- Jan 25, 2009
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Shalom
Concerning why I made this thread (in light of what was stated elsewhere on founders - including people like William Seymour), I was writing due to seeing if others here would be willing to address the subject of who is - or isn't - foundational to the world of WOF. I ask this due to how it has been brought up a number of times that the only founders in the WOF Movement are those such as Capps, Hagin and Copeland.
Moreover, it has been said by others that those NOT listening solely to those groups are not really seeing what the Faith Movement is about. However, growing up, I was a part of the Faith Movement that did not emphasize those individuals solely. I grew up with others such as T.L Osborn and Creflo Dollar. I also grew up with people like Lester Sumrall (with others under him such as Pastor Jason Kerr of Global Force Ministries....we're actually friends since he came to our youth camps as well as working with Paul and Jan Crouch and Jessie Duplantis and being on TBN on a number of occassions
And for others, they did ecumenical work with a number of differing groups simply by virture of the reality of Network T.V/Media - as TBN was the main place for many in the Faith Movement to share their views and they did so in unison with other ministers who may have disagreed with them on a couple of issues. Many were involved in working with differing fields OUTSIDE of WOF....and sadly, when an opinion is given by others supporting certain camps of WOF, people automatically caricature in thinking "Well, they aren't WOF...."..just like others do when saying someone else isn't American because their experience of America differs from their own sub-culture.
What is interesting is considering how many of those who were considered founders saw the ones they worked alongside as also helping in the beginnings of the WOF movement. In example, it is interesting seeing how Kenneth Hagin preached at 5 AOG's for about 12 years - with the framework from the AOG giving the platform for Hagin to develop his views. And for those liking T.L Osborn, it is interesting that R.W. Schambach was an AOG Pentecostal AND he preached at AoG churches - with him working alongside T.L. Osborn and spending many years holding tent revivals and healing services in various cities and them being seen as a team - JOINTLY spreading the messages that were a part of WOF (in the same way others like Paul and Barnabas or Paul and Silas or John and Peter were seen as duo teams for the Gospel). Thus, it can be odd whenever others seem to assume it has to be only ONE person who gets credit for all things - and even more odd whenever the movements preceding them that shaped them are ignored as if they came up with things entirely on their own.
And although I've disagreed a number of times with the individual, one of my friends from CARM (who grew up in the WOF Movement and Rhema) did do a pretty good job of summarizing a lot of the differing ways that things evolved in the WOF Movement. In his words:
All things considered, I did feel the summary was a noteworthy one - but where you're coming from can make the difference in whether you feel something is good....or choose to hate it. Again, I had family who grew up extensively within the movement. Had a friend YEARS ago go to Rhema Bible school and another I worked with who graduated from Rhema and knew T.L Osborn.
They differed greatly just as Evangelical colleges may have certain things taught - and yet not all look alike or teach the same/cover the same at all points. Of course, when it comes to larger events surrounding things like culture (i.e. Socieoeconomic background, middle class vs lower class, ethnicity, political leanings, etc.), that will always make a difference - and it will always be an issue when seeing how others (such as those in WOF from an Hispanic or Asian background) will not see things the same as those involved in white culture in dominant state.
The differences seem to extend even to eschatological views. In example, not all in WOF have ever accepted the Rapture view - and while some teach it, others have a POST-TRibulation viewpoint. Some WOF Churches believe that others will be saved during the 1,000yr reign of Christ while others believe no such thing will occur. Some teach children will be born during the time of Christ's return while others do not - and camps evolve as well, just as the way Baptists or Methodists look today is nowhere near the same as it used to be 100yrs ago.
Even within Church history, we see this plainly. It is common for the persecuted to become persecutors once they become the majority or a part of the accepted orthodoxy of the majority. The lineage of groups that are currently regarded as "cults" (using the word in its negative colloquial sense) is easily traceable to various denominations. For example, Jehovah's witnesses drew their theological foundations from Adventism and Presbyterianism. They also received their bible (initially the KJV and then later the ASV and finally the NWT) from Protestantism's 66 book bible. Christadelphians and Oneness Pentecostals also have their roots in denominations that are generally counted as within Protestant orthodoxy.
But how one can understand things to be in the present state of a group will always be connected in seeing their evolution - and knowing the ways that others within a group can even have differences between themselves. And this is a big deal, IMHO, when it comes to the world of WOF. Certain variations of WOF may be more closely connected to certain camps than others - even though we sharply disagree on others when we diverge. A strain within the Faith Movement that leans more so toward what's found in Third Wave circles or Neo-Charismatic circles isn't going to line up with other strains that went more so toward those camps in the extremes of Prosperity Theology - even though both camps have roots within much of what American culture focuses on with economic development and is connected to that
That said, the purpose of this thread is for others to share where they feel others are either NOT FOUNDERS or ARE FOUNDERS. Here are rules I ask for others to respect before joining:
Again, the entire purpose of this thread is historical review - both showing where others interlock and where others feel people left, like roots on a tree. If you feel there are any charts available that explain the evolution of the WOF movement, by all means share
Concerning why I made this thread (in light of what was stated elsewhere on founders - including people like William Seymour), I was writing due to seeing if others here would be willing to address the subject of who is - or isn't - foundational to the world of WOF. I ask this due to how it has been brought up a number of times that the only founders in the WOF Movement are those such as Capps, Hagin and Copeland.
Moreover, it has been said by others that those NOT listening solely to those groups are not really seeing what the Faith Movement is about. However, growing up, I was a part of the Faith Movement that did not emphasize those individuals solely. I grew up with others such as T.L Osborn and Creflo Dollar. I also grew up with people like Lester Sumrall (with others under him such as Pastor Jason Kerr of Global Force Ministries....we're actually friends since he came to our youth camps as well as working with Paul and Jan Crouch and Jessie Duplantis and being on TBN on a number of occassions
And for others, they did ecumenical work with a number of differing groups simply by virture of the reality of Network T.V/Media - as TBN was the main place for many in the Faith Movement to share their views and they did so in unison with other ministers who may have disagreed with them on a couple of issues. Many were involved in working with differing fields OUTSIDE of WOF....and sadly, when an opinion is given by others supporting certain camps of WOF, people automatically caricature in thinking "Well, they aren't WOF...."..just like others do when saying someone else isn't American because their experience of America differs from their own sub-culture.
What is interesting is considering how many of those who were considered founders saw the ones they worked alongside as also helping in the beginnings of the WOF movement. In example, it is interesting seeing how Kenneth Hagin preached at 5 AOG's for about 12 years - with the framework from the AOG giving the platform for Hagin to develop his views. And for those liking T.L Osborn, it is interesting that R.W. Schambach was an AOG Pentecostal AND he preached at AoG churches - with him working alongside T.L. Osborn and spending many years holding tent revivals and healing services in various cities and them being seen as a team - JOINTLY spreading the messages that were a part of WOF (in the same way others like Paul and Barnabas or Paul and Silas or John and Peter were seen as duo teams for the Gospel). Thus, it can be odd whenever others seem to assume it has to be only ONE person who gets credit for all things - and even more odd whenever the movements preceding them that shaped them are ignored as if they came up with things entirely on their own.
And although I've disagreed a number of times with the individual, one of my friends from CARM (who grew up in the WOF Movement and Rhema) did do a pretty good job of summarizing a lot of the differing ways that things evolved in the WOF Movement. In his words:
All things considered, I did feel the summary was a noteworthy one - but where you're coming from can make the difference in whether you feel something is good....or choose to hate it. Again, I had family who grew up extensively within the movement. Had a friend YEARS ago go to Rhema Bible school and another I worked with who graduated from Rhema and knew T.L Osborn.
They differed greatly just as Evangelical colleges may have certain things taught - and yet not all look alike or teach the same/cover the same at all points. Of course, when it comes to larger events surrounding things like culture (i.e. Socieoeconomic background, middle class vs lower class, ethnicity, political leanings, etc.), that will always make a difference - and it will always be an issue when seeing how others (such as those in WOF from an Hispanic or Asian background) will not see things the same as those involved in white culture in dominant state.
The differences seem to extend even to eschatological views. In example, not all in WOF have ever accepted the Rapture view - and while some teach it, others have a POST-TRibulation viewpoint. Some WOF Churches believe that others will be saved during the 1,000yr reign of Christ while others believe no such thing will occur. Some teach children will be born during the time of Christ's return while others do not - and camps evolve as well, just as the way Baptists or Methodists look today is nowhere near the same as it used to be 100yrs ago.
Even within Church history, we see this plainly. It is common for the persecuted to become persecutors once they become the majority or a part of the accepted orthodoxy of the majority. The lineage of groups that are currently regarded as "cults" (using the word in its negative colloquial sense) is easily traceable to various denominations. For example, Jehovah's witnesses drew their theological foundations from Adventism and Presbyterianism. They also received their bible (initially the KJV and then later the ASV and finally the NWT) from Protestantism's 66 book bible. Christadelphians and Oneness Pentecostals also have their roots in denominations that are generally counted as within Protestant orthodoxy.
But how one can understand things to be in the present state of a group will always be connected in seeing their evolution - and knowing the ways that others within a group can even have differences between themselves. And this is a big deal, IMHO, when it comes to the world of WOF. Certain variations of WOF may be more closely connected to certain camps than others - even though we sharply disagree on others when we diverge. A strain within the Faith Movement that leans more so toward what's found in Third Wave circles or Neo-Charismatic circles isn't going to line up with other strains that went more so toward those camps in the extremes of Prosperity Theology - even though both camps have roots within much of what American culture focuses on with economic development and is connected to that
That said, the purpose of this thread is for others to share where they feel others are either NOT FOUNDERS or ARE FOUNDERS. Here are rules I ask for others to respect before joining:
- Do not simply say someone is a founder or isn't. Please give evidence showing (in quotes) where others claimed themselves to be a founder of WOF
- Show historically why someone considered themselves a founder
- If you disagree with someone, please be respectful and do not go into the realm of fighting.
Again, the entire purpose of this thread is historical review - both showing where others interlock and where others feel people left, like roots on a tree. If you feel there are any charts available that explain the evolution of the WOF movement, by all means share
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