if God judges someone by their sins, then their sins have not been forgiven.
Except Scripture speaks simultaneously of our full forgiveness of our sins and Christ's work of total satisfaction through His obedience as well as our having to stand and give an answer to all our works on the Day of Judgment.
These are simultaneously true statements.
Our sins are forgiven.
And we will be judged on the Last Day.
The key, here, is that
in Christ we pass through Judgment to life.
I don't understand how you can condemn someone over a forgiven sin. That's not forgiveness by definition.
Let's imagine a scenario: You are being locked up in a dungeon behind a heavy iron door. Someone comes, with the key, unlocks the door and says, "Your crimes are pardoned, you are free to go." You, however, do not believe them. So you remain in that dungeon cell, and in that dungeon you wither, starve, and die.
Why did you wither and die in the dungeon? Who was responsible for it?
If Christ has made satisfaction for all by His death, and tasted death for all men, and if "just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for everyone, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for everyone", then it's not a lack in the all-comprehensive atoning work of Christ--as though Christ only died for some but not others--that is the reason for Hell.
Christ has the Keys. And Christ has come, proclaiming liberty to the captive, to set prisoners free, to declare the Year of God's Jubilee toward all.
If the prison door is unlocked, but the prisoner, in his or her unbelief, remains secluded in the prison and dies--it is not the failure of the One who frees the prisoners, it falls squarely and exclusively on the one who chooses to remain secluded and to rot in the prison.
Christ defeated sin, death, hell, and the devil. "
It is finished" It has been accomplished--for you, for me, for the whole world.
So why, then, are there those who will perish in their unbelief? Because of their unbelief, because they are the architects of their own punishment, because the gates of hell--as C.S. Lewis put it--are locked from the
inside.
as for the other post regarding an almost Calvinist/Arminian argument... well the bible says God chose us, and Romans 9...
Yes, God chose us. That's Election. I was pretty clear in my affirmation of Election.
My rejection is of Limited Atonement. And, as far as I'm concerned, Calvinism and Arminianism are simply two sides of the same coin when it comes to this subject; both deny the universality of the Cross.
So you have, God wants all to repent and none to be condemned, but some (most in fact) are condemned, and none can choose God unless God chooses them. so why are some created for life and others for destruction? Why are some chosen and why not others.
Cur alii, alii non? Why some, not others? That's the Crux Theologorum. As I mentioned.
However, let's be clear:
No one was created for destruction.
If you are going to read Romans 9, keep reading. You can't stop reading until you get to Romans 11:32.
about the best that can be done is to think God chose who He knew would ultimately choose Him, and passed over those who would never choose Him, true.
No. That's Double Predistination. And I reject it wholesale, it is anti-Gospel. That isn't the answer to the Crux Theologorum, that's simply a denial of plain, explicit Scripture. Christ died for everyone. Period. Full stop.
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He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2
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But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9
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For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, especially those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10
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The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9
I reject the "Irresistible Grace" because if God truly would choose everyone and grace was irresistible.. then everyone would be saved, but we know that's not true.
I do not believe in the Irresistable Grace of TULIP.
I do, however, believe in this paradox: The irresistible grace is, nevertheless, resisted. It was irresistible grace that gave you faith; and yet without faith you would resist it; just as all who remain in unbelief resist God's grace when they hear and reject the Holy Gospel. Indeed, even the Elect, having come to faith by the power of God's grace, have fallen away, making shipwreck of their faith.
If the Elect can fall away (and they can, Scripture clearly teaches this), though they have received the indelible mark and seal of their faith by the power of the Holy Spirit; then it is abundantly obvious that those who do not believe resist the irresistible grace of God which is found in the Gospel.
That is one of many paradoxes we simply have to live with if we want to take the Bible seriously.
In that case, someone like Pharaoh who never would have chosen God, is not chosen by God for grace, and instead of giving him Grace, God hardens his heart instead. Instead, God uses Pharaoh as a display of His wrath.
So yes, in that case, God is actively doing something in Pharaoh's condemnation. He is not just passively letting Pharaoh condemn himself, but actively condemning Pharaoh.
I would again remind you that if you are going to use Romans 9, don't stop reading until you get to Romans 11:32. Romans 9 only makes sense in the context of everything between Romans 1 and Romans 11.
When Job was afflicted, Job attributed his suffering to God. He did not understand why God was making him suffer, but knew God ultimately was the one who was cause for this suffering, and did not curse God for it, he cursed himself. What God had ordained Satan do to Job, might be considered cruel. But it is of paramount importance to understand that while it may seem cruel to us, God was right to do it.
At the end, after Job had been tested and tried, what happened? Did Job remain in a state of suffering, or did Job die and go to Hell? Neither of these is true. Job probably isn't a good example of what you are trying to say. For Job lived to the end of his days having received tenfold of what he had previously.
God also ordained that Joshua commit genocide. To us that seems cruel, but, long point of view.. because Joshua did not fulfill it, these people groups were a pain in the side for Israel up until this day. So God was right to ordain that, and Joshua was wrong not to actually do it, and to make treaties and leagues with the people.
This is beside the point: But are you implying a connection between modern-day Palestinians with ancient Canaanites?
That aside, I want to remind you of the story of Ruth. I also want to remind you of Romans 11:32.
When Jesus returns He will tread the winepress of His wrath, and slaughter so many people that his clothes will be stained in their blood. Again it might seem cruel... but God is absolutely right to do it.
Isaiah 45
So ultimately.. yes, I believe that God takes active role in condemning people to a place of eternal torture, that He created.... and we have to accept that He is right to do so.
I do get it though there's a lot of people who are uncomfortable with God having wrath, with God creating a place of torture, like they, including myself at times, think it even unfair that a temporal sin has eternal punishment. But He is God, we are not, we are wrong, He is right. There's a good reason for it, even if we don't understand it.
I don't have discomfort with God's wrath. I have no qualms about speaking of the wrath of God. Of course, when I speak of God's wrath I don't mean what you apparently mean.
I'm also not "uncomfortable" with your opinion about God's wrath--I simply do not accept your perspectives. I think it is an attempt to re-interpret God through the lens of sinful fallen man; rather than confessing God as He reveals Himself through the Incarnate Person of Jesus Christ. Theologically speaking, it's a conflation of the Deus Absconditus and the Deus Revelatus. It's the fire and smoke and thunder from Mt. Sinai without the flesh and blood and suffering of Jesus Christ.
-CryptoLutheran
