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For those who think drinking alcohol is a sin...

Tzaousios

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It may be politically incorrect but I don't care for church history or religion for that matter. It seems to find itself twisted along a narrow road.

I'm considered by many to be an independant Baptist that believes in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Actually I don't have a religion, as religion is man made. I have a relationship with Christ.

What is the point in saying this? Denigrating "religion" as "man-made" by saying one instead has a "relationship" is a tired old rhetorical trope.

Also, it does not reflect well on the interests of Baptists to declare that one "does not care for church history." It reveals a very feeble view of God's providence and sovereignty, which is demonstrated time and time again in history.
 
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Charlie24

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What is the point in saying this? Denigrating "religion" as "man-made" by saying one instead has a "relationship" is a tired old rhetorical trope.

Also, it does not reflect well on the interests of Baptists to declare that one "does not care for church history." It reveals a very feeble view of God's providence and sovereignty, which is demonstrated time and time again in history.

Show me in scripture a Baptist, Catholic, Penticostal, etc.

Was not religion divided into denominations by man because of interpretation? You don't like relationship, OK.

You know as well as I that church history is whatever the person speaking wants it to be. It's an endless arguement. I have my views on church history but I won't argue about it.
 
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Tzaousios

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Show me in scripture a Baptist, Catholic, Penticostal, etc.

There are people in every denomination that will argue that various New Testament figures were the original members of their denomination. Baptists are not excluded from this.

Was not religion divided into denominations by man because of interpretation?

Some, yes. However, interpretation of Scripture is something that we humans must deal with on this side of Heaven. When we translate, read, discuss, preach the text, we are offering interpretations of it.

You don't like relationship, OK.

I never said that. What I do think, though, is that cutting it down to a "relationship" is a reductive fallacy. Also, the denigration of "religion" and refusing to call Christianity or Baptist Christianity "religion" reveals more of a political commitment of sorts than not being afraid to identify it as religion.

You know as well as I that church history is whatever the person speaking wants it to be. It's an endless arguement. I have my views on church history but I won't argue about it.

Church history is no more of this than people offering different interpretations of the biblical text. How do you get around this conundrum?
 
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Charlie24

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There are people in every denomination that will argue that various New Testament figures were the original members of their denomination. Baptists are not excluded from this.



Some, yes. However, interpretation of Scripture is something that we humans must deal with on this side of Heaven. When we translate, read, discuss, preach the text, we are offering interpretations of it.



I never said that. What I do think, though, is that cutting it down to a "relationship" is a reductive fallacy. Also, the denigration of "religion" and refusing to call Christianity or Baptist Christianity "religion" reveals more of a political commitment of sorts than not being afraid to identify it as religion.



Church history is no more of this than people offering different interpretations of the biblical text. How do you get around this conundrum?

I consider my walk with Christ as a relationship because that's what it is.

I get around all this "conundrum" by concentrating on Christ and not what any religious organization has to say.

As far as the Baptists are concerned, I know multiplied hundreds of them. I have never talked to one who didn't claim a "relationship with Christ."

Church history has never changed anyone's life, but a relationship with Christ will.
 
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Tzaousios

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I consider my walk with Christ as a relationship because that's what it is.

I get around all this "conundrum" by concentrating on Christ and not what any religious organization has to say.

As far as the Baptists are concerned, I know multiplied hundreds of them. I have never talked to one who didn't claim a "relationship with Christ."

Church history has never changed anyone's life, but a relationship with Christ will.

I don't think you are addressing the specifics of what I have said. At no point did I discount or reject a relationship with Christ. To accuse me of that is to create a strawman.
 
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Charlie24

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I don't think you are addressing the specifics of what I have said. At no point did I discount or reject a relationship with Christ. To accuse me of that is to create a strawman.

What was it you said about a relationship with Christ?

"by saying one instead has a "relationship" is a tired old rhetorical trope."

Sir, I believe I am indeed addressing the specifics of what you said.
 
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Tzaousios

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What was it you said about a relationship with Christ?

"by saying one instead has a "relationship" is a tired old rhetorical trope."

Sir, I believe I am indeed addressing the specifics of what you said.

I qualified my statement there when I said that it is such a thing when one denigrates "religion" by refusing to call it that and substituting "relationship" instead. This does not mean that I do not think a relationship is bad or unimportant.
 
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Charlie24

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I qualified my statement there when I said that it is such a thing when one denigrates "religion" by refusing to call it that and substituting "relationship" instead. This does not mean that I do not think a relationship is bad or unimportant.

You are a Christian. What would be your religious status with Christ?

Is your status what your denomination says it is? Or do you read your Bible and commune with Christ on a personal basis?
 
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Tzaousios

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You are a Christian. What would be your religious status with Christ?

Thank you for acknowledging that I am a Christian. :)

As far as my "religious status" with Christ goes, you would have to explain what you mean by that. I do not employ the terms "religion" and "religious" in a pejorative manner as many Evangelicals do.

While I wait for your reply, you can look at my "About Me" tab in my profile. This might answer some of your question.

Is your status what your denomination says it is? Or do you read your Bible and commune with Christ on a personal basis?

Again, it would seem that you are employing the term "denomination" in a pejorative or negative sense. I do not see it in terms of a either/or dichotomy.

But yes, I find great joy and strength in modeling my beliefs after what the Church has always believed. At the same time, I do read my Bible and commune with Christ through personal study.
 
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Charlie24

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Thank you for acknowledging that I am a Christian. :)

As far as my "religious status" with Christ goes, you would have to explain what you mean by that. I do not employ the terms "religion" and "religious" in a pejorative manner as many Evangelicals do.

While I wait for your reply, you can look at my "About Me" tab in my profile. This might answer some of your question.



Again, it would seem that you are employing the term "denomination" in a pejorative or negative sense. I do not see it in terms of a either/or dichotomy.

But yes, I find great joy and strength in modeling my beliefs after what the Church has always believed. At the same time, I do read my Bible and commune with Christ through personal study.

Whether you realize it or not, or just not comfortable with the term, you have a personal relationship with Christ.

While I'm not that familiar with your beliefs I do know there is great pride in your church history. I must apologize for not knowing your background and showing somewhat disinterest in church history.
 
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Tzaousios

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Whether you realize it or not, or just not comfortable with the term, you have a personal relationship with Christ.

Oh, I do acknowledge and affirm it! However, I think that I define it differently than you and most Evangelicals. I think this relationship is sought and found primarily within the historical community of the Church.

For me, it is not nearly as much about how do I read and interpret the Bible, or how do I feel this individual relationship with Christ. Rather, it is how has the Bible been read and interpreted by the Church, whose martyrs died to pass on the deposit of their faith, how have Christians historically experienced Christ in the Church, and how do I tap into those things.

While I'm not that familiar with your beliefs I do know there is great pride in your church history. I must apologize for not knowing your background and showing somewhat disinterest in church history.

No problem! Church history is just something I value and am very interested in. Believe it or not, I was born-and-raised Southern Baptist, and still attend an SBC church with my family. However, I do not identify much with Baptist distinctives except for the foundational orthodox doctrines of Christianity.
 
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Blessedj01

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Before I was saved I went out to the bars every weekend and drank whiskey, I never cared for wine or beer. I never thought I was doing anything wrong, it was just part of my life (my idol). All my friends drank, had parties with every kind of alcohol imaginable. You name it, it was there.

I went to church one Sunday morning with a hangover because it was my Moms birthday and she would have nothing but for me to come to Church with her. I was forever changed that morning. For the first time in my life I realized I was a sinner, it was my sin that hung Christ on that cross. But yet He loved me and gave His life that I might live.

Sin will take you further than you want to go, and keep you longer than you want to stay. I also thought, just one shot and that's all. That's not the way it works my friend. If you accept alcohol in your life it will take the second, third and fourth shots to satisfy. Satan will see to it, he's not called the god of this world for nothing. Give him an inch and he will take you where you never thought possible.

But you say that can't happen to me. Along with millions of others I said the same thing. Only by the grace of God and my mothers prayers did I escape the snare of satan. It all began with alcohol. It's not just God that has a plan for your life, satan has one too. Give him just a little and he'll take you there.

Exactly, your habit was taking you too far and started affecting your walk. This is what we refer to as personal conviction.

That's not proof of a biblical position against all alcohol.
 
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Blessedj01

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No it's not, it's just an open door for satan.

For you.

A lot of things can be an "open door for Satan" if your personal conviction tells you so.

A glass of beer isn't usually a stronghold for anybody that doesn't have a problem with alcohol.

When Jesus turned water into wine, I don't think he opened up the door for Satan.

...let me guess, you're one of those people who think Jesus made Ribena grape-juice instead?

Let's be real. Wine was an integral part of ancient culture and there's no reason for it (alcohol) to be inherantly sinful today.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html#ixzz3GiDJubY4

...you know, all this energy spent on one topic will affect your walk far more than half a glass of wine and some cheese and crackers would.

In fact, all this fixation might affect your witness.

Ultimately, legalism brings death. It's exactly what Jesus came to end.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It may be politically incorrect but I don't care for church history or religion for that matter. It seems to find itself twisted along a narrow road.

You don't get to talk about your loyalty to "traditional Christianity" and then simultaneously reject it and say you don't care about it at the same time. That's talking out of both sides of the mouth.

Traditional Christianity is the Christianity of the last two thousand years--the Christianity of the Apostles, the Church Fathers, the Scholastics, the Protestant Reformers, and so forth. It covers Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Protestantism.

Traditional Christianity--the religion of the New Testament--has never taught Teetotalism. Christianity has cautioned against excess and encouraged the mortification of the flesh through self-discipline; which is why fasting, and various forms of self-denial exist within Christianity in order to teach one to curb the appetites.

But one will only care about what traditional Christianity is if they care about the history of the Christian Church and bother to concern themselves with what has been taught and confessed since the beginning.

Which is why we Lutherans, the original Sola Scriptura people, don't play the game of re-inventing Christianity through personal, uninformed opinion or by playing fast and loose with Scripture. But rather remain confessionalists, we have what is known as the Book of Concord, a collection of creeds and confessions that includes the three Historic Creeds--the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, and the Athanasian Creed--as well as our own distinctive Lutheran confessions, the most important being the Augsburg Confession. By our confession we remain faithful to the Word of God--Holy Scripture--and confess the historic Christian faith as it has been taught, confessed, and believed for these last two thousand years.

Scripture Alone doesn't mean anything unless one is actually believing and confessing what the Scriptures say and mean. The Creeds and Confessions of the Christian Church throughout history ensures that we remain faithful to the pure, holy, inspired, unfailing Word of Holy Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Charlie24

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You don't get to talk about your loyalty to "traditional Christianity" and then simultaneously reject it and say you don't care about it at the same time. That's talking out of both sides of the mouth.

Traditional Christianity is the Christianity of the last two thousand years--the Christianity of the Apostles, the Church Fathers, the Scholastics, the Protestant Reformers, and so forth. It covers Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Protestantism.

Traditional Christianity--the religion of the New Testament--has never taught Teetotalism. Christianity has cautioned against excess and encouraged the mortification of the flesh through self-discipline; which is why fasting, and various forms of self-denial exist within Christianity in order to teach one to curb the appetites.

But one will only care about what traditional Christianity is if they care about the history of the Christian Church and bother to concern themselves with what has been taught and confessed since the beginning.

Which is why we Lutherans, the original Sola Scriptura people, don't play the game of re-inventing Christianity through personal, uninformed opinion or by playing fast and loose with Scripture. But rather remain confessionalists, we have what is known as the Book of Concord, a collection of creeds and confessions that includes the three Historic Creeds--the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, and the Athanasian Creed--as well as our own distinctive Lutheran confessions, the most important being the Augsburg Confession. By our confession we remain faithful to the Word of God--Holy Scripture--and confess the historic Christian faith as it has been taught, confessed, and believed for these last two thousand years.

Scripture Alone doesn't mean anything unless one is actually believing and confessing what the Scriptures say and mean. The Creeds and Confessions of the Christian Church throughout history ensures that we remain faithful to the pure, holy, inspired, unfailing Word of Holy Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

All the info I need concerning Church history can be found in my KJV. I don't need any outside sources, nor do I want any.

That's just me, if you're big on Church history then go for it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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All the info I need concerning Church history can be found in my KJV. I don't need any outside sources, nor do I want any.

It's rare and somewhat refreshing to have someone be so forthright in their intentioned desire to be ignorant.

Though out of mild curiosity--which KJV? Though I guess it doesn't matter, since facts, history, information really don't matter to you. You got your modern, post 19th century King James without Deuterocanonicals and by golly if that was good enough for Moses that's good enough for you.

Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to have a chat with my talking unicorn friend and the tooth fairy about how the sun goes around in circles around our flat earth and that the stars are pinholes in the great black sheet that covers the sky-dome.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Charlie24

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It's rare and somewhat refreshing to have someone be so forthright in their intentioned desire to be ignorant.

Though out of mild curiosity--which KJV? Though I guess it doesn't matter, since facts, history, information really don't matter to you. You got your modern, post 19th century King James without Deuterocanonicals and by golly if that was good enough for Moses that's good enough for you.

Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to have a chat with my talking unicorn friend and the tooth fairy about how the sun goes around in circles around our flat earth and that the stars are pinholes in the great black sheet that covers the sky-dome.

-CryptoLutheran

Sorry, but I'm more concerned about souls being saved and my relationshikp with Christ than Church history.

By the way, how many souls has Church history saved? Or do you even care there's people out there going to hell. It's all about the blessed Catholic Church and her history, right. When are you people going to wake up and see what's really happening?
 
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Blessedj01

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Sorry, but I'm more concerned about souls being saved and my relationshikp with Christ than Church history.

By the way, how many souls has Church history saved? Or do you even care there's people out there going to hell. It's all about the blessed Catholic Church and her history, right. When are you people going to wake up and see what's really happening?

How many people has teetotalism saved?

Probably none.
 
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