Fossil Record Observation

[lasthero]

Firstlysmall fish are in the fossil record in abundance. [why the flood waters are rising, small fish get trapped in the tidal ebb and flow], second the dinosaurs go extinct [the larger animals are dying off due to rising flood waters]

This is a common misconception - not all dinosaurs were big. In fact, some of them were smaller than a chicken, like compsognathus. Yet they all went extinct with the bigger ones.

but not the Dino birds (avian's) [why? they can fly, for a while, or move quicker to higher ground

I assume you mean pterosaurs, which weren't actually dinosaurs. They were expert flyers, and might have even better at it than birds.

At the same time the large sea creature go extinct, the air breathing ones latter [air breathing animals can stay on the surface longer (at low tide) they remain alive, but their larger non air breathing cousins perish].

There were plenty of sea-going reptiles that breath air, but they died earlier than things like whales and dolphins.

Then we have the gradual change from small animals to the larger ones we see today. Explained by the drowning of infant animals, before their stronger parents. Note ALL modern day animals [at the top of the fossil record] can swim.

This is untrue. Ants, for instance, can't swim. In fact, I don't think any insects are capable of swimming.

Correction: Some insects are capable of swimming. Not all of them, though.

Humans: why are there no human babies in the lower level, their parents would have carried them to higher ground,

Why aren't all egg fossils on the bottom layers?

We also see sharks as one of the last fossil types, why?

Sharks have been around for a long time, and you can find them pretty deep in the fossil record. They weren't the last of anything.

 

[lasthero]

You have entirely missed my point I am talking post flood. When the animals came out of the ark. Frozen areas to the North would preserve food sources... Like putting your meat in the freezer does. I am saying for a time after the flood Carnivora would have migrated north, to get food.

Do you have any evidence of this migration?

 

[lasthero]

FaH, I see many, many problems with what you're proposing here.

-Fossil eggs, for instance. We only find fossil eggs in the layers of the animals of they belong to. We've found whole nests. If what you say is true, and the geologic layers aren't ordered chronologically, we shouldn't expect this to happen so consistently, but it does.

-Artifacts. You only find things that belong to humans - spears, pottery, et cetera - in layers after humans show up. You said that we don't find human infants in lower levels because all the parents carried their babies, but that wouldn't account for the junk humans would've left behind.

-It absolutely doesn't take into account things like plants and immobile organisms like coral reefs. For instance, grass, which can be found all over the earth today, only appears after a certain point in the fossil record. Coral reefs are much the same story, and on top of that, a global flood should've killed just about every coral reef in the world - they only grow under very specific conditions, and any disruption of this can be fatal. Yet we have evidence of coral reefs growing for many thousands of years before young-earth creationists believe the world was formed.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/coralreefs.htm

-I'd also like to point out that animals such a slothes, not exactly known for being the most moble of creatures, are always found above dinosaurs in the fossil record. The same would go for the animals like blind mole rats, which live underground and can't even see, but are always found above animals like dinosaurs. In a flood, why would flying animals like pterosaurs die out before a species of burrowing rodent which is LITERALLY BLIND?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Best part about this stuff is how believers in fossil study who think we are a bazillion years old think their views are correct because its what science says. Science says alot of things but it doesn't mean its true. And through history science has always changed its mind on things. 100 years from now I'm sure some of what we know today will be considered wrong. In other words man makes a machine to tell the age of fossils. This machine is built by man, designed by man, programmed by man. How can we say its accurate? What do we have to compare its results too? We have nothing. Its just guessing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Best part about this stuff is how believers in fossil study who think we are a bazillion years old think their views are correct because its what science says. Science says alot of things but it doesn't mean its true. And through history science has always changed its mind on things. 100 years from now I'm sure some of what we know today will be considered wrong. In other words man makes a machine to tell the age of fossils. This machine is built by man, designed by man, programmed by man. How can we say its accurate? What do we have to compare its results too? We have nothing. Its just guessing.

Wrong, it is because we can explain how we know this through science. We don't accept something just because "science says it". Actually "science" does not say anything. The scientific method is merely a way of solving problems. It is an extremely reliable one.

Also you need to look a the pattern of change in science. The changes keep getting smaller and smaller as we zero in on the right answer. Your Bible's one largest flaw is that there is no way to correct the countless flaws that we see in it.

 

[lasthero]

Best part about this stuff is how believers in fossil study who think we are a bazillion years old think their views are correct because its what science says. Science says alot of things but it doesn't mean its true. And through history science has always changed its mind on things. 100 years from now I'm sure some of what we know today will be considered wrong. In other words man makes a machine to tell the age of fossils. This machine is built by man, designed by man, programmed by man. How can we say its accurate? What do we have to compare its results too? We have nothing. Its just guessing.

It's not just guessing.

If dating methods are inaccurate, please, explain this graph.

What you're looking at here is a measurement of plate movement by two independent sources. One is by satelitte data, the other is by simply measuring the age of rocks and doing some calculations. If dating techniques don't work, there's no reason. these two methods should agree with each other and come to the same conclusion - but they do. The dating doesn't just show that the rocks are old, but they're as old as they should be if the plates were moving at a steady rate, and have been doing so thousand and thousands of years.

How do you explain that?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

This is a common misconception - not all dinosaurs were big. In fact, some of them were smaller than a chicken, like compsognathus. Yet they all went extinct with the bigger ones.

This is to be expected, it is not all about size it is their swimming ability that matters. The model I am testing is a gradual rise model. If the waters were too fast or too high initially you would expect a mix of creatures but not in a slow rising model.

I assume you mean pterosaurs, which weren't actually dinosaurs. They were expert flyers, and might have even better at it than birds.

Might be good flyers, maybe, but according to evolution, most of these species we gaining flight ability or flightless. Which means they probably were poor flyers.

There were plenty of sea-going reptiles that breath air, but they died earlier than things like whales and dolphins.

In a slow rising model, you expect this, whales and dolphins are too big to come in early. And not being meat eaters are unlikely to venture into the mess of dying and predatory life. Air breath ability is just one possible survival mechanism in a slow rising possible tidal system.

This is untrue. Ants, for instance, can't swim. In fact, I don't think any insects are capable of swimming.

Correction: Some insects are capable of swimming. Not all of them, though.

Yet they are light enough to float.

Why aren't all egg fossils on the bottom layers?

According to evolution the early animals were egg layers. This may be believed in part due to the large number of eggs in the record. But I would need to investigate farther like what is the probability of an egg fossilising.

Sharks have been around for a long time, and you can find them pretty deep in the fossil record. They weren't the last of anything.

I agree, they are strongly represented throughout. But if you look at an evolutionary time scale the last final appearing species was a shark.

 

[lasthero]

This is to be expected, it is not all about size it is their swimming ability that matters. The model I am testing is a gradual rise model. If the waters were too fast or too high initially you would expect a mix of creatures but not in a slow rising model.

You seemed to be dealing with size before.




[quoteE]
Might be good flyers, maybe, but according to evolution, most of these species we gaining flight ability or flightless. Which means they probably were poor flyers.[/quotE]

Evolution states no such thing. Pterosaurs were capable of full flight at the time.

You do realize that pterosaurs aren't dinosaurs, don't you?

In a slow rising model, you expect this, whales and dolphins are too big to come in early. And not being meat eaters are unlikely to venture into the mess of dying and predatory life. Air breath ability is just one possible survival mechanism in a slow rising possible tidal system.

Killer whales eat meat, as do most Dolphins. Many pleisiosaurs had similar diets, but still died before Dolphins.

Yet they are light enough to float.

Yet you can find insects throughout the geologic column.

According to evolution the early animals were egg layers. This may be believed in part due to the large number of eggs in the record. But I would need to investigate farther like what is the probability of an egg fossilizing.

Fairly high. Fossil eggs are fairly common.

I agree, they are strongly represented throughout. But if you look at an evolutionary time scale the last final appearing species was a shark.

Last final appearing species? Not sure what you mean, here.

 

[lasthero]

Some more thoughts for you, FaH.

- flightless birds - ostriches, emus, penguins - Only appear in the fossil record after flying birds do. How did flightless birds survive longer than flying species?

- these are itchyosaurs.

You might note that they look quite a bit like dolphins. They're not. They're reptiles. Despite looking like dolphins and having a similar diet and being roughly the same size, they died out long before Dolphins did.

- what you said about fish in the bottom layers isn't quite true. Only certain fish show down there, and they're quite different than modern ones. Notably, the lowest fish are jawless. Why is that so in your model?

 

[Nithavela]

Didn't think I'd see this particular kind of failure trotted out again. You're making me nostalgic

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Evolution states no such thing. Pterosaurs were capable of full flight at the time.

I would be interested to know which birds at this time could fly. We do see that avian dinosaurs survived longer than their land dwelling counterparts. Suggesting they could fly above the water for a time.

Killer whales eat meat, as do most Dolphins. Many pleisiosaurs had similar diets, but still died before Dolphins.

I will do some investigating of the traits of these animals to see possible reasons. One reason that was mentioned earlier is killer whales are more commonly found in arctic waters, so are less likely to be found in tropical region. As for Dolphins they may not have wanted to venture into the dirty shark and predictor infested waters.

Yet you can find insects throughout the geologic column.

This is not really a problem for this model.

Last final appearing species? Not sure what you mean, here.

I was reading up on the fossil record. Seeing if it fitted my thoughts and the last fish species to appear in the record were a type of shark.

 

[lasthero]

I would be interested to know which birds at this time could fly.

Pterosaurs aren't birds.

We do see that avian dinosaurs survived longer than their land dwelling counterparts. Suggesting they could fly above the water for a time.

Pterosaur aren't dinosaurs. They were fully capable of flight, yet they died along with dinosaurs.

I will do some investigating of the traits of these animals to see possible reasons. One reason that was mentioned earlier is killer whales are more commonly found in arctic waters, so are less likely to be found in tropical region. As for Dolphins they may not have wanted to venture into the dirty shark and predictor infested waters.

Okay, first, it's 'predator'. I wouldn't normally harp on spelling, but this is the second time you've done that, which leads me to believe you think it's spelled that way.

Second, Dolphins are found all over the place. They don't have any problem with 'dirty water'.

This is not really a problem for this model.

...why not? You seem to indicate that insects float, but that doesn't explain their placement through fossil record.

I was reading up on the fossil record. Seeing if it fitted my thoughts and the last fish species to appear in the record were a type of shark.

Where did you read this?

Why

 

[Cearbhall]

However being a strong believer in creation I could not accept blindly that this was evidence for evolution.

This sentence...does not compute.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I would be interested to know which birds at this time could fly. We do see that avian dinosaurs survived longer than their land dwelling counterparts. Suggesting they could fly above the water for a time.

Yes the avian dinosaurs are still alive today. But you can't accept evolution and your model, we can get into that later. You already know that there are no "marks" left by your flood, right?

I will do some investigating of the traits of these animals to see possible reasons. One reason that was mentioned earlier is killer whales are more commonly found in arctic waters, so are less likely to be found in tropical region. As for Dolphins they may not have wanted to venture into the dirty shark and predictor infested waters.

Unguided reading is not really "research" Killer whales are found almost everywhere:

Bottlenose dolphins don't seem to like excessively cold water:

I was reading up on the fossil record. Seeing if it fitted my thoughts and the last fish species to appear in the record were a type of shark.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that no flood model can explain the sorting of fossils. Especially when you get to the sorting of microscopic index fossils.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This sentence...does not compute.

It was an admission that reality would be rejected if it went against his belief in his myth.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Some more thoughts for you, FaH.

- flightless birds - ostriches, emus, penguins - Only appear in the fossil record after flying birds do. How did flightless birds survive longer than flying species?

Hi I am replying to your questions one at a time as I need to go and look up the fossil record. I have been looking up intermediate species but can not find them. Which flying species came before the emu as an example. I do believe that the avian dinosaurs came before but my belief is as follows. Many of the avian dinosaurs were quite large, and may possibly had trouble flying for long time periods. Penguins as an example are excellent swimmers, emus etc can swim. If the avian dinosaurs did indeed have trouble flying for long time periods, it would account for their death before the swimming flightless birds.

 

[lasthero]

Hi I am replying to your questions one at a time as I need to go and look up the fossil record. I have been looking up intermediate species but can not find them.

Probably because 'intermediate species' isn't a term scientists use. Do you mean transitional fossils?

Which flying species came before the emu as an example. I do believe that the avian dinosaurs came before but my belief is as follows. Many of the avian dinosaurs were quite large, and may possibly had trouble flying for long time periods.

What avian dinosaurs are you talking about? It sounds more like you're describing pterosaurs, but as I keep saying, pterosaurs weren't dinosaurs, nor did modern birds descend from them.

Penguins as an example are excellent swimmers, emus etc can swim.

Yes, emus can swim. However, pterosaurs can FLY, so in a flood scenario, why would emus be above them?

[quot]If the avian dinosaurs did indeed have trouble flying for long time periods, it would account for their death before the swimming flightless birds.[/QUOTE]

Okay. This is a pterosaur.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosaur

They are not dinosaurs. While we can't know for sure how good they were at flying, judging from the way thier bodies are made, its reasonable to infer they were quite good at it. Maybe even better than birds.

However, they died along with dinosaurs. Dodos, emus, and ostriches all only appear AFTER them. Even animals that can't see, like blind mole rats, only appear AFTER them. So how does a creature that can fly wind up dying faster than a creature on land?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Pterosaurs aren't birds.




Pterosaur aren't dinosaurs. They were fully capable of flight, yet they died along with dinosaurs.

I went away and read up on the anatomy of the pterosaur https://pterosaur.net/flight.php and it seems due to thier size and wing span they need to use all four limbs to take flight. It is highly likely in a sediment filled flood water it would be unable to take off. It needs to forcefully push down in a springboard action to start flight. In muddy flood waters it would not be able to do this.

Where did you read this?

Why

Hmmm went back to try to find it ... But could not ... It might have been some general order picture

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Do you have any evidence of this migration?

There would be none in terms of fossils etc. it is after the flood. But a point to note is we do see big cats and canines in tundra regions.

 

[lasthero]

It is highly likely in a sediment filled flood water it would be unable to take off.

Assuming that all pterosaurs started o the ground when it began raining - which sounds like a stupid thing to assume, but okay - on what do you base the likelihood that pterosaurs would have trouble jumping in slightly muddy water? Any tests? Any data? Anything at all?

Because, frankly, it comes off like you're just grasping at straws.