Foru.ms - a new beginning and a fresh start (2)

stumpjumper · Aug 19, 2007

bill16652 said:
I have nothing personally against you or the debate other than the location. That may be an underlying cause, I dont know but I do know that there are motivations here of which I am not aware and not just on Erwins part. Why was this poll started? Who decided that 50 people could make a decision that so many are unhappy with? Why was it made without all the rhetoric and some reasons that make sense. And thats just a few of them

As to your questions, I don't know.

If you ask me, the name change was a poorly thought out decision but I tend to think the blame pretty much lies with Erwin and perhaps some loud objections from the Conservative Christian sub-forum...

Time2BCounted · Aug 19, 2007

stumpjumper said:
The main reason behind DrSteveJ's thread petitioning to change the name was that Erwin removed the Nicene Creed as the criteria for who can and can not be called Christian.

In a subconscious way it was what made General Theology so contentious. The Christians who made the cut, so to speak, then took that exclusive mindset further and attempted to determine whose theology really was Christian, the most accurate, or the "One True Church" TM....

And this is a bad thing?

Are we not to correct doctrine?

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Timothy 6

3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1 John

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee

Care for more?

Garnet2727 · Aug 19, 2007

*subscribing*

Time2BCounted · Aug 19, 2007

Thank you very much ERWIN... You are removing the CHRISTIAN influance here and getting your fill of atheistic subscribers... GREAT new vision from Satan's point of view

stumpjumper · Aug 19, 2007

Time2BCounted said:
Are we not to correct doctrine?

You can correct doctrine all you want but holding incorrect doctrine or theology does not make one a non-Christian.

I would almost guarantee that no two Christians agree on everything when it comes to theology. Yet, Calvinists and Arminianists, Lutherans and Catholics, Messianic Jews and covanental Christians, etc, etc, are all still Christian.

In fact, I would say that if theology really is that important, holding dogmatically only to the lowest common denominator like the Nicene Creed is probably not the best way to go

Garnet2727 · Aug 19, 2007

Time2BCounted said:
Of course you are, youre an atheist and standing for the downfall of a CHRISTIAN board

Very funny. And ironic given that the voices that clamored for the removal of the name Christian Forums were in fact Christians, not atheists.

stumpjumper · Aug 19, 2007

Time2BCounted said:
Thank you very much ERWIN... You are removing the CHRISTIAN influance here and getting your fill of atheistic subscribers... GREAT new vision from Satan's point of view

You didn't subscribe to the weekly "Evil Atheist Conspiracy" newsletter?

I have a subscription, even though I'm a True Christian TM, and I knew about this change a week ago.

*I think they have their reporters practice astrology or something*

Scholar in training · Aug 19, 2007

stumpjumper said:
Where did Christ, ever, turn away a follower based upon his/her beliefs?

The money changers? Actions.

The Pharisees? Actions.

And he did not turn them away but exhort them to repent.

The Pharisees didn't believe who Jesus was and their actions were an outworking of that belief. If they believed Jesus like the Centurion did, or even the bumbling disciples did - well, the Gospels would have ended differently.

Calling the Pharisees "broods of vipers" is turning them away, maybe shaming them into repentance (which of course they didn't accept). Jesus exhorted some individuals, but he rebuked others.

In regards to theological statements, who had the "greatest faith in all of Israel"?

*hint*: Centurions were not Jewish as they were pagan Roman soldiers...

Did not Jesus tell the rich young ruler to pick up your cross and follow me?

When did he ask the rich young ruler about hypostatic unions or single versus double procession?

Jesus didn't say anything about an old earth or even about more practical matters like church protocol for that matter. Bishops are a post-Jesus invention!

Even the 12 disciples were reluctant to come to conclusions about who Jesus was and what he would do - they frequently misunderstood him, and coming from a monotheistic background, it would be hard to accept what Jesus said. But the point is, after and because of the resurrection, they decisively came to conclusions about Jesus. What did they proclaim afterwards? Not to "follow Jesus" but that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and the risen one, therefore follow him.

You cannot follow Jesus if you have not heard of him, yes. But you can follow him even if you disagree with other followers about some of the details...

The central details are not just some details.

Garnet2727 · Aug 19, 2007

stumpjumper said:
You didn't subscribe to the weekly "Evil Atheist Conspiracy" newsletter?

I have a subscription, even though I'm a True Christian TM, and I knew about this change a week ago.

*I think they have their reporters practice astrology or something*

Hush you. Giving away secrets may result in the revocation of your membership.

*rustles her wings and looks all stern and stuff*

Nadiine · Aug 19, 2007

Time2BCounted said:
Of course you are, youre an atheist and standing for the downfall of a CHRISTIAN board

SMART MAN!!!

As if seeing Atheists who support this change is a big shocker.

silentpoet · Aug 19, 2007

what I want to see:
1. Return to the right and proper name of this forum.
2. Return of the Nicean Creed as a a determination of who is Christian. Not to say others cannot post and debate here, but there has to be a line somewhere to make certain areas Christian or Open. And the Nicean Creed is pretty basic.
3. An apology and possibly refunds to those who have recently supported the website. That is if there is not a change.

Notice I do not care about the physical layout of the site.

I do not and cannot in good conscience support this new vision. I am still here at the moment because I am hopeful for repentance and change. But I am not going to invest much of my time if it cannot be saved. And I surely am not going to give any money.

stumpjumper · Aug 19, 2007

Scholar in training said:
The Pharisees didn't believe who Jesus was and their actions were an outworking of that belief.

Interesting spin but you have a cause and effect issue here.

The self-righteous mindset and exclusionary actions of the Pharisees was what Jesus critiqued not their beliefs.

Sure, they didn't believe him but that was because it was against their self-interest to do so.

Regardless, their actions pre-ceded the incarnation..

Who was excluded from Jesus' table?

Who did Jesus say our neighbors happen to be?

Jesus didn't say anything about an old earth or even about more practical matters like church protocol for that matter. Bishops are a post-Jesus invention!

Sure.

But why do you think that is?

Why do you think dogmatic theological statements or beliefs were not among the more important aspects of Jesus' teachings?

Even the 12 disciples were reluctant to come to conclusions about who Jesus was and what he would do - they frequently misunderstood him, and coming from a monotheistic background, it would be hard to accept what Jesus said. But the point is, after and because of the resurrection, they decisively came to conclusions about Jesus. What did they proclaim afterwards? Not to "follow Jesus" but that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and the risen one, therefore follow him.

Well sure but they believed, as do I, that those statements were true.

They did not, however, say that you cannot follow him if you disagree about certain theological statements.

In fact, Paul had something to say about following Jesus and worshipping God even if that fact is "Unknown" to those who do so....

The central details are not just some details.

Central to whom?

Let's get back to perspective here shall we.

What is central to a Catholic is different from what is central to a Protestant fundamentalist as well as different from what is essential to an EO.

Most EOs consider all Western Christians heretics because a simple sub-sentence that states "and the son" was added to a certain creed many years ago...

Brennin · Aug 19, 2007

Garnet2727 said:
Very funny. And ironic given that the voices that clamored for the removal of the name Christian Forums were in fact Christians, not atheists.

Garnet is right, but we shouldn't let facts get in the way of histrionic posts.

stumpjumper · Aug 19, 2007

Nadiine said:
SMART MAN!!!

As if seeing Atheists who support this change is a big shocker.

Again.

Let's leave atheists out of this.

It was conservative Christians who petitioned for this change as evidenced here:
http://foru.ms/t5757523-should-chri...itleshould-cf-be-renamed-with-new-vision.html

Garnet2727 · Aug 19, 2007

Nadiine said:
SMART MAN!!!

As if seeing Atheists who support this change is a big shocker.

Excuse me? Where did I ever say that I support the name change?

JoshuaM · Aug 19, 2007

to me it seems either the second poll was completely ignored, or Erwin made his "middle ground" one of Universalism and de-emphasis on Christ. taking verses out of context about becoming a Christian and exhibiting fruits of the Holy Spirit.

1. To establish and grow a self-governing community that is open to everyone guided by rules driven by Christian principles which are collaboratively agreed upon by all members, keeping in mind:Gal 5:22-23 GNT But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these.

making all gods and people equal to God is not faithfulness, neither is love. it is compromise. compromise against the Lord.

2. To provide a meeting place for Christians to fellowship with one another and outreach to non-Christians, keeping in mind:

Click to expand...

2 Cor 5:17-18 GNT Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come. All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.

this verse is about becoming a Christian, making Jesus our Lord and Savior and following Him. This is not a verse about declaring muslims, buddhists, pantheists, athiests, LDS, every person who says they are Christian (despite what the Bible teaches about what a Christian is) a Christian. Christianity is not a slogan.

Revelation says not to add to that book of prophecy. LDS teaches Jesus went from Patmos to America and showed a new Revelation (the book of Mormon). This is contradictory to Revelation's end. The Bible teaches us there can be no other gods before God. and the Old Testament and New Testament say to worship only the Lord God, not worship Buddha, Allah (which despite it means God, is a god that will declare that anybody that does not become Muslim must be killed), and Athiests do not even worship a god, nor believe in one. They cannot be a follower of Christ this way. Christ is about uniting people in Him, not accepting all religions as one.

Erwin totally takes those verses out of context and has ignored Christian input from my perception. Real Christian input. He has embraced Unitarian Universalism from how it looks to me, and denied Christ.

PS it is clear that the original petition for a name change was because he thought the site was misrepresenting Christ. Erwin is promoting an idea that de-emphasizing Christ promotes Christ more

Brennin · Aug 19, 2007

silentpoet said:
1. Return to the right and proper name of this forum.

Yes.

2. Return of the Nicean Creed as a a determination of who is Christian.

No.

joebudda · Aug 19, 2007

Nadiine said:
SMART MAN!!!

As if seeing Atheists who support this change is a big shocker.

Any desire toward a common goal of unity I support.

stumpjumper · Aug 19, 2007

A message from Seebs:

[bible]Romans 8:38-39[/bible]

Friends, siblings, neighbors, fellow creatures:

Perfect love casts out fear.

Have a little faith.

Brennin · Aug 19, 2007

Garnet2727 said:
Excuse me? Where did I ever say that I support the name change?

Come on now. We know you are in league with Erwin the crypto-Scientologist in his war against Christianity.

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