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Framework Hypothesis/Interpretation

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owen_rocks

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rmwilliamsll

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imho, the best introduction to FI is a nice essay posted at tweb:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13180.html

here is a list of books i keep at amazon on the topic:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...RX8/ref=cm_aya_av.lm_more/103-9859407-0963825

there is quite a bit on the net about it, however i don't have a good links list to point you to...yet.

it is important to note, that one of the best denominational papers on the issue, the PCA creation report: http://www.pcanet.org/history/creation/report.html
covers and accepts FI as a valid interpretation of Genesis.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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sorry, i run linux and it is a real pain to read word.doc so i rarely bother following them, so i was unaware it was the same as the tweb posting. oops, but guilty with an explanation *grin*


i suspect most students studying at Westminster come out with a healthy respect for FI. i've been through the reading list i posted and have defended FI numerous times online. It solves most of the major problems that pop up with a science-theology interface with Gen 1. Without buying into the liberal myth explanation which does seem to be a slippery slope. However it doesn't do anything to help date or elaboration Adam's position--but it doesn't intend to. so my major study/interest is Adam and Gen2-5, just now.

Since the PCA report allows FI, although it denies TE/EC/PE, i'm convinced of the position and can see it as throughly orthodox. So i guess i've integrated it into my thinking pretty completely over the last 25 years and don't have any outstanding questions regarding it...

---
post posting edit
a few links

http://spindleworks.com/library/zylstra/framework.htm
http://reformed.org/creation/
http://www.twoagepress.org/books.htm
 
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owen_rocks

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rmwilliamsll said:
sorry, i run linux and it is a real pain to read word.doc so i rarely bother following them, so i was unaware it was the same as the tweb posting. oops, but guilty with an explanation *grin*
No OS is painless of course. If you run Windows you get viruses. If you run Linux, you jump through hoops to get certain things to work right. But..linux
certainly has evolved for the better since the early days.

Who said that??? :confused:


So i guess i've integrated it into my thinking pretty completely over the last 25 years and don't have any outstanding questions regarding it...
Have you ever read Pipa's critique of it? A link was off of one of the
ones you posted.

http://capo.org/cpc/pipa.htm

A few points he makes:

1) The correlation between days 1-3 and 4-6 isn't as clear as FI'ers
would make it out to be.

2) Ex 20:11/31:17 point to 6 literal day creation with 1 day of rest.

3) Just because God was using natural providence (as indicated
by 2:5-7) in that instance doesn't mean he was using it throughout
Chapter 1..since obviously God was doing miraculous things.


Any comments on those points?

regards,
o/r
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I think what FI does more than anything else is to get the discussion off the historical/scientific order of the day and onto the big picture which is (1)Providence, God creates the conditions and kingdoms and then fills them. (2)it concentrates on the de-sacralization of the earth, in particular, the showing that the things of this world are not gods. This is the second part of the take home message of Genesis 1. 1st God did it, and 2nd, no other local god shares in His glory. Not the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars etc. They all are commanded to their places by God. But with a YECist view this is lost in the defence of the days in order. By seeing the three pairs (1-4,2-5,3-6, capped by 7) all of this alignment with modern science disappears and the religious significance of the days reappears.

as to:

3) Just because God was using natural providence (as indicated
by 2:5-7) in that instance doesn't mean he was using it throughout
Chapter 1..since obviously God was doing miraculous things.


I am still working on these associated issues, thinking in terms of the 'bias towards the extraordinary'. It appears to be a human preference to the miraculous, the flashy and showy, i am not sure God shares our attachments (*grin*). I am curious that miracles are almost always attached to a serious explanation in the Scriptures, as if the context needs to be reaffirmed to us each time. I find providence and 'normal life' creative and miraculuous, more so as i grow older, i like H.Van Til's 'fully gifted creation' idea, it pushes all the miracle to the creation of the universe and stuff, and lets Providence do the rest. But i don't think these are the big things of Gen 1, anymore than we should spend time trying to figure out how the light came before the lightbearers, there are bigger issues involved.....
 
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gluadys

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owen_rocks said:
2) Ex 20:11/31:17 point to 6 literal day creation with 1 day of rest.


I don't see the logic of this point. Suppose the Genesis days are ages of indeterminate length as Day-Age OECs suggest.

Why could they not be commemorated in a rhythm of six days work and one day rest, whatever the length of the creation days?

There is also the cycle of sabbath years. Just as people and animals are to rest one day in seven, the land is to be rested one year in seven. Is not this just as much a commemoration of God's creative days as the weekly cycle is?

Surely the real focus here is on sabbath, not on the literalness of the days. God rests from his work, though he needs no rest, as an example to all of us to take rest and give rest to our employees, servants, animals and land, because we DO need rest. We DO need time to contemplate the works of God and call them "very good".
 
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owen_rocks

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gluadys said:
I don't see the logic of this point.

It is based upon the analogy of Scripture doctrine (ie. Scripture interprets Scripture).

So...the logic is:

1) Genesis 1 talks about God creating in 6 days. Were these days
literal or figurative? Is there any other scripture verses that
elaborate on whether we should take these days as figurative or
literal?

2) Yes..Ex 20:11 and Ex 31:17 .. Just like the 6 day work week is
6 literal days..so also we should infer that original creation
week was 6 literal days.

regards,
o/r
 
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rmwilliamsll

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owen_rocks said:
It is based upon the analogy of Scripture doctrine (ie. Scripture interprets Scripture).

So...the logic is:

1) Genesis 1 talks about God creating in 6 days. Were these days
literal or figurative? Is there any other scripture verses that
elaborate on whether we should take these days as figurative or
literal?

2) Yes..Ex 20:11 and Ex 31:17 .. Just like the 6 day work week is
6 literal days..so also we should infer that original creation
week was 6 literal days.

regards,
o/r


perhaps i missed something.
in FI the 6 days are 24 hr days, literal days, they aren't historical or scientific days, they form a literary framework, it is the week that is figurative. in all of the 'days' discussion, an FI is just like a YEC on the meaning of the word yom.....

from the first link in the OP.

The days are ordinary solar days, but taken as a whole, the total picture of the divine work week is figurative. Although the temporal framework has a non-literal meaning, the events narrated within the days are real historical events of divine creative activity.
 
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owen_rocks

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rmwilliamsll said:
perhaps i missed something.

More than likely it is me that has missed something. :eek:

in FI the 6 days are 24 hr days, literal days, they aren't historical or scientific days, they form a literary framework, it is the week that is figurative. in all of the 'days' discussion, an FI is just like a YEC on the meaning of the word yom.....

from the first link in the OP.

The days are ordinary solar days, but taken as a whole, the total picture of the divine work week is figurative. Although the temporal framework has a non-literal meaning, the events narrated within the days are real historical events of divine creative activity.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification with respect to FI's teaching
on this.

regards,
o/r
 
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