Fourfold purpose

[Zechariah]

I do not believe that this passage applies to Christians, who are not under the law but under grace.

You are free to your opinion, but in order to accurately assess LDS thought and practice, LDS belief must be the defining factor, not the beliefs of other faiths. So, while it is correct that we are not under the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled in Christ, it should be remembered that the law of tithing predates the Law of Moses, as Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. Just because the law of tithing was also binding on Israel during the Law of Moses period, doesn't mean it was made void when Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses.

Now, while it may be in accord with your religious belief system that any and every commandment and law of God that pre-dates the time of Jesus' mortal life and ministry, equates to the Law of Moses, and if it is therefore assumed that all commandments, all laws, and all ordinances were made void in Christ, well, you, and others, are free believe such things, but those ideas are incompatible with LDS theology, and by use of them in assessing LDS thought and practice, flawed conclusions will result every time.

However, clearly the converse in this passage is that those who did not tithe were cursed.

Actually, they, even the whole nation, were already cursed because they had put aside God's law of the tithe, so what we actually see in this passage is the love and mercy of the Lord, as He is entreating after them, saying, "Return unto me, and I will return unto you." And in saying, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts," the Lord is inviting them to receive the blessings He desires to give them by their return to obedience.

Likewise that idea that one is blessed because they tithe when followed to a logical conclusion, includes the idea that those who do not tithe are not blessed.

No it is not the logical conclusion, as you are omitting essential elements. First one must understand what is required of him, and only then is he accountable. "...to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17) God doesn't go about cursing the innocent. I don't know how it works in your religious belief, but in LDS belief, sin is willful disobedience to the commandments of God. So, just because someone does not pay tithing, does not mean he has committed sin. What's more, the law of tithing is not binding on those with nothing to tithe, so that should further make clear that such an idea as you've posed here, is lacking.

Of course the innocent and obedient are not immune to hardship, and there is certainly nothing to guarantee they will not have suffering in this world, even grave poverty. But poverty and sin are not synonymous. A man, by committing sin, can bring about his own suffering, yes, as well as the suffering of many others, even to a great degree. All one need do is look to history and it's many tyrants to recognize this. But to equate hardship, to equate suffering, to equate being poor and in need, to equate being homeless, etc., to being disobedient to God, and therefore guilty of sin, and thus less blessed by Him, is to draw a flawed conclusion. LDS teaching does not make that equation, it being a false notion which attributes evil to God. Such is an illogical conclusion, and one which is incompatible with LDS belief.

 

[Zechariah]

Regarding the "Fourfold Purpose of the Church" I find this article does well in giving, and supporting, the LDS perspective here.



Care for needy is ongoing charge to Mormon Church

By Scott Taylor
Deseret News
Saturday, Dec. 12, 2009



Caring for the poor and the needy is not becoming so much a principle of increased emphasis for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as it is an emphasis on looking for increased opportunities for compassionate efforts and coordination both at home and abroad.

"We've been emphasizing (charitable service) as strongly as we've known how for forever," said Bishop Richard C. Edgley, first counselor in the church's Presiding Bishopric.

Media reports and blog posts earlier this week suggested that "to care for the poor and the needy" would receive elevated emphasis in the next edition of the Church Handbook of Instructions, to be released in 2010.

Source: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ng-charge.html

 

[skylark1]

You are free to your opinion

Thank you.

but in order to accurately assess LDS thought and practice, LDS belief must be the defining factor, not the beliefs of other faiths. So, while it is correct that we are not under the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled in Christ, it should be remembered that the law of tithing predates the Law of Moses, as Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. Just because the law of tithing was also binding on Israel during the Law of Moses period, doesn't mean it was made void when Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses.

What Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of was goods gained in a battle, which had belonged to the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham didn't keep any of it.

Genesis 14

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself."

22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.'​

Actually, they, even the whole nation, were already cursed because they had put aside God's law of the tithe

I suspect that some view it the same way today.

No it is not the logical conclusion

You are welcome to your opinion.

 

[gort]

Zech quotes:

You are free to your opinion, but in order to accurately assess LDS thought and practice, LDS belief must be the defining factor, not the beliefs of other faiths. So, while it is correct that we are not under the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled in Christ, it should be remembered that the law of tithing predates the Law of Moses, as Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. Just because the law of tithing was also binding on Israel during the Law of Moses period, doesn't mean it was made void when Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses.

Now, while it may be in accord with your religious belief system that any and every commandment and law of God that pre-dates the time of Jesus' mortal life and ministry, equates to the Law of Moses, and if it is therefore assumed that all commandments, all laws, and all ordinances were made void in Christ, well, you, and others, are free believe such things, but those ideas are incompatible with LDS theology, and by use of them in assessing LDS thought and practice, flawed conclusions will result every time.

Actually, when assessing lds thought and practice it is the orthodox belief which is the defining factor. Of course, this is our pov, not yours. And you're right, flawed conclusions will prolly result every time, the flaw being found in lds thought and practice.

The law of tything is still a legalism and such has no part in Grace. What the better thing to do would be to give everything you have to the poor. There is no law that covers that, but Grace encompasses such. Do you understand the difference?

 

[Zechariah]

What Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of was goods gained in a battle, which had belonged to the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham didn't keep any of it.

Genesis 14

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself."

22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.'​

The point being that Abraham obeyed God's law of the tithe. What you believe he may or may not have paid tithes on, doesn't change that.

Of course, if we're just discussing opinion back and forth, I would have to say that since Abram refused to accept any spoils of war, I find it much more reasonable to conclude that the tithes he paid to Melchizedek, were on what belonged to he and his people. And when considering that when Abram and his servants rescued Lot and Lot's wives and people, they brought back their goods as well, which had also been taken by their enemies when they were captured, I find it additionally reasonable. Besides which, from the Book of Mormon we see that Abraham paid tithes of all he possessed.

Alma 13:15
15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed. Alma 13

If Abraham refused to take anything, from thread or string to shoe latchet or sandal thong, belonging to the king of Sodom, and clearly he considered those things to belong to the king and his people ("I will not take any thing that is thine") it makes more sense to me that what he paid tithes on were the possessions of he and his own people, rather than on what belonged to his enemies.

Whatever the case, though, this is just one more example of why, in order to accurately assess LDS thought and practice, LDS belief must be the defining factor, and not the belief of others. You see, LDS are not left to the Bible alone for our understanding, and in order to accurately assess what we do, and why we do it, one cannot come up with an accurate picture if he ignores most of our canon, just because he, himself, only believes in the Bible.

We have been commanded by the Lord to pay tithing. This is not only an ancient law of God, but scripture and doctrine binding on we who are members of Christ's Church in these latter-days. What you do, in your religion, is whatever you do based on whatever you believe. But to attach to us attitudes and notions that do not reflect our thoughts or beliefs, just because you don't believe in paying tithing and think that if one were to be blessed by the payment of it, that would have to mean that needy people are in the situation they're in because they don't obey God, is to falsely color us with your own ideas.

Now, since you made an issue about discussing tithing, even though you kept commenting on it yourself, and since you said you wanted the focus of this thread to be on helping the poor and needy, if that's what this thread is really supposed to be about, then maybe you would like to address Mosiah 4, which I posted, where the second half of the chapter specifically speaks of the poor and the needy, and helping them. Or, maybe you would like to address the Deseret News article that I provided, as it does as well, by discussing that fourth purpose of the Church, as in the "fourfold purpose" you based this thread upon.

 

[xenic101]

Whatever the case, though, this is just one more example of why, in order to accurately assess LDS thought and practice, LDS belief must be the defining factor, and not the belief of others. You see, LDS are not left to the Bible alone for our understanding, and in order to accurately assess what we do, and why we do it, one cannot come up with an accurate picture if he ignores most of our canon, just because he, himself, only believes in the Bible.

Right