Whether they're memories, which are simply the mind's representation of previous events, and are incomplete at best, or total fabrications at worst. Or they're emotions, which again are created by our minds.

The only antecedent conditions that we have to base our choices on are those that exist in our minds and nowhere else.

Every choice that you ever make boils down to... that option which my mind deems to be preferable to all the others.

Nothing external to your mind ever plays a role in the choices that you make. It may seem as though they do, but they don't.

For example, let's say that you like the color blue, and so you choose to paint your house blue. It may seem as though the fact that the paint is blue is what caused you to choose it. Hence an external cause. But this is simply an example of misattributing the cause. The actual cause for your choosing blue is because you like blue. If you liked red, you would've chosen red. If you liked fuchsia, you would've chosen fuchsia.

So the actual cause for your choosing any particular color... is because you like it. This preference for one thing over another thing, exists only in your mind, and is the reason behind every choice that you ever make.

There are things that you do based upon such things as instinct or impulse, but these don't constitute conscious choices.



None-the-less, there are emergent properties, characteristics that are present in a system but not in their underlying cause... consciousness being a prime example. Emergent properties enable a system to do things which its constituent parts can't do on their own. In this case... make free will choices. Choices, as previously stated, are simply the mind choosing its preferred option over all other options.

That's it. That's free will... the mind using antecedent conditions that exist only within itself, to make choices about its actions.



As previously stated, all antecedent conditions exist only within your own mind and nowhere else.

You think that what goes on in our minds is not all deterministic?

I think it's interesting that you think what happens/goes on our thoughts and minds is immune to that?

Can only reply very, very shortly right now, but I'll try to get back with more on that later, ok.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

He decided/determined that it would go by or would adhere to certain rules or laws that have to do with being in time, etc.

In this case I think that 'determined' is a far more accurate description of God's actions than 'decided' is. Decided implies a temporal act, and an atemporal being can't perform a temporal act. Instead God's very nature 'determined' what would happen, with no choice being necessary.

I think that the bible is simply attempting to portray God in a manner to which we humans can relate, but one which isn't entirely accurate.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think that the bible is simply attempting to portray God in a manner to which we humans can relate, but one which isn't entirely accurate.

Actually I believe that's the only reason for Them, or the other Two in the Trinity, etc. (Which is YHWH in the OT, and Jesus Christ in the NT, etc)

That is to show us God the Heavely Father "in time" with us, etc. Because if that God has one limitation, or any limitations at all, etc, it is that, etc. Not being being able to show us Himself to us in time with us, or in a way that we can really truly get to know Him, or can relate/understand Him, etc.

So the other Two are Him, but are what He would be, or how He would start out being (which would also have to include not knowing absolutely all of everything from the very beginning) Anyway, They are Him if He had a beginning like that, or was able to have a beginning like that, and also a middle like that, and had to grow/learn/evolve/mature, or was able to have an ending like that, after all of that, etc.

Or at least, that's a part of my belief system now, or what I believe now, etc.

No one will accept it though. But they call me a heretic and a blasphemer because of it, etc. Even though I think it is what Jesus was teaching, etc.

God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

You think that what goes on in our minds is not all deterministic?

I think it's interesting that you think what happens/goes on our thoughts and minds is immune to that?

Did I say that? I specifically said that the mind always chooses that which it prefers.

Your confusion lies in the fact that consciousness is an emergent property, and with it comes the quality of 'that which I prefer'.

"That which I prefer" is a property that things themselves don't possess, and can only be attributed to them by a conscious mind.

The question is, is the process of determining 'that which I prefer' deterministic, or something else?

Reductionism, which hard determinism ultimately boils down to, says that while everything ultimately has a cause, that cause isn't necessarily deterministic, nor understandable to us humans.

 

[partinobodycular]

Because if that God has one limitation, or any limitations at all, etc, it is that, etc. Not being eing able to show us Himself to us in time with us, or in a way that we can really truly get to know Him, or can relate/understand Him, etc.

I think that you're half right. I think that Romans 1:20 is correct when it says:

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

However I do think that you're right in that we humans fail to recognize Him.

Unfortunately, this subject is off topic, so I think that I'll simply leave it at that.

 

[Neogaia777]

Did I say that? I specifically said that the mind always chooses that which it prefers.

What it chooses and what it prefers are always determined by antecedent conditions/thoughts that already were, or already existed prior to that in the mind, etc.

Your confusion lies in the fact that consciousness is an emergent property, and with it comes the quality of 'that which I prefer'.

What the mind chooses/thinks next and what it prefers are always determined by antecedent conditions/thoughts that already were, or already existed prior to that in the mind, etc.

"That which I prefer" is a property that things themselves don't possess, and can only be attributed to them by a conscious mind.

What the mind chooses/thinks next and what it prefers are always determined by antecedent conditions/thoughts that already were, or already existed prior to that in the mind, etc.

The question is, is the process of determining 'that which I prefer' deterministic, or something else?

Definitely deterministic in my view.

Reductionism, which hard determinism ultimately boils down to, says that while everything ultimately has a cause, that cause isn't necessarily deterministic, nor understandable to us humans.

All causes, once they have passed, become or form different antecedent conditions, which were all caused ultimately, and is very much deterministic, etc.

And no, the full details are not available to us humans yet, but right now would be a thing only a very much higher being than us could possess or could fully know right now fully, etc.

But we do have, or are getting, enough of the picture right now to see the determinism in it, and determine that it is all deterministic, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Unfortunately, this subject is off topic, so I think that I'll simply leave it at that.

Ok, we can talk about it at another time.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

You think that what goes on in our minds is not all deterministic?

I think it's interesting that you think what happens/goes on our thoughts and minds is immune to that?

And beyond our thoughts, our words are not immune to it either, etc.

So we are, or have been predestined to say what we are right now saying right now, etc.

Certain things that Jesus said, like not being able to do his own will, and that his words were not his own, etc. And many, many other things like that, etc.

People don't really know what he was saying, or was trying to say by saying those kinds of things I don't think, etc?

But I know and understand them "far too well" now, etc

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

And beyond our thoughts, our words are not immune to it either, etc.

So we are, or have been predestined to say what we are right now saying right now, etc.

Certain things that Jesus said, like not being able to do his own will, and that his words were not his own, etc. And many, many other things like that, etc.

People don't really know what he was saying, or was trying to say by saying those kinds of things I don't think, etc?

But I know and understand them "far too well" now, etc

Take Care/God Bless.

It's an invasion of privacy to be sure, but I have gotten used to it now, etc.

I can't even remember what privacy is anymore, etc.

Not that I'm complaining anymore now of course, etc.

I have a constant companion with me now, and I'm a lot better off for it, etc.

I've got company with me always now in my head, lol.

Sometimes a lot of company, etc, but not a lot always, etc, lol.

A few are constant always, etc.

And don't worry, I'm already labeled certifiably nuts, or crazy, etc.

They say I'm Schizophrenic, or am Schizo-effective because of this, etc.

But I am on medication, and am seeing the right people for it, so you don't need to worry about me, ok.

I do fine most of the time, it's just the sometimes that sometimes get me, or get to me sometimes, etc.

Take Care.

 

[Neogaia777]

Certain things that Jesus said, like not being able to do his own will, and that his words were not his own, etc. And many, many other things like that, etc.

People don't really know what he was saying, or was trying to say by saying those kinds of things I don't think, etc?

And as far as things like the Garden of Gethsemane goes, he was hoping he wasn't predestined to reject it, etc.

But it was a moment of trying and testing and doubt to be sure, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's an invasion of privacy to be sure, but I have gotten used to it now, etc.

I can't even remember what privacy is anymore, etc.

Not that I'm complaining anymore now of course, etc.

I have a constant companion with me now, and I'm a lot better off for it, etc.

I've got company with me always now in my head, lol.

Sometimes a lot of company, etc, but not a lot always, etc, lol.

A few are constant always, etc.

And don't worry, I'm already labeled certifiably nuts, or crazy, etc.

They say I'm Schizophrenic, or am Schizo-effective because of this, etc.

But I am on medication, and am seeing the right people for it, so you don't need to worry about me, ok.

I do fine most of the time, it's just the sometimes that sometimes get me, or get to me sometimes, etc.

Take Care.

If you fight it/Him being in your head, then a lot of very, very bad intrusive thoughts will come into your mind like a flood, but it is not Him causing that, but is because you are fighting Him/it, etc. But if you relax a little bit, and get over the initial fright/fear/paranoia associated with it, it becomes very, very peaceful, and a very peaceful experience/place to be, and there is no where else you'd rather be, etc.

But the challenge after that is, or the challenge after that becomes, being around a lot of other people/noises/choas after that, etc, because now those can be overwhelming, etc.

Still working on that, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Bradskii]

The only antecedent conditions that we have to base our choices on are those that exist in our minds and nowhere else.

Every choice that you ever make boils down to... that option which my mind deems to be preferable to all the others.

That's a tautology. Of course every decision you make is the one that you prefer. It's nonsensical to say otherwise. Even if the choice is something you don't like, it's still one that you prefer over the other options.

But the vast number of antecedent conditions have nothing whatsoever to do with anything that you can control. Where you were born, whether you are healthy or not, whether it is raining....and based on those (plus an almost infinite number of others which will affect you in some way) will determine your decision. Which, by the very definition of that term, is the choice that you prefer.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's a tautology. Of course every decision you make is the one that you prefer. It's nonsensical to say otherwise. Even if the choice is something you don't like, it's still one that you prefer over the other options.

But the vast number of antecedent conditions have nothing whatsoever to do with anything that you can control. Where you were born, whether you are healthy or not, whether it is raining....and based on those (plus an almost infinite number of others which will affect you in some way) will determine your decision. Which, by the very definition of that term, is the choice that you prefer.

I had to learn this the hard way, especially with other people, etc.

Everything is as people right now prefer it, whether they know it right now or think it is or don't think it is right now or not.

Now knowledge or interacting with other people sometimes can sometimes change that, and sometimes not, etc, but if it does, it's because it created new antecedent conditions that change it, or make you now choose or know or think otherwise, or better, etc, but it was all caused/determined/predetermined by prior antecedent conditions or causes or choices, that were all known/caused by prior antecedent conditions before that, etc. And so on and so forth, etc.

I've especially had to learn this with people who still prefer misery right now, or who right now still want to be or stay miserable right now, etc. They may not fully realize it fully, but it's what they want right now, etc.

Sure it was also the way that they were made, and they couldn't really have chosen otherwise, but it's also what they want or would choose for themselves anyway, etc.

But this is also where the wisdom of God comes in for those who are His, etc. Because for those who are His, He works that all out for their best good in the end, etc. And in time He will teach them why they were made that way, and why it's what they would have chosen for themselves anyway, if they could see all, or see all the possible choices/paths that could have been made available to them, but were not, etc.

But please notice I said "for those who are His", because not all are His, although He has predestined/foreordained those ones also, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Zenos777]

Do we really have free will? Or do we really have free choice?

Free will is defined as having the ability to make choices, on our own, without any outside influences, including divine. Free choice is the ability to choose a choice that has been presented to you. Such as "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you this day I have set before you life and death, choose life, that both you and your seed may live. (Duet. 30:19)