Forgiveness following divorce and remarriage

[PeterDona]

Poor translation of the Greek word porneia which early Christians understood to mean unlawful has resulted in the corruption of Jesus' and the apostles' teaching/preaching on marriage.

Matthew 19:9-10
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” 10 [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” nabre​

What is your source on this meaning of the word porneia? I am very curious.

 

[hedrick]

Porneia originally meant prostitution. However by NT times it meant all unlawful sex, including unlawful marriage. However I've read lots of interpretations of the relevant NT passages, and this is the only I've hard that particular interpretation.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Sorta. But you have middied the terminology a bit.

The Church addresses the question of whether a marriage was valid or not valid. If it's not valid and declared not valid then it never was a marriage, considered null and void.

If you have a serious reason for a divorce you may divorce without sin. You have a valid reason to separate or even divorce from an abusive spouse. That does not necessarily mean that the original marriage was invalid. Divorce when needed for serious reason. But that does not guarantee that the marriage never existed. The Church only says that remarriage is not possible if the original marriage was valid. Not to forbid a separation or divorce.

The RCC now has a ton of half-baked reasons for a marriage to be invalid, just to accommodate divorce, and it's a crisis. These reasons for the marriage having never been valid, coupled with the numerous others, would make quite a few marriages invalid, meaning you have a ton of Catholics living in fornication and sin. The Pope recently went so far as to suggest most Catholic marriages are invalid because the people involved don't truly understand it's a lifelong commitment (in essence, trying to make it easier for them to use that as grounds to divo--er, "annul"). By using annulment as a stand-in for divorce (which it is increasingly used for), this tremendous issue has arisen. An annulment means the marriage was never valid, and whether or not it is "discovered" that the marriage wasn't valid, has no bearing on that. So you can never know if your marriage is valid unless you push with all your might to have it annulled through as many avenues as possible, and it gets turned down; until then, you might be unknowingly living in fornication.

 

[FireDragon76]

There's not a lot of respect for the need for forgiveness in marriage or seeing marriage itself as a means of spiritual growth. The idea of a contract of two autonomous individuals is more common. The "one flesh" language is reduced to sexuality, even though the Bible uses the term flesh to refer more often to kinship. And in that Christian subculture, marriage is primarily seen as a legal obligation, especially one with completely different obligations for men and women, including rigid gender roles. It's no wonder there's such a high divorce rate. Emotional intimacy and vulnerability are not possible when you reduce human relationships to these categories.

 

[Meowzltov]

What is your source on this meaning of the word porneia? I am very curious.

Porneia refers to illicit sexual intercourse, such as those listed in Leviticus. The pagan world in Jesus' time accepted as "marriage" many relationships that Jews would acknowledge only as sin, such as incestuous relationships. What Jesus was saying is that these sort of invalid "marriages" could and should be left and a person could remarry without it being adultery.

It is for this reason that we have bible translations like:
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery (New American Bible)
Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife -- I am not speaking of an illicit marriage -- and marries another, is guilty of adultery.' (New Jerusalem Bible)

We had better come back to this correct understanding of this passage, because our society is allowing for more and more invalid marriages. We now have gay marriages, and polygamous an incestuous marriages are knocking on the door.

 

[jeager016]

Unless there is an extremely good reason for the divorce, then divorce and remarriage is adultery. God doesn't recognizance the new marriage, he sees it as an adulterous relationship, as Christ made expressly clear.

^^^What no verses to cite your claims?
I believe your post but it would be better to included Biblical
Verse to substantiate your post.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The RCC now has a ton of half-baked reasons for a marriage to be invalid, just to accommodate divorce, and it's a crisis. These reasons for the marriage having never been valid, coupled with the numerous others, would make quite a few marriages invalid, meaning you have a ton of Catholics living in fornication and sin. The Pope recently went so far as to suggest most Catholic marriages are invalid because the people involved don't truly understand it's a lifelong commitment (in essence, trying to make it easier for them to use that as grounds to divo--er, "annul"). By using annulment as a stand-in for divorce (which it is increasingly used for), this tremendous issue has arisen. An annulment means the marriage was never valid, and whether or not it is "discovered" that the marriage wasn't valid, has no bearing on that. So you can never know if your marriage is valid unless you push with all your might to have it annulled through as many avenues as possible, and it gets turned down; until then, you might be unknowingly living in fornication.

There are some very good reasons why a marriage may have been invalid from the beginning. They were given a few posts ago by someone else. These are real. Marriage needs the informed consent of both spouses, for a permanent faithful life open to procreation. That isn't always the case these days.

The presumption is, in canon law, that marriages are valid unless shown to be invalid. Nobody needs to concern themselves about proving that their marriage is valid, worrying that they are actually fornicating. If they figure out later that there was a serious flaw in consent then they can seek an annulment. But they can also perfect their consent at any time if they so choose.

Too many annulments? Yup. Some of that is the tribunal judges being too wimpy. Some of it is that Christians are rapidly losing the common understanding of marriage they once had, adopting the cultural societal norms of a temporary contract, childless contract, and/or semi-faithful marriage. We are less and less likely to understand marriage and thus more and more likely to have deficits in proper consent for marriage. Counseling before marriage helps, but there is a lot of unlearning that needs to be done. Doesn't always happen.

 

[Meowzltov]

Unless there is an extremely good reason for the divorce, then divorce and remarriage is adultery. God doesn't recognizance the new marriage, he sees it as an adulterous relationship, as Christ made expressly clear.

I dread this topic, because it is the source of so much suffering in the world, and my immediate inclination is simply to respond to people with compassion rather than by reciting laws. However this is a question about God's law and so I am going to stick to the point.

Matthew 19:9 doesn't make any exceptions for "extremely good reasons," I'm afraid. Remarrying after a divorce is adultery, period.

HOWEVER, and this is really important, there are such things as invalid marriages, relationships that appear to be marriages but which are illicit for any number of reasons. Perhaps there was fraud involved, or force, or the inability to give consent due to mental illness or intoxication. Sometimes the necessary criteria of a marriage simply doesn't exist, as in a gay marriage or an incestuous marriage. Sometimes there was no agreement to remain faithful or to otherwise fulfill the obligations of a marriage. The thing is, these invalid marriages almost always end up in civil divorce. What does the Bible have to say about this?

Matthew 19:9 says, I say to you, whoever divorces his wife EXCEPT FOR PORNEIA and marries another commits adultery.

Porneia is a Greek word that means illicit sexual intercourse (such as what is listed in Leviticus 18). The pagans in Jesus' time had so-called marraiges based on illicit relationships such as incest, relationships that the Jews would only call sinful. What Jesus was was saying in Matthew 19:9 is that a person could and should leave these kind of "marriages" and remarry and it wasn't adultery since they were invalid.

Thus, a really good translation for Matthew 19:9 would be the one in the New American Bible:
I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.

Here is a link to the grounds for which the Catholic church considers a marriage invalid:
http://www.stmarys-waco.org/documents/Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church.pdf

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

There are some very good reasons why a marriage may have been invalid from the beginning. They were given a few posts ago by someone else. These are real. Marriage needs the informed consent of both spouses, for a permanent faithful life open to procreation. That isn't always the case these days.

The presumption is, in canon law, that marriages are valid unless shown to be invalid. Nobody needs to concern themselves about proving that their marriage is valid, worrying that they are actually fornicating. If they figure out later that there was a serious flaw in consent then they can seek an annulment. But they can also perfect their consent at any time if they so choose.

Too many annulments? Yup. Some of that is the tribunal judges being too wimpy. Some of it is that Christians are rapidly losing the common understanding of marriage they once had, adopting the cultural societal norms of a temporary contract, childless contract, and/or semi-faithful marriage. We are less and less likely to understand marriage and thus more and more likely to have deficits in proper consent for marriage. Counseling before marriage helps, but there is a lot of unlearning that needs to be done. Doesn't always happen.

It's not just "too many annulments", it's that several of the reasons considered valid are ridiculous and sometimes (perhaps intentionally) vague, as a way of letting people divorce by saying the marriage was never valid. Are you saying if you have a "deficit" in understanding what marriage entails (which I think most of us would, a lot of it is something you learn as you go), then your marriage was never valid, and you are living in fornication?

 

[PeterDona]

We had better come back to this correct understanding of this passage, because our society is allowing for more and more invalid marriages. We now have gay marriages, and polygamous an incestuous marriages are knocking on the door.

I do believe that the Church do have a lot to say in, what will be legal in society. Matthew 18:18 speaks about the Christians having a governmental power. And I also believe that most of the Church do not understand this power given to them.

However, I also believe that it is very much time to contend for the faith. Let us do whatever is possible to bring back the world to the Gospel.

 

[Meowzltov]

Are you saying if you have a "deficit" in understanding what marriage entails (which I think most of us would, a lot of it is something you learn as you go), then your marriage was never valid, and you are living in fornication?

How can you consent to a contract (covenant) if you don't understand what you are agreeing to?

I don't think anyone is saying that a legal, albeit sacramentally invalid, marriage is the same thing as fornication. But it is not what God wants, and it can and should be fixed or left.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are you saying if you have a "deficit" in understanding what marriage entails (which I think most of us would, a lot of it is something you learn as you go), then your marriage was never valid, and you are living in fornication?

No. Or actually yes, for a serious deficit. I am saying that some people really don't know that marriage is supposed to be permanent and/or faithful and or open to life.They just don't get that even though they say the words. Some people are not capable of meaning those words for one serious reason or another. Nobody knows exactly what they are getting into in marriage but we make that commitment to permanence and faithfulness and openness to children anyhow. Or some of us make that commitment while others make some other culturally normative lesser commitments that are deficient in the ideas of permanence or faithfulness or openness to children.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

How can you consent to a contract (covenant) if you don't understand what you are agreeing to?

I don't think anyone is saying that a legal, albeit sacramentally invalid, marriage is the same thing as fornication. But it is not what God wants, and it can and should be left.

If you are saying the marriage was always invalid, isn't that saying it's the same as fornication? Sex is either fornication, or it isn't: there is no in between. If sex is not in marriage, it is fornication, yes? And if the marriage was never valid, there was no marriage, meaning no sex had was in marriage, yes? So was there a marriage, or wasn't there? If there was a marriage, then it's not "annulment", it's divorce. And if there wasn't marriage, then all the sex was fornication. If, from a Catholic perspective, you can never marry again once you're married (if the spouse is still living), then the marriage had to have been invalid, as in not an actual marriage, but a phony marriage; that is required for a remarriage.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

No. Or actually yes, for a serious deficit. I am saying that some people really don't know that marriage is supposed to be permanent and/or faithful and or open to life.They just don't get that even though they say the words. Some people are not capable of meaning those words for one serious reason or another. Nobody knows exactly what they are getting into in marriage but we make that commitment to permanence and faithfulness and openness to children anyhow. Or some of us make that commitment while others make some other culturally normative lesser commitments that are deficient in the ideas of permanence or faithfulness or openness to children.

And all the sex these people have in their "marriage" (the marriage never was actual), is fornication, right? Even if the marriage lasts until death?

 

[chevyontheriver]

And all the sex these people have in their "marriage" (the marriage never was actual), is fornication, right? Even if the marriage lasts until death?

You seem to be the only one saying so. But if that's how you see it ....

 

[Meowzltov]

I do believe that the Church do have a lot to say in, what will be legal in society. Matthew 18:18 speaks about the Christians having a governmental power.

Oh, I can't disagree more strongly. The culture wars are over, and Christians have lost. A new era has begun in our culture where traditional values will be persecuted; the Church will be persecuted as "intolerant" for promoting traditional values. We now have gay marriages, men in women's bathrooms, and be prepared for polygamous and incestuous marriages next.

 

[Meowzltov]

If you are saying the marriage was always invalid, isn't that saying it's the same as fornication?

I answered your question. You may not have liked my answer, but it doesn't mean you should ask me again.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I answered your question. You may not have liked my answer, but it doesn't mean you should ask me again.

Your answer dichotomizes the covenant and the Sacrament, but the whole basis of the Sacrament being invalid in Catholic annulments is that the covenant was invalid. Ergo, it's incoherent to say the covenant was valid, but the Sacrament was invalid.

 

[PeterDona]

The culture wars are over, and Christians have lost.

The Bible has a word, "overcome", in Revelation. It does mean that we have the victory and shall live by it.

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." – Revelation 12:11

A Spurgeon preaching on this: http://www.covenantofgrace.com/spurgeon_the_blood_of_the_lamb.htm

 

[Galilee63]

Every Marriage can be saved by our Lord Jesus and every relationship can be saved by our Lord Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Heavenly Mother Mary through daily prayer to Jesus, trusting in Jesus and receiving our Lord's Blessed Holy Sacraments weekly in particular the Sacrament of Reconciliation through repentance of sins to our Lord Jesus.

Trust during prayer to Jesus and calling upon our Blessed Heavenly Mother Mary for Her Loving Holy intercession has Jesus hearing and answering every Prayer to Him!

I mention this from personal experience and from the experiences of my own families and extended families.

Any thing in God's Holy Will through our Lord Jesus is possible if it be compatible with our Lord Jesus.

Here is an extract of just one of so many miracles of just one Saint - Saint Padre Pio relating to marriage.

www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/knowledge.htm

God knows our innermost thoughts and hearts and flowed through so many of His Holy Discernment to Saint Padre Pio.

God sees everything we do and we will have to give him a response for everything we do. The following story illustrates that God knows even our most hidden thoughts. In 1921 a man, who had belonged to a gang of unrepentant criminals had decided to kill his wife in order to be free to marry another woman. He put together a plan that would provide him with a good alibi. His wife was a devotee of Padre Pio who lived in the small town of Gargano. Since no one in that town knew of him or his reputation he thought it would be a good place to put his homicidal plan into effect. One day he suggested to his wife that they make a trip to Gargano and while they were there she could take advantage of the opportunity to visit the Friar she admired so much. When they arrived in the town, he left his wife in a hotel, and went alone to the convent to arrange for her to have confession with Padre Pio. He thought that while his wife was at confession he would be seen in town to corroborate his alibi. He looked for an inn where he would invite some of the town’s people to have a drink with him. Then, he would make some excuse, leave the inn, go kill his wife who had just left confession, and then later return to the inn. The convent was surrounded by open country and in the faint light of evening he felt sure no one would see anything. The plan was perfect. When he reached the convent he saw Padre Pio in the confessional. At this point he felt an impulse that he couldn’t contain. He knelt in front of Padre Pio’s confessional, and began to make the sign of the cross. Before he finished, cries came from the confessional. “Go away” Go away” “Go Away” “Don’t you know that it is forbidden to kill somebody?” Then Padre Pio grabbed the man by the arm and lead him away. The man was stunned, incredulous, and dismayed. He ran away to the country where he tripped on a boulder and fell face down in the mud. For the first time he acknowledged the horrors of his life full of sin. After a while he saw all of his existence and among the torments of his mind he understood his inhumane wickedness. Tormented to the depths of his soul he returned to church and asked Padre Pio to hear his confession. Padre Pio consented and with endless sweetness spoke to him as if he were an old friend. Padre Pio listed for him his whole life, moment by moment, sin after sin, crime after crime, everything in incredible detail, until he finally came to his recent intention to kill his wife. The man listened to Padre Pio speaking about the homicide that he had planned in his own mind. He had never told anyone else about it. Exhausted but finally free the man threw himself at the feat of the monk and begged forgiveness. This was not the end. Before the absolution was finished Padre Pio asked him, “You have desired to have children haven’t you? Well, do not offend God anymore and you will have a child”. The man returned a year later to Padre Pio, totally converted and he had become the father of a child who was born from the same wife he had wanted to kill.

A lady came from England to have her confession heard by Padre Pio. She went to his confessional but Padre Pio closed the window saying: “I am not available to you.” The woman stayed for several weeks and during this time, daily returned to his confessional and daily was turned away. Finally, Padre Pio consented to hear her confession. She asked the Padre why he made her wait so long to be heard. Padre Pio answered: “And You?” “How long have you made Our Lord wait?” You should wonder how Jesus could welcome you after you committed so many sacrileges. You have delayed your judgment for years, besides sinning against your husband and your mother you have received Holy Communion in mortal sin. The woman was stunned and reformed. She cried when she received absolution. She returned to England a few days later, very happy.