forgiving "even as God" . . . Ephesians 4:31-32 . . .

[com7fy8]

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, Jesus wants us to forgive each other, "even as God" has forgiven us.

One thing I see is that we can not forgive like God does, unless we are together with God in His love so we are so sharing with Him in us having us forgive the way He does.

So, among other things, this commandment is meant to get us into such intimate and personal and sweet and caring sharing with God Himself.

So, it does not mean only a legalistic way of forgiving, in which we only say we forgive someone so we can tell God and ourselves that we have done it.

But we need to get rid of any anti-love, anti-forgiveness stuff in us >

"bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking, with all malice."

"clamor" "evil speaking" > oh-oh > "clamor" can mean making a major racket > and in my head I can have a lot of noisy stuff, of suspicion and criticism against other people; it is noisy . . . clamor . . . with speaking evil against people, instead of how I need to first be caring in prayer with hope for any and all people > because love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). So, now I can see how my paranoid self-righteous criticizing in my head can be what God means by "clamor" and "evil speaking".

God is able to change me out of this stuff, so we are sharing as His family >

+=

So . . . thank you for however you pray this, and whatever you share here about this

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, Jesus wants us to forgive each other, "even as God" has forgiven us.

One thing I see is that we can not forgive like God does, unless we are together with God in His love so we are so sharing with Him in us having us forgive the way He does.

So, among other things, this commandment is meant to get us into such intimate and personal and sweet and caring sharing with God Himself.

So, it does not mean only a legalistic way of forgiving, in which we only say we forgive someone so we can tell God and ourselves that we have done it.

But we need to get rid of any anti-love, anti-forgiveness stuff in us >

"bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking, with all malice."

"clamor" "evil speaking" > oh-oh > "clamor" can mean making a major racket > and in my head I can have a lot of noisy stuff, of suspicion and criticism against other people; it is noisy . . . clamor . . . with speaking evil against people, instead of how I need to first be caring in prayer with hope for any and all people > because love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). So, now I can see how my paranoid self-righteous criticizing in my head can be what God means by "clamor" and "evil speaking".

God is able to change me out of this stuff, so we are sharing as His family >

+=

So . . . thank you for however you pray this, and whatever you share here about this

Agreed, however: A caution. This is preached by many, but is not practiced against those with whom they disagree theologically, or who don't agree with their agenda. Likewise, it is perhaps the main noised dogma of those who deny both the Scriptures and the relevance of God, and do not agree that truth is also a way of love.

It is not love to gloss over sin to the point that it is acceptable, merely to avoid contention and keep peace. Nor is it love to allow those who would be contentious only against those who are in their immediate realm of responsibility —i.e against their own brothers and countrymen— to continue to do so without opposition.

 

[com7fy8]

It is not love to gloss over sin to the point that it is acceptable

Yes, as I think you mean, forgiveness doe not mean to excuse what is wrong.

You forgive what is condemned. And with God forgiveness is intended to bring us to all which is so better than what our wrong stuff has been getting us.

Thank you

 

[Tolworth John]

Jesus wants us to forgive each other, "even as God" has forgiven us.

One thing I see is that we can not forgive like God does, unless

We understand how God forgives us!

God does not just forgive people.
Look at the Bible, how did God percribe that a New who had Brocken the law should get right with God?

He had to make a sacrifice and in acknowledgement of his sins lay his hand on the beasts head as it's throat was cut.
You see this right through the Bible from Adam to Jesus the sinner had to recognise he was a sinner and through sacrifice ask for forgiveness.

We do not have to expect sacrifice but like God we expect repentance, like with God if there is no repentance we do not have to forgive.
What we do is like Jesus at the cross, we hand the situation, the people and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.
Then we pray for the offender.
Because this is so hard many Christians prefer to manufacture feelings of forgiveness.

 

[com7fy8]

many Christians prefer to manufacture feelings of forgiveness.

Yeah, forgiving is not only getting rid of bad feelings about something, so you can feel better!

You seem to be saying that if we are with someone who wants to be forgiven, we do need to evaluate the person. And I do well to evaluate my own self.

And - - by the way - - if I forgive someone, this does not automatically mean I have to trust him or her. But prayerfully evaluate if and how God would have me trust the person. Forgiveness does not give the person power to dictate what I have to do with him or her. But God is the One to decide and guide me.

And God forgives someone, in order to bring the person to much better living. So, I certainly do not have to do what a forgiven person wants, in order to "prove" I have forgiven the person

 

[Tolworth John]

to be saying that if we are with someone who wants to be forgiven, we do need to evaluate the perso

No I am saying that someone who offends one, for them to be forgiven they have to say sorry.

For most of us being offended is a minor matter, it inconvenience's us, for others it can be life changing.
To be sorry for one is a matter of a sincere apology for the other, how do you make an apology for destroying someone's life?

Forgiveness is serious and is not to be treated lightly.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And - - by the way - - if I forgive someone, this does not automatically mean I have to trust him or her.

Agreed. As is self-evident, the burned child may forgive the fire for burning him, but he will not soon forget that the fire is hot!

 

[Mark Quayle]

No I am saying that someone who offends one, for them to be forgiven they have to say sorry.

For most of us being offended is a minor matter, it inconvenience's us, for others it can be life changing.
To be sorry for one is a matter of a sincere apology for the other, how do you make an apology for destroying someone's life?

Forgiveness is serious and is not to be treated lightly.

I agree wholeheartedly with you there. We all tend to become disgusted with someone who is always begging forgiveness, and those who trespass against us all too easily, because the repentance encumbers the forgiver also.

There are those who at the slightest pretext beg our attention and forgiveness, when they hadn't even done anything we consider to have been against us or worthy of notice. I feel like saying to them, "Oh shut up, will ya? This life isn't all about you!"

Likewise, I feel it is wrong to demand someone listen to me beg forgiveness once again after repeated loss of temper or whatever habitual wrong I do to them. Repentance isn't much more than mere confession, if it does not include permanent change. In fact, it could be argued it isn't even confession, if the sin isn't taken seriously enough to quit it.

Thank God for his Grace.

 

[com7fy8]

Look at the Bible, how did God percribe that a New who had Brocken the law should get right with God?

He had to make a sacrifice and in acknowledgement of his sins lay his hand on the beasts head as it's throat was cut.
You see this right through the Bible from Adam to Jesus the sinner had to recognise he was a sinner and through sacrifice ask for forgiveness.

Well, yes the forgiven person makes a sacrifice.

But God in forgiving has made His sacrifice, in order to forgive us. Jesus left Heaven itself, in order to come to us and be the sacrifice for us, suffering so and dying, on the cross.

So, I now consider how the forgiver can need to be stronger than the one forgiven. After all, possibly, the forgiven one has been acting in weakness and in not knowing how to love; so he or she is maybe not a very strong and resourceful person, and needs help.

And how much could we offer to God, from how we were, in order to be forgiven?? We needed how God is able, to take care of our problem. There was nothing, really, we could do to make up for all the harm we had done.

how do you make an apology for destroying someone's life?

So, an apology is not enough, though it is needed. And the person with a destroyed life needs what God is able to do.

God is able to heal the broken person's heart. God is able to bring someone to better than the life that was ruined.

 

[TheWhat?]

I was just thinking about posting on this subject yesterday.

The question on my mind was: do we even have a right to not be as forgiving as God?

Right now I'm inclined to a yes & no. No, because the law can and will condemn us all, and to be guilty on one point is to be guilty of all as per James. Yes, because there are still people who will wrong you and God is not unjust, He does still judge for the oppressed, for those who are wronged, etc. We're given rules to follow in the process and if one follows those rules you can't be blamed, but if those rules are not followed we take our chances at trying to do what God does.

 

[TheWhat?]

Another thought that crossed my mind was: is there a point where forgiveness is not the right thing to do?

To reframe what I was getting at in my last post, imagine if there is someone who has wronged you, and instead of judging that person you're going to forgive no matter what. Well, what if that person goes on to do the same to another brother or sister in Christ? Was forgiveness the right thing in that scenario? I don't think so, and to me it seems this is getting at the intent and purpose of the rules for judging another. They don't support fault finding and competitive judgment. They do support a community protecting itself from persons who are causing trouble, but in the end, they are not punitive beyond enforcing a necessary schism. Perhaps the assumption is that God judges beyond that point.

 

[bèlla]

And - - by the way - - if I forgive someone, this does not automatically mean I have to trust him or her. But prayerfully evaluate if and how God would have me trust the person. Forgiveness does not give the person power to dictate what I have to do with him or her. But God is the One to decide and guide me.

I love how you put this. Forgiveness doesn’t always mean reconciliation. Especially when the behavior continues. Sometimes they can’t be good to us or trustworthy. Although we may desire otherwise.

And God forgives someone, in order to bring the person to much better living. So, I certainly do not have to do what a forgiven person wants, in order to "prove" I have forgiven the person

Absolutely.

~bella

 

[Tolworth John]

Well, yes the forgiven person makes a sacrifice

No it is the one seeking forgiveness who made a sacrifice.

I am using God as the pattern that we follow.
If someone offends you, for them to obtain your forgiveness they have to apologise.

Someone come/scams you out of your pension fund. A life times savings or your actual pension gone.
You now have to return to work and will work untill you die.
Amazingly they are caught and make a public apology to all those who they have robbed and spent there life savings.
You would not have to forgive that person as they have not made restitution.

 

[bling]

My God is totally just/fair and yet extends unconditional Love and forgiving Love to everyone.

If the prodigal son does not return home the father still Loves him.

The “problem” is not with God lacking the highest imaginable degree of Love, but in our willingness to humbly accept that Love as pure charity the way it is given.

Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

This Parable come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:


The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer to all other humans we will relate to or just other Christian brothers?)

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asking for “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”? (That is impossible.)

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

Is there any other debt since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?