For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Doveaman]

The fact that we don't know right now exactly how the human brain works is no more proof of the supernatural than the fact that 200 years ago, we didn't know exactly how lightning worked.

Except that 200 years from now you still will not know exactly how the brain works if all you are relying on is science. That’s my prediction.

 

[Doveaman]

How that follows?
I mean your "logic" is something like that:
"Whatever the first cause of snowflakes is, it is certainly snowflake like."

If an intelligent thought, idea or desire is generated by a source then that source has to be intelligent. That's logical.

In other words: "You don't know, therefore goddidit."

Actually, I know because Goddidit.

We know that argument. It is still futile.

Futile to those who don't know God. That's not my fault.

 

[Inan3]

Wel, the link can be demonstrated in a matter of seconds. If I bash on the head, you might lose your ability to recognize people, to speak, to remember, etc. The link is without a doubt there. No need for assumptions.

I fail to see the link to the will here. You have only shown an example of a physical condition and it doesn't even appear to have anything to do with the will. Now if you had said, "If I bash you on the head, you might bash me back", then I could see the connection to the will but in your example it could just be physical complications without the will involved at all.

But we can. Indirectly but we can.

Could you explain what you mean here by "indirectly" being able to detect dark energy? How does that occur?

Since this would obviously lead to endless questions of "Then, what caused X? Then what caused Y? Then what caused Z?" I'll skip all that and admit that in the end, I don't know.

Nice save!

The problem I see with even trying to address this is that your argument is one of ignorance. "We don't know X, therefore magic." "You can't explain the mind, therefore it's nonphysical." "You can't fully control the "human will" therefore it's nonphysical." Et cetera. The reality is that all we've ever observed even remotely associated with "human will" is physical. Neurons, brains, electricity, EM fields, ions, etc and all you're saying is "How do you know there's not a nonphysical component?" Might as well ask "How do you know there is not an undetectable banana pudding component? Do you have evidence that there's no undetectable banana pudding behind consciousness?"

Classic non-answer and avoidance of the possible truth behind his conjecture. Also, please explain (if you can) what physical observations we see of the will. It appears to me that we do see physical happenings when the will is exherted. The will says it wants to go here and then the brain carries out the physical function of moving here or there but still no insight into where that voice came from that said "I" want to go here or there or I "will" go here or there or NOT. It's my CHOICE. Who is "I" or "MY" or "ME" anyway? Let me tell you. "I" am spirit and soul and "I" live in an incredibly efficient and wonderfully made body. When "I" leave my body "I" am still an entity. That is why there have been MULTIPLIED accounts of people who left their bodies on the operating table when the died temporarily and they could see what was happening to and around their physical bodies from above or beside the tables. They could still see, think but just couldn't interact with the physical world because their brains were not functioning. Their bodies were dead and yet they were still cognisant. Life is not only physical whether you believe it or not. There is a God who is Spirit and you, yourself are spirit, soul and body. The problem with you is that you are presently separated from God because you are not born again. That is why you don't understand. Just turn to Him and your spirit will be made alive to Him and you, too, will be able to "SEE" what you haven't been able to "see" with your physical eyes and brain. You see your body is just a vehicle for the real you. It takes you where you want to go but just like your car or truck are not the real you... they may be a reflection of you or your life but not the real you. They may get you where you want to go but YOU are the driver. When someone you know sees your car they may say "sandwiches" is here but that's only the outward evidence. The real you is on the inside.

The process of consciousness differs from computer program only in its complexity. It's like claiming that since we don't fully understand how gravity works, it must be nonphysical. Why would we think that? Why should we assume there's something beyond what we can detect?

Oh now it is beyond what we can "detect". It used to be beyond what we can "see". I see progress. As Ar Cosc brings out, 200 years ago we didn't know how lightning worked... be careful in another 200 years science might just discover about the soul and the spirit. Too bad some of us won't be here for that. I hope you are!!

 

[Nostromo]

If an intelligent thought, idea or desire is generated by a source then that source has to be intelligent. That's logical.

Yet you still add the qualifier "first cause" to the intelligence behind it so that you think you can avoid applying your logic to your own ideas.

 

[Inan3]

Unless you are claiming that our “imagination” causes neurons in our brain to fire the way they do. But then you need to explain the physical process by which the “imagination” in generated in the first place, what’s the intelligent first cause behind it, because whatever that cause is it's certainly intelligent.

Yet you still add the qualifier "first cause" to the intelligence behind it so that you think you can avoid applying your logic to your own ideas.

I thought it fitting for the full quote to be viewed to follow Doveaman's logic. I suppose if one is incapable of following a simple line of logic one could come up with your answer but then I would assume that your answer would have an intelligent first cause behind it, because whatever that cause is it is certainly intelligent or would you argue with this assumption, too? I'm just curious.

 

[Upisoft]

If an intelligent thought, idea or desire is generated by a source then that source has to be intelligent. That's logical.
Actually, I know because Goddidit.
Futile to those who don't know God. That's not my fault.

So you say A has property B. A is generated by C. Therefore C has property B.

Let me think. So a photon has the property to move with the speed of light. A photon is generated by an electron. Therefore the electron is moving with the speed of light.

Hmmm. Sorry. Your logic is still in fault.

You know your God? Did you forget about the "mysterious ways"?

Why it isn't your fault? What is your job as a Christian? Is it to make excuses that the fault is in others?

 

[Nostromo]

I thought it fitting for the full quote to be viewed to follow Doveaman's logic. I suppose if one is incapable of following a simple line of logic one could come up with your answer

What Doveman is saying is not in any way logical. I just thought I'd cut to the chase and jump to the point that you inevitably have to address eventually.

Anyway, all Doveman has done in that previously quoted post is make the assumption that it must have an intelligent source. We can sit here and assume things all day long but it isn't going to bring us any closer to what's actually going on.

but then I would assume that your answer would have an intelligent first cause behind it, because whatever that cause is it is certainly intelligent or would you argue with this assumption, too? I'm just curious.[/COLOR]

The source of my speech may be intelligence but there's no real reason to think that the intelligence itself is anything other than an emergent property of a pretty complex physical system.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Except that 200 years from now you still will not know exactly how the brain works if all you are relying on is science. That’s my prediction.

And you're free to make a prediction like that based on your opinions, but if you were being honest, you'd admit that it is just an opinion, and you don't have any more evidence for it than the people who thought Thor made lightning with a hammer.

 

[Inan3]

If an intelligent thought, idea or desire is generated by a source then that source has to be intelligent. That's logical.
Actually, I know because Goddidit.
Futile to those who don't know God. That's not my fault.

What Doveman is saying is not in any way logical. I just thought I'd cut to the chase and jump to the point that you inevitably have to address eventually.

Anyway, all Doveman has done in that previously quoted post is make the assumption that it must have an intelligent source. We can sit here and assume things all day long but it isn't going to bring us any closer to what's actually going on.

The source of my speech may be intelligence but there's no real reason to think that the intelligence itself is anything other than an emergent property of a pretty complex physical system.

And yet, this is only an assumption on your part, also, am I correct? There has been no DISCOVERED or PROVEN reason for us to think that intelligence IS an emergent property of the physical system. It really is ONLY an assmption, isn't it?

 

[Ar Cosc]

And yet, this is only an assumption on your part, also, am I correct? There has been no DISCOVERED or PROVEN reason for us to think that intelligence IS an emergent property of the physical system. It really is ONLY an assmption, isn't it?

But given the fact that the general trend is for us not to understand the physical reason for things, only to discover there is one after research, it's not the most unreasonable of assumptions to make.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

And yet, this is only an assumption on your part, also, am I correct? There has been no DISCOVERED or PROVEN reason for us to think that intelligence IS an emergent property of the physical system. It really is ONLY an assmption, isn't it?

When has God of the Gaps ever worked out for you?

 

[Inan3]

When has God of the Gaps ever worked out for you?

Please explain what this has to do with what I was talking about!???!

And if you are asking me when has God ever worked out for me... the answer to that is everyday of my life.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Please explain what this has to do with what I was talking about!???!

And if you are asking me when has God ever worked out for me... the answer to that is everyday of my life.

"God of the Gaps" refers to making God your answer for a phenomenon that does not have a very robust physical explanation. For example, for a long time humans worshiped gods to ask for good weather. Now that we understand that weather is natural and is governed by physical laws, anyone would find it silly to attribute weather to God. Similarly, before we understood evolution, people assumed that God made humans as we are today. But that turned out to be wrong, because evolution is the physical and natural reason why we are here.

Same thing goes for the human mind. Sure, we don't have a perfect natural and physical explanation for it right now. But that doesn't mean there isn't one, or that a supernatural or "Goddidit" explanation is warranted. There has never been a supernatural explanation that predicted anything accurately. Science is the only game in town for explaining and predicting things.

 

[Inan3]

But given the fact that the general trend is for us not to understand the physical reason for things, only to discover there is one after research, it's not the most unreasonable of assumptions to make.

Well, now that would be true IF the research that has been put into this particular subject had turned up some facts or evidence but it hasn't. And yet, it's not that unreasonable to assume that there is a spirit and a soul to man considering that people have actually accounted that after a death experience on an operating table or whereever their consciousness and understanding did not leave them and that they were aware of other realms. Now I will admit not all of the following situations PROVE anything but surely you must admit that it also suggests that it is not the most unreasonable of assumptions to make when considering the there is more to our lives than just the physical.

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

 

[Ar Cosc]

Well, now that would be true IF the research that has been put into this particular subject had turned up some facts or evidence but it hasn't. And yet, it's not that unreasonable to assume that there is a spirit and a soul to man considering that people have actually accounted that after a death experience on an operating table or whereever their consciousness and understanding did not leave them and that they were aware of other realms. Now I will admit not all of the following situations PROVE anything but surely you must admit that it also suggests that it is not the most unreasonable of assumptions to make when considering the there is more to our lives than just the physical.

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

On the contrary, there has been a large amount done on the activity of the brain, how stimulating different areas of it cause different feelings and emotions. There have been a few examples given in the thread. For example, we can make someone feel hungry, or elated, or depressed, by stimulating the right areas. There's no reason to assume that we couldn't make someone want to make a cake and give it to the man three doors down the street if we refined the techniques and knowledge we already have.

As for the afterlife, and near-death experience thing, it's my belief that people see and believe what they want to see and believe. These experiences of God and Jesus, and Heaven and Hell almost always seem to happen among passionate christians. It's rare to find someone who had one of these experiences while an atheist, and if someone is a Muslim, they see Allah, if they are a Shintoist, they see their ancestors. All of that to me suggests social conditioning rather than the supernatural

 

[AV1611VET]

It's rare to find someone who had one of these experiences while an atheist, and if someone is a Muslim, they see Allah, if they are a Shintoist, they see their ancestors.

So an atheist would see ...

YouTube - 70s Mother Nature *Chiffon* Margarine Commercial

 

[Inan3]

"God of the Gaps" refers to making God your answer for a phenomenon that does not have a very robust physical explanation. For example, for a long time humans worshiped gods to ask for good weather. Now that we understand that weather is natural and is governed by physical laws, anyone would find it silly to attribute weather to God. Similarly, before we understood evolution, people assumed that God made humans as we are today. But that turned out to be wrong, because evolution is the physical and natural reason why we are here.

Thank you for your explanation. I really find this quite funny because in my mind that is what you do with science. I would call it the "Science of the Gaps". For you and others it is your way of wiping God or the fact that there is a spiritual realm and we are spiritual beings out of your thinking. I also believe there is a "spiritual" force behind this to keep you from the One who cares and loves you most in this life. God is not a "fill in" for our insecurities or lack of answers. He is a being Who loves and reasons and communes with us. IF I never received anything in my relationship FROM God and it was only onesided with me just making things up as I go don't you think that I would eventually give it up without any response or communication from God's side. If you think that, it is no wonder that you atheists think we Christians are mindless and deceitful. I would think the same way. BUT it is not onesided. God is not made up in my mind. He is real. I don't stay because I am afraid. I stay because I am loved. I don't use God to fill in the gaps but God has filled in the gaps with answers to my questions which are unanswerable by science. I respect science but only to a point.

"Same thing goes for the human mind. Sure, we don't have a perfect natural and physical explanation for it right now. But that doesn't mean there isn't one, or that a supernatural or "Goddidit" explanation is warranted. There has never been a supernatural explanation that predicted anything accurately. Science is the only game in town for explaining and predicting things.

You are wrong when you say, "There has never been a supernatural explanation that predicted anything accurately." God's word, the Bible is FULL of prophesies and predictions that have come true and are still coming true at a rapid rate especially in this day and age. And it would behoove EVERYONE to find out what is going on because it is soon all going to come down and to an end. This is just the beginning of the things which are going to happen in this last day. It's important to be on the right side of the battle. I'm talking about between the natural and the spiritual realms. I realize when you said predicted you probably were talking scientifically but words are words and what you said wasn't accurate.

I'm going to say one more thing that may make you and others only laugh but I want you to know that God has sent me here to tell you that He is real and knows who you are and wants to give you abundant eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ. You have probably heard this before but you will never be able to say that God didn't love you enough to send someone to tell you because He has sent me. All you have to do is talk to Him and ask Him to come into your life and show you what He has planned for you. He'll do the rest so keep your eyes open. The God I'm talking about is not the gods that people prayed for to change the weather or give a basket of fruit to or offered their children to, nor is He the moon god Allah of today, nor Vashti or Buddha etc. The gods of the past or the present are all false. He is the ONLY God. The God of all creation and there is NO other gods beside Him or before Him. He is the living God the great I AM!

 

[Inan3]

It's rare to find someone who had one of these experiences while an atheist

The reason for this is because they no longer hold onto their atheistic views after they experience these things. I have read of many testimonies of those who were professed atheists and then became believers BECAUSE they experienced a spiritual encounter with God. It is inherent with every person to believe in God. It is only those who stifle and push it down that begin to become insensitive to it's influence in their lives. Atheism is a choice NOT to believe in God while Christianity is a choice TO believe in God. It all comes down to that "will" within us. It is OUR choice it is not a physical malady that one has and one has not. That wouldn't be fair now would it. God has made it so that all may choose. It is after all free "will".

 

[truewitness1]

I believe in God, and I believe he is the creator of all things. True we cannot see God as he is a spirit but there is evidence all around that God is real. It is true we cannot see air but we feel its effects and know it exists.

There are sound reasons for believing in God:

1) Psalms 19:1-"The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.

2) Psalms 104:24-"How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions."

3) Romans 1:20 "His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made."

When we see a camera, a radio, or a computer for example we readily acknowledge that it must have been produced by an intelligent designer. Would it be reasonable, then, to say that far more complex things such as the human eye, the ear, and the human brain did not originate with an intelligent designer? These things could not have just evolved or got here by chance.

 

[mzungu]

"God of the Gaps" refers to making God your answer for a phenomenon that does not have a very robust physical explanation. For example, for a long time humans worshiped gods to ask for good weather. Now that we understand that weather is natural and is governed by physical laws, anyone would find it silly to attribute weather to God.

Go tell that to the insurance companies that refuse to cover so called "ACTS OF GOD"!