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No, God dosen't cast Satan, God's very creature, into the Lake of Fire as an expression of love.
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No. God Loves everyone (this Love is defined by 1 Cor. 13, 1 John 4, everything Christ did and said). We are to "Love" those that hate us and want to kill us (like those first century Christians were to Love Paul when he was Saul killing Christians.
The issue is not with God having some limit to His Love, but with humans humbly accepting that Love as pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness. Humans cannot obtain an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) unless they humbly accept God's forgiveness (Luke 7 and Matt. 18). If they do not want God's Love, they would not be happy in heaven where this agape is the only Love."
People "doom" themselves by not humbly accepting God's Love for them.
Hmmmm. It kinda looks like they were evil.God provides His reason!
Deuteronomy 20:16-18 KJV,
16 “But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:”
17 “But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:”
18 “That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.”
I know you say it. But your view is inconsistent because in reality, your view is that He only really loves those who love Him back. They rest end up in hell.WOW!!! Not at all! I have repeatedly said: "God Loves Everyone!". Quoting from my post of 371:"but (the problem is) with humans humbly accepting that Love as pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness. Humans cannot obtain an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) unless they humbly accept God's forgiveness (Luke 7 and Matt. 18). If they do not want God's Love, they would not be happy in heaven where this agape is the only Love."
People "doom" themselves by not humbly accepting God's Love for them.
I want to reply to you on this because, one thing I think you are not looking at are God’s laws. Laws have consequences- good or bad. God will not break His laws for us because we suffer the pain of it.I know you say it. But your view is inconsistent because in reality, your view is that He only really loves those who love Him back. They rest end up in hell.
The cause of their disbelief was not being His sheep.
If that is the case it makes no sense for Jesus to give those he denounces as "not my sheep" (John 10:24-28) any reasons to believe in him as he did in John 10:37-38. That would be casting pearls before swine.
He most certainly did. In John 10:37-38, Jesus pointed to his miracles as reasons for his opponents he labeled "not his sheep" to "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father". If being "not his sheep" makes one reprobate (which is the Calvinist understanding), then why is Jesus trying to convince them of that fact? Once they "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", they would have to believe him.He didn’t.
I know there are consequences. That’s not the issue. For instance, I have laws at my house. There are consequences for not obeying. But I would never sentence my child to death for not obeying. Why? Because my love transcends their obedience. Their ultimate disposition is not dependent on their behavior. The only thing affected is the fellowship.I want to reply to you on this because, one thing I think you are not looking at are God’s laws. Laws have consequences- good or bad. God will not break His laws for us because we suffer the pain of it.
God loves all - it has nothing to do with God loving those that love Him back. He asked Cain, if he does well, wouldn’t he be accepted, Genesis 4:7 KJV, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
Laws are in place that demand either punishment or praise. God operates by righteous laws, or else He would not have been able to create earth, man, stars, the universe, etc.
This is why we have laws and government on earth - patterned after heaven. This is why parents punish their children for bad behavior - patterned after heaven.
It’s just that with man, who God gave dominion over the earth, God has made decisions to stop man’s destruction of the human race: sometimes due to man’s terrible sin that come with severe consequences, God will stop them through taking their life.
I would like for you to watch this YouTube movie: called: “God of Wonders” Watch that movie; you will see so much about God’s majesty, His laws, beauty, love and wisdom.
God bless!
And I addressed this already.He most certainly did. In John 10:37-38, Jesus pointed to his miracles as reasons for his opponents he labeled "not his sheep" to "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father". If being "not his sheep" makes one reprobate (which is the Calvinist understanding), then why is Jesus trying to convince them of that fact? Once they "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", they would have to believe him.
John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Believing in works isn’t what saves anyone.
You did not address John 10:37-38 (see below). Believing that Jesus's works are from God was only a small part of what Jesus said in John 10:37-38 and there was no mention of salvation in that passage nor in my argument. It is a bad idea to dismiss the words of Jesus flippantly.And I addressed this already.
Believing in works isn’t what saves anyone.
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”You did not address John 10:37-38 (see below). Believing that Jesus's works are from God was only a small part of what Jesus said in John 10:37-38 and there was no mention of salvation in that passage nor in my argument. It is a bad idea to dismiss the words of Jesus flippantly.
Believing Jesus works were from the Father is necessary for a follower. I agree that his sheep hears and follow him based upon John 10:24-28.If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
— John 10:37-38
Where does He say believing in His works makes them sheep? He doesn’t. What does He say a sheep does? Hears and follows.
The lesson he shared with "not his sheep" in John 10:37-38 was repeated almost verbatim to the twelve later in John 14:11.In John 10:37-38, Jesus pointed to his miracles as reasons for his opponents he labeled "not his sheep" to "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father". If being "not his sheep" makes one reprobate (which is the Calvinist understanding), then why is Jesus trying to convince them of that fact? Once they "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", they would have to believe him.
John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Actually, that was to the 11 who were His sheep, but who were having doubts. The goat had already left.Believing Jesus works were from the Father is necessary for a follower. I agree that his sheep hears and follow him based upon John 10:24-28.
Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep. I say that his sheep refers to his followers, whereas you say that people are either born as "his sheep" or "not his sheep" - where only his sheep will be saved and are "elected from before the foundation of the world.”. What Jesus said in John 10:37-38 shows that Jesus did not consider the "not his sheep" as reprobate as you assert.
I reintroduce my argument in Post 385.
The lesson he shared with "not his sheep" in John 10:37-38 was repeated almost verbatim to the twelve later in John 14:11.
Do you believe goats can become sheep?Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep.
Believing Jesus works were from the Father is necessary for a follower. I agree that his sheep hears and follow him based upon John 10:24-28.
Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep. I say that his sheep refers to his followers, whereas you say that people are either born as "his sheep" or "not his sheep" - where only his sheep will be saved and are "elected from before the foundation of the world.”. What Jesus said in John 10:37-38 shows that Jesus did not consider the "not his sheep" as reprobate as you assert.
I reintroduce my argument in Post 385.
The lesson he shared with "not his sheep" in John 10:37-38 was repeated almost verbatim to the twelve later in John 14:11.
My guess (and I have to do a lot of that when responding to your curt posts) is you are responding only to the last sentence of my post - if that is the case it would be helpful to strictly quote that portion you are responding to.Actually, that was to the 11 who were His sheep, but who were having doubts. The goat had already left.
Did you watch the video “God of Wonders?”I know there are consequences. That’s not the issue. For instance, I have laws at my house. There are consequences for not obeying. But I would never sentence my child to death for not obeying. Why? Because my love transcends their obedience. Their ultimate disposition is not dependent on their behavior. The only thing affected is the fellowship.
Based on your understanding of God, I’m a much better parent than He is.
What I’m saying is that your point about John 14 is moot because Jesus was not speaking to the twelve. So I explained that He was speaking to the 11 because they were having doubts. That’s different than the crowd in chapter 10.My guess (and I have to do a lot of that when responding to your curt posts) is you are responding only to the last sentence of my post - if that is the case it would be helpful to strictly quote that portion you are responding to.
My main point is John 10:37-38 which was addressed to the religious leaders that Jesus termed "not my sheep" (John 10:26). I mentioned John 14:11 in order to show that this topic was difficult to his closest disciples. So why would Jesus be sharing teaching with reprobates that even his closest disciples had difficulty with? Much less why would Jesus waste his time teaching reprobates? Jesus taught not to cast pearls before swine.
Judas was present with the other 11 disciples when Jesus spoke John 14:11. Based upon your response and your understanding of "my sheep", it seems that you are saying that none of the spiritual truths Jesus spoke in public or private could be understood by those who would not be saved and thus when Jesus speaks spiritual truth he for all practical purposes is only addressing "his sheep". Thus as you said in your response what Jesus said in John 14:11 was intended only for the eleven. if that is the case, then John 10:37-38 makes absolutely no sense. What Jesus spoke in John 10:37-38 does make sense if "my sheep" refers to "my followers" - as in that case Jesus was pointing to his miracles in an effort to trying to convince "not my followers" to become "his followers".
lol. We are done here.Because you don’t see yourself as a created being.
If God does not cast satan into the lake of fire than God is a liar and He is not fair/just and trustworthy.No, God dosen't cast Satan, God's very creature, into the Lake of Fire as an expression of love.
You’re putting up a strawman, I do not agree with that at all.I know you say it. But your view is inconsistent because in reality, your view is that He only really loves those who love Him back. They rest end up in hell.
He could do two things. One, He could take their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, and they would love Him freely.You’re putting up a strawman, I do not agree with that at all.
People do not go to hell because God does not Love them!!!
Just like the King in Matt. 18, God actually does his Loving part perfectly and forgives everyone, but just like the servant in Matt. 18, people do not humble themselves to the point of accepting God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness is not completed (forgiveness just does not happen.) The king, out of great Love, unconditionally forgave the servant, but the servant refused to accept such forgiveness as pure charity, so the servant has no huge Love (Luke 7) and goes to jail (Hell).
That is the way it works in the Kingdom.
People go to hell because they do not like or want Godly type Love, they want to be loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be (which that kind of love is not in heaven) and not Loved in spite of the way they really are.
God does not want unhappy beings in heaven, He cannot make happy of their own free will.
He could do two things. One, He could take their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, and they would love Him freely.
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