Fourfold purpose

[Ran77]

Stewardship = to act as a steward.

Steward = a person put in charge of the affairs of a large estate, whose duties include supervision of the kitchen and servants, and magagement of household accounts.

(In this case it would be someone put in charge of God's estate.)


Authority = the power or right to give commands, enforce obedience, take action, or make final decisions.

(In this case the charge is authority over a family. Which lies with the parents.)


The first certainly sounds like a Bishop. The second does not. I have never had a Bishop order me to do anything. But I have seen plenty of Bishop actions as the steward over a portion of the Earth - wlhich God ultimately owns. That includes the kitchen (the Bishop's storehouse), the servants (the willing participants of the Gospel who serve their fellow man) and household accounts (care of the Church house and property),

 

[Wrigley]

Stewardship = to act as a steward.

Steward = a person put in charge of the affairs of a large estate, whose duties include supervision of the kitchen and servants, and magagement of household accounts.

(In this case it would be someone put in charge of God's estate.)


Authority = the power or right to give commands, enforce obedience, take action, or make final decisions.

(In this case the charge is authority over a family. Which lies with the parents.)


The first certainly sounds like a Bishop. The second does not. I have never had a Bishop order me to do anything. But I have seen plenty of Bishop actions as the steward over a portion of the Earth - wlhich God ultimately owns. That includes the kitchen (the Bishop's storehouse), the servants (the willing participants of the Gospel who serve their fellow man) and household accounts (care of the Church house and property),

Really now. Take a closer look are your definitions and tell me HOW one can have stewardship and NOT have authority over someone?

 

[A New Dawn]

To anyone interested in discussing this -

Do you think that this is an indication that the LDS Church intends to place a greater emphasis on serving the poor and the needy, or do you think that it is primarily an effort to summarize what is already being done?

Not being a member of the LDS church, I don't know the answer to your question, but I know I have seen the LDS send out disaster relief teams in the past. Katrina comes to mind, as well as other times. Up here, in Binghamton, during our flood, they sent out teams to help. I think that they are no different from most churches in that respect.

 

[Rescued One]

I have not seen it differ from ward to ward, but you might consider that your idea about something being policy is in error, as a bishop's stewardship is not exclusive to the LDS Church members of his ward, but encompasses all who live within the ward boundaries, LDS or not.

I apologize if we misunderstood each other.

I was told that tithe payers were entitled to receive help from the church. Non-members and non-tithing members did not have that right; that does not mean that the LDS church can not under any circumstances help non-members and non-tithers and I certainly didn't say that non-members could not be helped. The LDS church wants its members to be self-sufficient. If you look online, you will find the lessons about self-sufficiency. I assumed that it was church policy to always help the tithe-payers who have a legitimate need (if they cannot work, cannot find work, and/or do not have parents or other family members who are willing to help).

 

[skylark1]

Since efforts to increase the humanitarian work of the Church (which is administered according to need, not religious creed or affiliation) has been ongoing throughout the years as the Church has grown and we have had greater financial means to provide for the needs of our fellowman, I don't see adding this as one of the purposes of the Church to be any kind of new focus.

I wanted to focus on this part of your post, as it is the part that directly responds to my question.

So, publishing this as part of a four fold purpose doesn't really change anything?

But, as the needs of our fellowman increases around us, we do need to increase our attention and care of him.

There have always been needs.

 

[skylark1]

I can personally bear witness, and have, of the blessings that can come from paying an honest tithe, particularly when there is not enough money. For us, it was just as if the cruse of oil truly failed not.

In the not too distant past we spent 3 1/2 years living on worker's compensation after a serious work related accident. With worker's compensation only paying 2/3 of our former income, as well as loosing our home (which had been provided for us by my employer) and having to rent a place and move, we had nowhere near enough income to meet our expenses, yet, we paid our tithing faithfully. In addition, and on top of everything else, we had several other unexpected expenses arise during that time, and we should have been put completely under before the first year was out.

But, though the figures could never be reconciled, and no matter how serious things looked on paper each and every month, the Lord carried us through it all, and we never ran out of money, but were able to pay all our bills and expenses, in spite of the impossibility of the numbers, without using credit cards or receiving outside assistance. Who would ever wish to deny to others the multitude of blessings that can come to them for being obedient to a commandment of God?

I am glad that things have worked out for you, and that you are doing better now financially.

However, this line of thinking has a flip side. I do some volunteer work with the homeless, and this is a subject that is dear to my heart. The implication is that those who do rum out of money, who are not able to pay all of their bills and expenses are in that situation because they are less obedient. And that line of thinking reminds me of the accusations of Job's friends. They insisted that he must have sinned, and God must be displeased with him, and that that must be the reason for all of the calamities and hardships that he suffered. But reading through the book of Job, there is nothing to support their accusations.

The idea that needy people are in the situation that they are in because they are less obedient to God, is so wrong, IMO. There are good and faithful people who have found themselves in horrible circumstances. Society at large might be tempted to look down on them, and perhaps in the back of their minds think that they are better or more righteous than these people, but I think that the truth is that but for the grace of God there go I. Not because of blessings that have been given because of something that I did or didn't do, but because of God's grace.

 

[Rescued One]

I am glad that things have worked out for you, and that you are doing better now financially.

However, this line of thinking has a flip side. I do some volunteer work with the homeless, and this is a subject that is dear to my heart. The implication is that those who do rum out of money, who are not able to pay all of their bills and expenses are in that situation because they are less obedient. And that line of thinking reminds me of the accusations of Job's friends. They insisted that he must have sinned, and God must be displeased with him, and that that must be the reason for all of the calamities and hardships that he suffered. But reading through the book of Job, there is nothing to support their accusations.

The idea that needy people are in the situation that they are in because they are less obedient to God, is so wrong, IMO. There are good and faithful people who have found themselves in horrible circumstances. Society at large might be tempted to look down on them, and perhaps in the back of their minds think that they are better or more righteous than these people, but I think that the truth is that but for the grace of God there go I. Not because of blessings that have been given because of something that I did or didn't do, but because of God's grace.

Zechariah did not mention that he may have already been careful with his money, had not gone into debt, did not have a mortgage payment, etc. The LDS are also supposed to have two years' worth of food storage in addition to staying out of debt. That being said, LDS teaching is that God does not randomly pour out blessings. And LDS teach that God is obligated by His own word in D&C 130:20-21 and Malachi 3:10 to bless those who tithe.

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

D&C 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

Malachi 3
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

1 John 3
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

Isaiah 1
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:


All that being said, I knew someone who tithed in the LDS church and received church assistance with all of her mortgage payment when the husband was out of work. They did not sell their home and move to a smaller place.

 

[skylark1]

Zechariah did not mention that he may have already been careful with his money, had not gone into debt, did not have a mortgage payment, etc.

I am aware that he did not say whether he had done these things or not.

The LDS are also supposed to have two years' worth of food storage in addition to staying out of debt.

I live in Utah. I am familiar with the concept of food storage. Also, two years of food storage may have been recommended when youwere a member, but one year of food stoarage is recommended now. I hope that this thread can focus on helping the needy, rather than self sufficiency.

That being said, LDS teaching is that God does not randomly pour out blessings. And LDS teach that God is obligated by His own word in D&C 130:20-21 and Malachi 3:10 to bless those who tithe.

<snip>


All that being said, I knew someone who tithed in the LDS church and received church assistance with all of her mortgage payment when the husband was out of work. They did not sell their home and move to a smaller place.

Thanks for sharing. I am not sure if you are trying to prove that their view is true by quoting scripture. However, I still firmly believe that but for the grace of God, there go I. I do not believe that some people are blessed because they are obedient, while others suffer because they were not as obedient. Tell it to the family who is struggling to make it financially, or even homeless, because a family member has suffered a devastating illness, or because a parent has lost their job. I am not any better than they are, and do not adhere to a theology that teaches otherwise. I think that a different view could be supported by other scripture.

I have no problem with a family not having to sell their home. Others are not so fortunate, including some who are LDS.

 

[Zechariah]

I wanted to focus on this part of your post, as it is the part that directly responds to my question.

So, publishing this as part of a four fold purpose doesn't really change anything?

There have always been needs.

Of course there have always been needs, and caring for the poor and the needy has always been something the LDS Church and people have taken very seriously, and since this is just as much the stewardship of Christ's Church, as is preaching the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead, I find it a very appropriate inclusion, especially in our day, as I would expect such needs to continue increase.

After all, the Second Coming of our Lord approaches.

I am glad that things have worked out for you, and that you are doing better now financially.

Actually, our income is less now than it was then, but our cruse has still, miraculously, failed not.

However, this line of thinking has a flip side. I do some volunteer work with the homeless, and this is a subject that is dear to my heart. The implication is that those who do rum out of money, who are not able to pay all of their bills and expenses are in that situation because they are less obedient. And that line of thinking reminds me of the accusations of Job's friends. They insisted that he must have sinned, and God must be displeased with him, and that that must be the reason for all of the calamities and hardships that he suffered. But reading through the book of Job, there is nothing to support their accusations.

The idea that needy people are in the situation that they are in because they are less obedient to God, is so wrong, IMO. There are good and faithful people who have found themselves in horrible circumstances. Society at large might be tempted to look down on them, and perhaps in the back of their minds think that they are better or more righteous than these people, but I think that the truth is that but for the grace of God there go I. Not because of blessings that have been given because of something that I did or didn't do, but because of God's grace.

"This line of thinking"???

So, this, "implication," you speak of, where, "those who do run out of money, who are not able to pay all of their bills and expenses are in that situation because they are less obedient," just who are you insinuating is implying such a thing with that? Because it is certainly not myself, and that is certainly not my mindset, nor is it the mindset of the LDS Church and people.

I would not doubt that LDS people the world over could easily say, and I certainly know it is absolutely true for me, that some of the most faithful, obedient, and righteous people of God I've ever known in my life, have been poor and needy, as far as the things of this world are concerned, but it has had nothing to do with disobedience, sin, or God's displeasure.

Rather, God's desire may well be to give those who have abundance, the opportunity to give of themselves and their substance, by sharing their time and means with those who are far less fortunate. An opportunity though, which would hardly be available, if there were none in need of help. Is this not so?



As for my testimony of tithing, Skylark, it is a testimony of the blessings that can come by being obedient to God, from personal experience. It has nothing to do with what other people do, don't do, or experience. Whether you can understand it or not, though, I wouldn't know. But I know of it myself, first hand.

Mal. 3: 10

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.​

Prove me now herewith, saith the Lord... Well, I have proven the Lord to be true and faithful, Skylark, and he has poured out great blessings upon us, blessings that cannot be explained in any earthly way, any more than the widow's barrel of meal and the cruse of oil not failing, can be explained in any earthly way.

1 Kgs. 17: 8-16

8 ¶ And the word of the Lord came unto him, saying,
9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
12 And she said, As the Lord thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
14 For thus saith the Lord God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth.
15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by Elijah.​

It is significant, that Elijah, by being obedient to the Lord, and going to the widow, as he was commanded, was sustained. It is significant, that the widow, too, even in such terrible want that she had intended to prepare the last meal for she and her son, and then die, also obeyed, and was sustained.

You may not wish to concede the significance of obedience here, and I suppose it's possible that you could even be of the opinion that if Elijah had refused the Lord's command, or if the widow had refused to feed the Lord's Prophet from the little she had left, that the outcome would have been no different. But, what we know is that Elijah obeyed the Lord, and the widow also obeyed, in spite of her sore need, and ...she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.

Now, you may wish to paint what I have had to say, into some kind of distorted picture of self righteous, better than others, attitude, because I have acknowledged and proclaimed the Lord's faithfulness to his word, in pouring out blessings upon us as we've had the faith and trust to, prove him now herewith, and do as he has commanded in paying our tithing.

Oh well. If that's your intent, I would find it quite telling.

 

[A New Dawn]

Of course there have always been needs, and caring for the poor and the needy has always been something the LDS Church and people have taken very seriously, and since this is just as much the stewardship of Christ's Church, as is preaching the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead, I find it a very appropriate inclusion, especially in our day, as I would expect such needs to continue increase.

After all, the Second Coming of our Lord approaches.



Actually, our income is less now than it was then, but our cruse has still, miraculously, failed not.




"This line of thinking"???

So, this, "implication," you speak of, where, "those who do run out of money, who are not able to pay all of their bills and expenses are in that situation because they are less obedient," just who are you insinuating is implying such a thing with that? Because it is certainly not myself, and that is certainly not my mindset, nor is it the mindset of the LDS Church and people.

I would not doubt that LDS people the world over could easily say, and I certainly know it is absolutely true for me, that some of the most faithful, obedient, and righteous people of God I've ever known in my life, have been poor and needy, as far as the things of this world are concerned, but it has had nothing to do with disobedience, sin, or God's displeasure.

Rather, God's desire may well be to give those who have abundance, the opportunity to give of themselves and their substance, by sharing their time and means with those who are far less fortunate. An opportunity though, which would hardly be available, if there were none in need of help. Is this not so?



As for my testimony of tithing, Skylark, it is a testimony of the blessings that can come by being obedient to God, from personal experience. It has nothing to do with what other people do, don't do, or experience. Whether you can understand it or not, though, I wouldn't know. But I know of it myself, first hand.

Mal. 3: 10

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.​

Prove me now herewith, saith the Lord... Well, I have proven the Lord to be true and faithful, Skylark, and he has poured out great blessings upon us, blessings that cannot be explained in any earthly way, any more than the widow's barrel of meal and the cruse of oil not failing, can be explained in any earthly way.

1 Kgs. 17: 8-16

8 ¶ And the word of the Lord came unto him, saying,
9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
12 And she said, As the Lord thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
14 For thus saith the Lord God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth.
15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by Elijah.​

It is significant, that Elijah, by being obedient to the Lord, and going to the widow, as he was commanded, was sustained. It is significant, that the widow, too, even in such terrible want that she had intended to prepare the last meal for she and her son, and then die, also obeyed, and was sustained.

You may not wish to concede the significance of obedience here, and I suppose it's possible that you could even be of the opinion that if Elijah had refused the Lord's command, or if the widow had refused to feed the Lord's Prophet from the little she had left, that the outcome would have been no different. But, what we know is that Elijah obeyed the Lord, and the widow also obeyed, in spite of her sore need, and ...she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.

Now, you may wish to paint what I have had to say, into some kind of distorted picture of self righteous, better than others, attitude, because I have acknowledged and proclaimed the Lord's faithfulness to his word, in pouring out blessings upon us as we've had the faith and trust to, prove him now herewith, and do as he has commanded in paying our tithing.

Oh well. If that's your intent, I would find it quite telling.

I think you are jumping a bit to conclusions without taking the time to understand the thrust of her post. Lots of people look to those same verses and say, I gave all my money to the Lord as the Bible told me to, and trusted in him to sustain me, and I lost everything anyway. This is a very real scenario, and lots of people lose faith over this issue. I, personally, don't believe that the sustainance is in the physical blessings one receives (after all, Christ says God maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust) I believe that the sustainance that one receives when they are obedient is spiritual.

 

[skylark1]

.

 

[skylark1]

Of course there have always been needs, and caring for the poor and the needy has always been something the LDS Church and people have taken very seriously, and since this is just as much the stewardship of Christ's Church, as is preaching the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead, I find it a very appropriate inclusion, especially in our day, as I would expect such needs to continue increase.

After all, the Second Coming of our Lord approaches.

I don't think that needs are any greater than during the Great Depression when the LDS Church welfare system was started.

"This line of thinking"?

??

Yes.

So, this, "implication," you speak of, where, "those who do run out of money, who are not able to pay all of their bills and expenses are in that situation because they are less obedient," just who are you insinuating is implying such a thing with that? Because it is certainly not myself, and that is certainly not my mindset, nor is it the mindset of the LDS Church and people.

You seemed to be saying that you were blessed by God because you faithfully paid a tithe to the LDS Church. The logical converse would be that those who suffer financially but do not pay a tithe to the LDS Church are not blessed by God.

I would not doubt that LDS people the world over could easily say, and I certainly know it is absolutely true for me, that some of the most faithful, obedient, and righteous people of God I've ever known in my life, have been poor and needy, as far as the things of this world are concerned, but it has had nothing to do with disobedience, sin, or God's displeasure.

I agree.

As for my testimony of tithing, Skylark, it is a testimony of the blessings that can come by being obedient to God, from personal experience. It has nothing to do with what other people do, don't do, or experience

However, this discussion is about needy people in general. When someone shares a personal experience, there seems to be a general point being made.

Whether you can understand it or not, though, I wouldn't know.

I am sure that God knows if I can understand it or not. I am not sure what you hoped to convey by this comment.

Now, you may wish to paint what I have had to say, into some kind of distorted picture of self righteous, better than others, attitude, because I have acknowledged and proclaimed the Lord's faithfulness to his word, in pouring out blessings upon us as we've had the faith and trust to, prove him now herewith, and do as he has commanded in paying our tithing.

Oh well. If that's your intent, I would find it quite telling.

I started this thread because there are so many threads which are heated, I thought that we could use a positive thread. My INTENT in showing the converse of your statment is to defend those who are in need, those who are homeless. And yes, a lot of people (but not all) do look down on them to some extent, even when helping them. I don't know anyone here who is in that position to stand up for themselves, so I will stand up for them. I have listened to the stories of those who are homeless, and of the attitudes that are displayed towards them. There are people who are working jobs, people trying to better themselves, who still are homeless. The idea that God has not blessed them because they did not pay a tithe is an insult to them. (I know that you didn't say this, but the idea is a logical conclusion of God blessing those who pay a tithe.) Saying that God blesses financially those who pay a tithe to the LDS Church also implies that those who are suffering financially who do not pay a tithe to the LDS Church are not blessed because they do not. This belief is not limited to the LDS Church, and if a mainstream Christian expressed the same view, I would feel the same way.

I agree with Dawn that the blessings that God promises to pour out on us are more likely spiritual blessings.

Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ
​

 

[Ran77]

i think that it's coming to the time when world conditions are going to warrant more focus on this aspect.

I think you are exactly right on this. After all, it isn't as if we haven't been helping out all along. We have. It is as you suggest, a time when that effort needs to be stepped up a notch or two.

I noticed that last Conference we did not receive the normal counsel to be diligent in our year's supply and other preparations. Instead, their message was to reach out to our neighbors. I believe this represents what you have brought up here. The situation in this country, and around the world, is not good. It is past time for us to be looking to our own preparation. Now we need to reach out a hand to those who are suffering.

Will it get worse? Possibly. But the change in message during this last Conference could also represent a temporary situation. Although, I think this is really just the beginning of something that will get much worse before it gets better.

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks for sharing. I am not sure if you are trying to prove that their view is true by quoting scripture.

No, I know it isn't true that blessings are completely dependent on obedience to certain laws. God shows mercy to those He chooses to show mercy. He sends rain on the just and unjust.

However, I still firmly believe that but for the grace of God, there go I. I do not believe that some people are blessed because they are obedient, while others suffer because they were not as obedient. Tell it to the family who is struggling to make it financially, or even homeless, because a family member has suffered a devastating illness, or because a parent has lost their job. I am not any better than they are, and do not adhere to a theology that teaches otherwise. I think that a different view could be supported by other scripture.

I agree.

 

[Zechariah]

I don't think that needs are any greater than during the Great Depression when the LDS Church welfare system was started.

It's what tomorrow holds that matters now, not yesterday.

You seemed to be saying that you were blessed by Gopd because you faithfully paid a tithe to the LDS Church. The logical converse would be that those who suffer financially but do not pay a tithe to the LDS Church are not blessed by God.

Well what you consider a logical converse, has nothing to do with God bestowing blessings. Now does it?

I pay tithing to God. I have known plenty of people, not LDS, who also pay tithing to God, who, likewise, see God as the source of their blessings, acknowledging His faithfulness in blessing them for their faith, and faithfulness, in Him, in being obedient to this commandment.

But, if anyone here thinks obedience to God does not bring forth blessings, then I would encourage and recommend they, "prove me now herewith."

For those who have no means with which to obey, I have no doubt that God blesses them, according to the intents and desires of their hearts, knowing what they would do, if they could.

However, this discussion is about needy people in general.

Then maybe that should be your focus, instead of passing judgment on others because they acknowledge the blessings God has given them.

What's more, maybe you should read the 4th chapter of Mosiah, to get a little better perspective of what LDS are taught, and believe, about the poor and the needy.

Mosiah 4

When someone shares a personal experience, there seems to be a general point being made.

Indeed.

I am sure that God know if I can understand it or not. I am not sure what you hoped to convey by this comment.

Simple. Whether you can understand what I have been trying to convey, I wouldn't know, because it seems to me that you are either not understanding me, or are deliberately wanting to portray the LDS Church, its members, and/or me, in a negative light.

I started this thread because there are so many threads which are heated, I thought that we could use a positive thread.

And are you suggesting that I am to blame for this thread not being more positive?

My INTENT in showing the converse of your statment is to defend those who are in need, those who are homeless.

You know, those who are in need and/or those who are homeless, do not need you to defend them against the LDS Church, its members, or me.

And what you have determined to be the converse of what I said, looks much more like passing self-righteous judgment.

And yes, a lot of people (but not all) do look down on them to some extent, even when helping them.

And could it be that maybe you are one of those people?

I don't know anyone here who is in that position to stand up for themselves, so I will stand up for them.

Well then. Maybe you just don't know enough about the people here to pass that judgment one way or another.

I have listened to the stories of those who are homeless, and of the attitudes that are displayed towards them.

I am familiar with those attitudes. Though I've mostly found them among the faithless and ungodly.

There are people who are working jobs, people trying to better themselves, who still are homeless. The idea that God has not blessed them because they did not pay a tithe is an insult to them.

First of all, who are you to say God has not blessed them?

And yes, it is an insult, just as much as your insinuations of something so totally foreign to me and my religious faith, is insulting to me.

(I know that you didn't say this, but the idea is a logical conclusion of God blessing those who pay a tithe.)

Oh yes. Of course, your, "logical conclusion," again.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Saying that God blesses financially those who pay a tithe to the LDS Church also implies that those who are suffering financially who do not pay a tithe to the LDS Church are not blessed because they do not. This belief is not limited to the LDS Church, and if a mainstream Christian expressed the same view, I would feel the same way.

What - and you think God is not smart enough to know the intents of an individual's heart? He isn't able to know when someone, in faith, obeys His commandment to pay tithing, regardless of what church or religion that person is affiliated with? And what - God isn't smart enough, to know if someone would pay, if he knew he should and had the means?

I agree with Dawn that the blessings that God promises to pour out on us are more likely spiritual blessings.

Well I don't happen to consider any blessing to not be spiritual, whether it be food to eat, a coat to wear, or a revelation from God.

Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

Just curious, Skylark...

Have you ever had to live in your car? Have you ever lived in a garage? Or tool shed? Have you ever had to live in a tent? Not a real tent, mind you, but one made of old army blankets? And have you had to live in that tent where bear and cougar prowled nearby? Have you ever had to walk and hitch hike everywhere you needed to go, because you had no transportation? How often have you searched up and down roadside ditches looking for bottles and cans to cash in, so you could put gas in your car, in order to look for work, because you had no job or income? Have you ever had to live without electricity, without running water, without a toilet, and without even an outhouse? How often have you had to cook on a wood cook stove? How often have you had to haul your water in buckets, each day, on foot, from a spring more than 100 yards away?

Not counting camping trips maybe, how often have you laid fir boughs down on the ground, so you'd have a soft place to sleep? How often have you had to cook your food over an open fire, heat your water over the fire in order to bathe in a washtub? Had to wash your clothes on a washboard? Have you ever had no other food but a box of apples and a few condiments to eat for days on end? Have you ever fried apples and put mustard on them, just so you'd have something different to taste? How many times have you only had potatoes to eat for three weeks straight, except for the days you were able to catch fish, or shoot a quail, to eat with them? How often have you had venison and gravy for dinner because the only food you had was a sack of flour, and the deer you had to poach, in order to feed your family?

Well these are just some of the experiences my wife and I had in our early married life. Were we poor and needy? I suppose that depends on one's perspective. We never felt so. We did, though, feel greatly blessed in our abundance, and protected by our Lord. Did we pay tithing in those days too? Yes, anytime we had income, because we trusted in the Lord's faithfulness.

 

[skylark1]

It's what tomorrow holds that matters now, not yesterday.

An LDS poster had commented that they thought that "that it's coming to the time when world conditions are going to warrant more focus on this aspect." The word "more" implies a comparison with the past. More than what? More focus than was needed in the past.

Well what you consider a logical converse, has nothing to do with God bestowing blessings. Now does it?

It is a discussion board, Zechariah. I am here to here to discuss. I made no such claim that what I think dictates what God does.

I pay tithing to God. I have known plenty of people, not LDS, who also pay tithing to God, who, likewise, see God as the source of their blessings, acknowledging His faithfulness in blessing them for their faith, and faithfulness, in Him, in being obedient to this commandment.

I would like to suggest that if you want to continue to discuss tithing that you open a new thread to do so. The idea of helping the poor and the needy is getting lost in this discussion.

Then maybe that should be your focus, instead of passing judgment on others because they acknowledge the blessings God has given them.

I didn't pass judgment on you. I simply followed a statment to its logical conclusion. I am not the person who brought tithing into the discussion.

Simple. Whether you can understand what I have been trying to convey, I wouldn't know, because it seems to me that you are either not understanding me, or are deliberately wanting to portray the LDS Church, its members, and/or me, in a negative light.

Of course. Assign the worst possible motive to my words. Please leave your assumptions and accusations about what I want out of the discussion. You do not know my heart.

And are you suggesting that I am to blame for this thread not being more positive?

I have no idea how you get from this statement that you quote:

"I started this thread because there are so many threads which are heated, I thought that we could use a positive thread."​

to asking if I am suggesting that you are to blame for the thread not being more positive. I meant exacxtly what I wrote. I see no mention of you in my statement.

You know, those who are in need and/or those who are homeless, do not need you to defend them against the LDS Church, its members, or me.

Thanks for sharing you opinion. However, I will do so if I wish.

And what you have determined to be the converse of what I said, looks much more like passing self-righteous judgment.

It wasn't. However, I am not surprised that my words have been taken in the worst way possible. My words were about this view, not about you personally. I have no doubt due to past experience that you will continue to think the worst of me.

And could it be that maybe you are one of those people?

I am sure that in your mind there is no doubt that I am the biggest self righteous hypocritical pharisite posting on the board. Are you happy now?

That I cringe when I see how some people talk down to those who are homeless does not mean that I am judging them or that I do it. It is possible that their attitude will change if they spend enough time getting to know them, as my own attitude likely changed as well.

Well then. Maybe you just don't know enough about the people here to pass that judgment one way or another.

I wasn't passing judgment. I was discussing a theological view.

I am familiar with those attitudes. Though I've mostly found them among the faithless and ungodly.

I have seen them among some LDS and among some mainstream Christians. I would not call the people ungodly. Many people who haven't spent much time face to face with those who are homeless are not very comfortable with the idea. It is easier to help at arms length. And the attitudes that I was was referring to were subtle ones.

First of all, who are you to say God has not blessed them?

That isn't what I said. Who am I? I am a person on a message board trying to have a cordial conversation about a theological issue.

And yes, it is an insult, just as much as your insinuations of something so totally foreign to me and my religious faith, is insulting to me.

I am sorry that you feel so insulted. Maybe it would be best either grow some thicker skin as most of my comments were not directed at you personally or intended to be the judgments that you took them as, or drop out of the disucssion if you view it to be so terribly hostile.

Oh yes. Of course, your, "logical conclusion," again.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

I understand that you believe that my thoughts and beliefs are ungodly, but I had thought that it was possible to discuss this subject without all of the nastiness.

What - and you think God is not smart enough

I have never ever said that I do not think that God is not smart enough to do anything.

Just curious, Skylark...

Have you ever had to live in your car?

Irrelevant to this discussion. By the responses that I have received there is absolutely no way that I would put my personal life out there on this thread to be ridiculed, criticized, or judged.


.

 

[Zechariah]

Of course. Assign the worst possible motive to my words.

Unlike what you did with my words, of course.

Please leave your assumptions and accusations about what I want out of the discussion

Like you left out your assumptions and accusations about how you think tithe payers view others.

You do not know my heart.

And it's obvious you certainly don't know mine.

I didn't pass judgment on you. I simply followed a statment to its logical conclusion.

And I simply provided a reminder that what man may think is logical, isn't necessarily the way God thinks.

I am not the person who brought tithing into the discussion.

Nor am I.

Maybe it would be best either grow some thicker skin as most of my comments were not directed at you personally or intended to be the judgments that you took them as, or drop out of the disucssion if you view it to be so terribly hostile.

Grow thicker skin? Most of your comments? So you were just speaking generally, in all your disparaging remarks about tithe payers thinking they're better and more righteous than others and judging the needy and homeless because of their plight, but that offensive portrayal isn't supposed to be personal to me or anyone else who recognizes and acknowledges the blessings they've received in obeying God's law of tithing.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Oh, of course. Why should personal experience and understanding of the trials of the poor, or the needy, or the homeless, be relevant?

 

[skylark1]

Like you left out your assumptions and accusations about how you think tithe payers view others.

I did not state how I think that tithe payers view others. I stated my opinion of a theological view, and the logic that flows from it.

Grow thicker skin? Most of your comments? So you were just speaking generally, in all your disparaging remarks about tithe payers thinking they're better and more righteous than others and judging the needy and homeless because of their plight, but that offensive portrayal isn't supposed to be personal to me or anyone else who recognizes and acknowledges the blessings they've received in obeying God's law of tithing.

You are twisting my words.

A belief that one is blessed because of their obedience has a converse that one who is disobedient is not blessed. I am sorry if you find that disparaging. My comment that some people subtly look down on those who are homeless had nothing to do with whether or not one is a tithe payer. I searched through my posts in this thread, and this in the context in which I used the word better:

"people trying to better themselves"
"I am not any better than they are"
"Society at large might be tempted to look down on them, and perhaps in the back of their minds think that they are better or more righteous than these people, but I think that the truth is that but for the grace of God there go I."
"I am glad that things have worked out for you, and that you are doing better now financially"
​

That's it. I made no comment about tithe payers thinking that they are better than others.

I wrote:

The idea that God has not blessed them because they did not pay a tithe is an insult to them. (I know that you didn't say this, but the idea is a logical conclusion of God blessing those who pay a tithe.)​

Please stop putting words in my mouth that I did not say, and falsely accusing me.

Phoebe Ann posted this verse from D&C:

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.​

Several people have posted Malachi 3:10. However, I don't think that anyone posted the preceeding verses:

8 “ Will a man rob God?
Yet you have robbed Me!
But you say,

‘ In what way have we robbed You?’
In tithes and offerings.
9 You are cursed with a curse,
For you have robbed Me,
Even this whole nation.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.​

I do not believe that this passage applies to Christians, who are not under the law but under grace. However, clearly the converse in this passage is that those who did not tithe were cursed. Likewise that idea that one is blessed because they tithe when followed to a logical conclusion, includes the idea that those who do not tithe are not blessed.

 

[angelmom01]

Technically, I think that I am the one who brought tithing into the discussion. But I did not do so in order to discuss the law of tithing or it's merits (blessings). I only brought it up as it relates to OP - asking about it being a qualifying or disqualifying factor in whether or not needs are provided for by the church with regard to those who are members but not tithe payers. That is all.

 

[xenic101]

i think that it's coming to the time when world conditions are going to warrant more focus on this aspect.

Ditto

So, publishing this as part of a four fold purpose doesn't really change anything?

Essentially....
This is something the church has always done, and has always encouraged it's members to do. It has been entwined with the "Strengthening the Saints" mission of the church. Now it's being separated out as it's own distinct mission.
Each president of the church can be said to have had a main goal, a purpose if you will. With Hinkley, it was the spreading of the gospel. With Monson, it appears to be charity, the pure love of Christ. It's a topic which has received more and more emphasis over the last year, encouraging members to care more for their friends, neighbors and communities. It's not something new, simply a call to redouble efforts and focus.

Because yes, we are our brothers keepers.