Free Choice

[cygnusx1]

Does anyone ever get the feeling that rather than deal with what Romans 9 actually does say , the passage is merely used as a tool for attempting to attack Calvinists ........ not only is that poor judgment considering the text at hand , but everyone can see exegesis is none existent , and I learn just over and over again how much some men hate Calvinism ......... almost every paragraph begins with 'Calvinists teach' , or unpleasant and false accusations........


Romans 9 is first and formost about the problem of The Jews , not the Calvinists , or the Arminians !!!

Just how is it , that God's chosen people , The Jews , rejected Jesus?

has God failed ?

that is the striking theme of the passage !

Do we serve a God who plans something , desires something , and then fails ....... now that is worth a thorough study !

 

[Van]

See post #60, Romans 9:6-33 is explained correctly. The assertion that God fails is false, and the assertion that those that oppose Calvinism teach that God fails is an ad homenim. Romans 9 demonstrates Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture.

 

[cygnusx1]

See post #60, Romans 9:6-33 is explained correctly. The assertion that God fails is false, and the assertion that those that oppose Calvinism teach that God fails is an ad homenim. Romans 9 demonstrates Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture.

that is quite funny .............. wrong , but funny!

 

[Van]

Folks, read post # 60, and learn what is being obscured.

 

[cygnusx1]

Nothing is being obscured van ........... Romans 9 is about Salvation and the Jewish "problem" ......... not Calvinists

''You can look it up''!

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect" 2Tim 2:10

 

[Van]

Folks, read post # 60, and then the followup posts and decide for yourselves. Romans 9 teaches that Calvinism is a mistaken view of scriptures.

 

[LukeBritt]

Romans 9 teaches that God has sovereign, free choice.

 

[Van]

LukeBritt, I agree, but in post # 60, I showed it teaches other things as well.

 

[LukeBritt]

9:1-5
Paul wishes that he could take the place of unregenerate Israelites to whom belong the benefits of election.
9:6-8
Paul speaks that not all ethnic Israelites are actually part of the elect.
9:9-13
Paul uses Jacob and Esau as an illustration of election. They had not done anything good or bad, but God chose Jacob unconditionally. "Not because of works, but because of his call."
9:14-18
This raises the question that many ask: "Isn't election unfair?!" God has mercy on who he wants and hardens who he wants. That's right, God hardens people and has mercy on people. Pharoah was hardened so that God might show his power. Therefore, hardening is done for God's purposes, not based upon works.
9:19-26
The response the prior question is simple: how dare you talk back to God! He can make one vessel for honorable use (the elect) and one for dishonorable use (dishonorable use). Election is not only for the Jews, but also for the Gentiles.
9:27-29
The Lord is not saving all of ethnic Isreal, but only a remnant.
9:30-33
I've explained this how I viewed this in an earlier post.

 

[Philip dT]

Thanks Van, I enjoyed post 60# although I do not see everything exactly the same as you do.

Cygnusx1, about post 59:

You said:

How is it if the Jews are God's chosen people and they are deeply loved by God that they are not saved ???

It is not about the salvation of the Jews or not, it is about the fact that God hardened their hearts to the gospel in order for His plan of salvation to get to the Gentiles. This passage does not say that all the Jews who were hardened never came to faith. Compare Rom 11:11-23:

Rom 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

You also say:

the idea is , how can God act like this , how can God decide the destiny of each creature , and each and every person?
It seems almost beyond belief that God would fashion a person for Glory or for destruction based upon His FREE WILL ....... because then how can He hold us responsible ?

This is not about ultimate destiny, it is about hardening of hearts (not necessarily forever) for His purpose of salvation to all people - including the Jews if they believe.
Rom 9:33 "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

 

[Van]

Thanks Philip dt, I am glad to know someone actually read it, it was a tad long.

 

[Van]

LukeBritt, in verses 1-5 you blur the election of the Jews to bring forth Christ with election unto salvation. The only election implied in verses 1-5 is of the Old Testament children of the promises.

Paul explains in verses 6-8 that being born a Jew does not make you a part of God's chosen, you must be chosen by God.

Paul illustrates this point by describing God's choice of Esau and Jacob, not on the basis of anything they had done, they were still in the womb. But this election was not unconditional, the twin that would emerge first would serve the heel grabber to fulfill God's words to Rebekah in Genesis 25:23. Also note, this election is of living people, babes in the womb, and not foreseen individuals. What is clear is God chooses folks in order to cause them to act in a manner to fulfull God's purpose. For example, God raised up Pharoah to demonstrate His power and magnify His deliverance.

So then God has mercy on living folks and hardens living folks as He desires.

Now if you reject this truth, you will say Why does God still find fault with those He hardens? Who can resist His will if He wants you to oppose God or His gospel. This is a silly argument, God is the creator and who are we to argue with God. God can do with us as He desires. So rather than make a silly argument, consider this - what if God endured with patience we who are wretched sinners, vessels of wrath in order to provide time for us to hear the good news and accept the good news and become vessels of mercy. Do not worry about how God deals with others, accept the gospel, trust in Christ, trust in the New Covenant in His blood. See Romans 10:8-10.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnusx1, about post 59:

It is not about the salvation of the Jews or not, it is about the fact that God hardened their hearts to the gospel in order for His plan of salvation to get to the Gentiles.

The whole point of hardening in Romans 9 is to create vessels of wrath ....... so I would disagree that hardening is nothing to do with salvation.

This passage does not say that all the Jews who were hardened never came to faith.

The passage is Romans 9 is certainly talking about both mercy and hardening in the context of both Salvation and destruction.

Compare Rom 11:11-23:

Rom 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

While God has revealed a dual purpose to hardening vessels of wrath fitted to destruction , it nevertheless remains as clear as crystal that the Jews who were not hardened were a remnant set aside by God , and the basis of this action is God's Mercy , not man's actions!

Rom 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Of course God continues to promise salvation for believing Jews , the door is still open , they are without excuse should they PERSIST in their unbelief .

This is not about ultimate destiny, it is about hardening of hearts (not necessarily forever) for His purpose of salvation to all people - including the Jews if they believe.

It certainly is about ultimate destiny , that is why Paul is so grieved , even wishing that he himself could be cut off from Christ if it would save The Jews!

Rom 9:33 "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

God's promise still holds up ............. even when The Lord has another purpose......... there is often a dual purpose in God's dealings , and that is why the issue of God's will (which cannot be thwarted) is often misunderstood.

God Bless

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnusx1, about post 59:

It is not about the salvation of the Jews or not, it is about the fact that God hardened their hearts to the gospel in order for His plan of salvation to get to the Gentiles.

The whole point of hardening in Romans 9 is to create vessels of wrath ....... so I would disagree that hardening is nothing to do with Reprobation.

This passage does not say that all the Jews who were hardened never came to faith.

The passage is Romans 9 is certainly talking about both mercy and hardening in the context of Salvation and destruction.

Compare Rom 11:11-23:

Rom 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

While God has revealed a dual purpose to hardening vessels of wrath fitted to destruction , it nevertheless remains as clear as crystal that the Jews not hardened were a remnant set aside by God , and the basis of this action is God's Mercy , not man's actions!

Rom 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Of course God continues to promise salvation for believing Jews , the door is still open , they are without excuse should they PERSIST in their unbelief .

This is not about ultimate destiny, it is about hardening of hearts (not necessarily forever) for His purpose of salvation to all people - including the Jews if they believe.

It certainly is about ultimate destiny , that is why Paul is so grieved , even wishing that he himself could be cut off from Christ if it would save The Jews!

Rom 9:33 "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

God's promises still hold up ............. even when The Lord has another purpose......... there is often a dual purpose in God's dealings , and that is why the issue of God's will (which cannot be thwarted) is often misunderstood.

God Bless

 

[Philip dT]

God's promises still hold up ............. even when The Lord has another purpose......... there is often a dual purpose in God's dealings , and that is why the issue of God's will (which cannot be thwarted) is often misunderstood.

I'm not convinced that there is a "dual purpose" here. You will have to convince me from the text itself. It is about the hardening of the Jews hearts (not their destiny) in order to bring salvation to all - nothing more, nothing less.

God bless you too

 

[LukeBritt]

How was it not their destiny? Show me in the text itself.

 

[Philip dT]

How was it not their destiny? Show me in the text itself.

Read posts 57 and 70.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm not convinced that there is a "dual purpose" here. You will have to convince me from the text itself. It is about the hardening of the Jews hearts (not their destiny) in order to bring salvation to all - nothing more, nothing less.

God bless you too

hi Philip , it is not me that has to convince you of anything , but The Holy Spirit.

i have given you at least two reasons why Romans 9 is in the context of salvation and reprobation...

1.Paul is heart broken , if Reprobation isn't in view , then we have crocodile tears !

2.''Vessels of wrath'' , not vessels of rubber , who when dropped bounce straight back again!

also , was Pharoah part of the package to harden the Jews ?

No!

He was used by God to soften the Jews .

Now , the hardening of the nation of Israel was not only individuals (see individuals are mentioned in Romans 9 not just a generic group)

it was also the vast majority of the Nation , and this was HISTORICALLY speaking a tempory hardening , in order to graft in Gentiles ....

Notice , the branches in Romans 11 were broken off , that is individuals were condemned for their unbelief , these individuals will not be making a recovery , they have been broken off....... and then we were grafted in their place into Spiritual Israel ........ there is only One Church , One Mount Zion , One Bride of Christ , she is Israel , Spiritual Israel .

This was a hardening of the WHOLE nation (except the remnant) to make them as a nation stumble , not to fall but to end up being jealous .

Paul elsewhere states that he continues preaching the Gospel that he might save SOME (of the Jews)

"Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."

Romans 11:13-14

so many times I have seen people 'fleeing' out of Romans 9 and into Romans 11 (as fast as running from a plague of locusts) and attempting to make Romans 11 EXPLAIN ROMANS 9 !

Romans 9 is a detailed intricate look at PERSONAL Election and Reprobation .... whereas Romans 11 is a generic view of the nation of Israel.

God Bless

 

[Philip dT]

so many times I have seen people 'fleeing' out of Romans 9 and into Romans 11 (as fast as running from a plague of locusts) and attempting to make Romans 11 EXPLAIN ROMANS 9 !

Sadly, the opposite is true. It is so sad that people who identify themselves as anything other than mere Christians (by identifying themselves by way of a certain doctrinal preference), so often isolate "favourite" portions of Scripture that aparantly "serve their notions." Ironically, these passages never teach that notion, but they tend to get caught up in certain words or phrases, anable to see the whole truth. But as soon as it is viewed in the whole truth of that Bible-chapter or that Bible-book or the whole Bible, they paddle and paddle as to retain their preconceived notion. They cannot see the bigger picture, for they are are blinded by their own man-made doctrinal preference, and the natural man will refuse to let go of that notion as long as they are led by their own mind and emotions and not by the Spirit of the Living God.



1Co 2:14-16 “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. (16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”



And you are right, it is only the Holy Spirit that can convict - the Spirit of Truth. I am completely aware of the fact that I will not convict someone in this forum, for I was not convicted by man either. I was brought up a Calvinst and completed my theological studies at a Calvinist institute and I know all the arguments, and I mean all of them. And I went to and fro. At times I was convinced in my mind (not convicted) that Calvinism was right and then I defended it vigourously - using those same arguments. But every time when it was just me and the Lord and the Bible, I only heard one message, one Word, one truth. And that convicted me of the truth, not man.

 

[cygnusx1]

Sadly, the opposite is true. It is so sad that people who identify themselves as anything other than mere Christians (by identifying themselves by way of a certain doctrinal preference), so often isolate "favourite" portions of Scripture that aparantly "serve their notions." Ironically, these passages never teach that notion, but they tend to get caught up in certain words or phrases, anable to see the whole truth. But as soon as it is viewed in the whole truth of that Bible-chapter or that Bible-book or the whole Bible, they paddle and paddle as to retain their preconceived notion. They cannot see the bigger picture, for they are are blinded by their own man-made doctrinal preference, and the natural man will refuse to let go of that notion as long as they are led by their own mind and emotions and not by the Spirit of the Living God.



1Co 2:14-16 “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. (16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”



And you are right, it is only the Holy Spirit that can convict - the Spirit of Truth. I am completely aware of the fact that Iwill not convince someone in this forum, for I was not convicted by man either. I was brought up a Calvinst and completed my theological studies at a Calvinist institute and I know all the arguments, and I mean all of them. And I went to and fro. At times I was convinced in my mind (not convicted) that Calvinism was right and then I defended it vigourously - using those same arguments. But every time when it was just me and the Lord and the Bible, I only heard one message, one Word, one truth. And that convicted me of the truth, not man.

and how does that show the difference between national and personal Election ?

Romans 9 shows vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath both created by God for a purpose.
Romans 11 shows another purpose that of National Israel , they will be brought back into faith ........ at the end!


Is it God's purpose that every single person is saved ?

If not , then you have to admit that God is Sovereign in salvation!