For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Ar Cosc]

The reason for this is because they no longer hold onto their atheistic views after they experience these things. I have read of many testimonies of those who were professed atheists and then became believers BECAUSE they experienced a spiritual encounter with God. It is inherent with every person to believe in God. It is only those who stifle and push it down that begin to become insensitive to it's influence in their lives. Atheism is a choice NOT to believe in God while Christianity is a choice TO believe in God. It all comes down to that "will" within us. It is OUR choice it is not a physical malady that one has and one has not. That wouldn't be fair now would it. God has made it so that all may choose. It is after all free "will".

I've said this in many threads before, but I tried really hard to be a christian. I didn't choose to be an atheist, it just sort of happened the more I learned about the world.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Thank you for your explanation. I really find this quite funny because in my mind that is what you do with science. I would call it the "Science of the Gaps". For you and others it is your way of wiping God or the fact that there is a spiritual realm and we are spiritual beings out of your thinking.

I'm content with saying "I don't know" for things yet to be explained. I just wish religious people were like that too. It would be hasty to put "God" in the gap, because once the gap is filled, where does God go?

I also believe there is a "spiritual" force behind this to keep you from the One who cares and loves you most in this life. God is not a "fill in" for our insecurities or lack of answers. He is a being Who loves and reasons and communes with us. IF I never received anything in my relationship FROM God and it was only onesided with me just making things up as I go don't you think that I would eventually give it up without any response or communication from God's side. If you think that, it is no wonder that you atheists think we Christians are mindless and deceitful. I would think the same way.

That's why I left the faith - it was one-sided. I earnestly sought for God, but nothing was happening. I'm pretty sure I was deluding myself. At any point, God could barge in and be revealed to me, and I'll believe (my door is open), but I will not believe in God otherwise. If God really loves me, then why doesn't God reveal himself/itself/herself to me?

BUT it is not onesided. God is not made up in my mind. He is real. I don't stay because I am afraid. I stay because I am loved. I don't use God to fill in the gaps but God has filled in the gaps with answers to my questions which are unanswerable by science. I respect science but only to a point.

I know you believe it isn't one-sided. Just try praying to a jug of milk and see if the frequency of prayers answered is anything close to praying with God.

You are wrong when you say, "There has never been a supernatural explanation that predicted anything accurately." God's word, the Bible is FULL of prophesies and predictions that have come true and are still coming true at a rapid rate especially in this day and age.

The New Testament authors had the Old Testament in hand, and wrote it to fit as many prophecies as they could. They even misinterpreted prophecies.

If you're talking about modern-day prophecies...geez, you couldn't be more wrong. How about the slew of incorrect Second Coming Predictions? How were they wrong if the Bible clearly predicted something?

Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And it would behoove EVERYONE to find out what is going on because it is soon all going to come down and to an end. This is just the beginning of the things which are going to happen in this last day. It's important to be on the right side of the battle. I'm talking about between the natural and the spiritual realms. I realize when you said predicted you probably were talking scientifically but words are words and what you said wasn't accurate.

Science is the only game in town. When someone removes an inflamed appendix with prayer, we'll talk.

I'm going to say one more thing that may make you and others only laugh but I want you to know that God has sent me here to tell you that He is real and knows who you are and wants to give you abundant eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ.

Go back and tell God to cut out the middle man. I am willing to believe if God walks into my room, tells me how to make a vaccine against HIV, and all glory will be his and I will believe and worship forever. It's really that simple. But if the best God has is sending someone in an internet message board to convince me, I'm not impressed.

You have probably heard this before but you will never be able to say that God didn't love you enough to send someone to tell you because He has sent me. All you have to do is talk to Him and ask Him to come into your life and show you what He has planned for you. He'll do the rest so keep your eyes open. The God I'm talking about is not the gods that people prayed for to change the weather or give a basket of fruit to or offered their children to, nor is He the moon god Allah of today, nor Vashti or Buddha etc. The gods of the past or the present are all false. He is the ONLY God. The God of all creation and there is NO other gods beside Him or before Him. He is the living God the great I AM!

I already told you a bit of my story. I wanted to believe, but I refuse to believe without evidence. You guys love talking about how God is "real", and has an effect on your life, but funny how it is never an effect that is measurable. Frankly, until I see some real evidence, I will continue to think that this is all a delusion.

 

[AV1611VET]

At any point, God could barge in and be revealed to me, and I'll believe (my door is open), but I will not believe in God otherwise.

Should He fast forty days first?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Should He fast forty days first?

You're not in this conversation, could you please leave?

 

[YouareloveD]

What evidence do you feel you need? What do you currently believe? That we are all here for the sake of it? , that your life only has meaning today and once you die its over? If you read the Bible you would know Jesus is not the middle man, have you really searched the scriptures for the truth or do you just want evidence thrown on your lap without any effort?

How is your love for your mum and dad or spouse measured? I assume you love them so how do you measure love? Isn’t the love for someone close unconditional? You haven’t experienced God because you don’t truly know God. Only the Spirit knows the things of the Spirit so how can you possibly understand.

How does science explain the origin of DNA? If you understand DNA you will know there is a certain factor that science cannot explain in regards to evolution and DNA. Explain the big bang theory to me and show me proof of creation through evolution... The simple answer is you cannot because you cannot explain how heat originated or density originated, the problem you have is that there needs to be a starting point, does that mean you have faith that nothing can turn into something by itself...? I guess it is much easier for you to believe that nothing created the universe then God

In regards to the second coming errors you pointed out the Bible says we do not know the day or time Jesus will return so obviously the people who predicted these events didn’t listen to the Word of God and therefore is a human error making God and Christianity look bad .

If you want to get into the nitty gritty there is allot of stuff harder to understand then believing in Creation , God is outside of our time dimension so he can already see the beginning from the end , He isn’t affected by time , Jesus God and the Holy Spirit are triune , Jesus was born of a virgin .

Faith is a gift from God, I cannot provide evidence how a virgin birth occurred as it was a miracle, and I believe it was a miracle... read the Bible and if you have any issues just have a chat about it.

I will admit it Christians do fall we don’t always live to the level Christ intends for our lives , I fall all the time , look if you genuinely want to believe ask God for the faith.. If we are physically sick or going through hard times God can heal us and give us strength and renew our heart, mind, and body in His will.


Anyway I jumped into the conversation... feel free to reply, abuse or discuss take care mate.

 

[Nathan Poe]

What evidence do you feel you need? What do you currently believe? That we are all here for the sake of it? , that your life only has meaning today and once you die its over?

If that is true, no amount of wishful thinking is going to turn an alternative into "evidence."

If you read the Bible you would know Jesus is not the middle man, have you really searched the scriptures for the truth or do you just want evidence thrown on your lap without any effort?

No disrespect intended, but isn't the core message of Christianity about the free gift of salvation?

And is not a free gift something that is "thrown on your lap without any effort?

How is your love for your mum and dad or spouse measured? I assume you love them so how do you measure love? Isn’t the love for someone close unconditional? You haven’t experienced God because you don’t truly know God. Only the Spirit knows the things of the Spirit so how can you possibly understand.

This has what to do with anything?

How does science explain the origin of DNA? If you understand DNA you will know there is a certain factor that science cannot explain in regards to evolution and DNA.

No, but they're working on it -- are you?

Or did you acept the first "answer" that was thrown on your lap without effort?

Explain the big bang theory to me and show me proof of creation through evolution... The simple answer is you cannot because you cannot explain how heat originated or density originated, the problem you have is that there needs to be a starting point, does that mean you have faith that nothing can turn into something by itself...?

It means we don't have all the answers yet, but we're working on it -- how about you?

I guess it is much easier for you to believe that nothing created the universe then God

Actually, It's harder -- but worth the effort.

Don't you do things that are worth the effort?

In regards to the second coming errors you pointed out the Bible says we do not know the day or time Jesus will return so obviously the people who predicted these events didn’t listen to the Word of God and therefore is a human error making God and Christianity look bad.

There's a lot of that going around.

If you want to get into the nitty gritty there is allot of stuff harder to understand then believing in Creation ,

But worth the work -- for those who don't want things thrown on their lap without effort.

God is outside of our time dimension so he can already see the beginning from the end , He isn’t affected by time , Jesus God and the Holy Spirit are triune , Jesus was born of a virgin .

Ok -- composition time: take a deep breath, focus on one point, and stick with it; your paragraphs are rambling.

Faith is a gift from God, I cannot provide evidence how a virgin birth occurred as it was a miracle, and I believe it was a miracle... read the Bible and if you have any issues just have a chat about it.

We've already read the Bible, and several "chats" have already been had:

Here's one that I started not too long ago about the Birth of Jesus -- and I hadn't even gotten to the "virgin" part yet.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548341/

I'd be very interested in your input.

I will admit it Christians do fall we don’t always live to the level Christ intends for our lives , I fall all the time , look if you genuinely want to believe ask God for the faith.. If we are physically sick or going through hard times God can heal us and give us strength and renew our heart, mind, and body in His will.

Or we make the effort and do it ourselves.

Anyway I jumped into the conversation... feel free to reply, abuse or discuss take care mate.

Don't mind if I do...

 

[Greg1234]

I'm content with saying "I don't know" for things yet to be explained. I just wish religious people were like that too. It would be hasty to put "God" in the gap, because once the gap is filled, where does God go?

[/color]

You believe that there is a gap. Note that the gap is only yours, not a universal. Also note the amount of gaps in telescopic astronomy which is why "we don't know". If materialistic science "knew" (as in there is a purely materialistic process) that would hinder the fact that it is not a purely materialistic process. So I have no problem with materialism saying "it doesn't know". That's what you are supposed to say or else it fails to point to anything beyond materialistic processes. How disconcerted is a molecular biologist when a telescopic astronomer (all things will be eventually explained by telescopes) says that "he doesn't know" the cause of protein synthesis?

That's why I left the faith - it was one-sided. I earnestly sought for God, but nothing was happening. I'm pretty sure I was deluding myself. At any point, God could barge in and be revealed to me, and I'll believe (my door is open), but I will not believe in God otherwise. If God really loves me, then why doesn't God reveal himself/itself/herself to me?

[/color]

"Seeking for God" as presented here is not what is usually talked about. This seeking here is the one that arises when all evidence is evidence for a future materialistic process. Hence you have to attempt to see what you can't and the only evidence for God is evidence that is not presently evidenced. You were already a materialist before you started "seeking" and because you were a materialist, it ensured that you could never "find".

I know you believe it isn't one-sided. Just try praying to a jug of milk and see if the frequency of prayers answered is anything close to praying with God.

An understanding of prayer or (worship in general), and it's function and relegates this.

The New Testament authors had the Old Testament in hand, and wrote it to fit as many prophecies as they could. They even misinterpreted prophecies.

That's a tenet in Jesusmythism.

If you're talking about modern-day prophecies...geez, you couldn't be more wrong. How about the slew of incorrect Second Coming Predictions? How were they wrong if the Bible clearly predicted something?

Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[/color]

Irrelevant

Science is the only game in town. When someone removes an inflamed appendix with prayer, we'll talk.

"Science" as in testable repeatable observed phenomena is the only game in town. Phenomena with those credentials are already science. No need to ask material science for permission when science speaks for itself. And they don't have to conform to materialism either.

Secondly, if one removes an inflamed appendix with prayer, it is evidence for a future materialistic process.

Lastly, why stop on metaphysics? Where removing an inflamed appendix defines science, then any branch which does not directly remove an inflamed appendix is by that definition, not science. Whenever an antibiotic is discovered why only recruit metaphysics and blame the discovery on a lack of belief in God? What about those astronomers who think Gravity is responsible for certain phenomena? Who think that the earth revolves around the sun. Surely the fact that the earth revolves around the sun cannot discover antibiotics. Their gravity did not make the antibiotic so pull them in and tell them we would never have discovered this if we believed that Gravity was responsible for certain phenomena. Pull every one in. And I hope you're not conducting cross-disciplinary experiments as that is against the rules.

Go back and tell God to cut out the middle man. I am willing to believe if God walks into my room, tells me how to make a vaccine against HIV, and all glory will be his and I will believe and worship forever. It's really that simple. But if the best God has is sending someone in an internet message board to convince me, I'm not impressed.

There is no middle man. In fact you need not converse with anybody. There is a direct link between you, a created man, and your creator. It cannot be stamped out of the equation and you need not even be told by a "middle man". And what are you using the vaccine on? You better not be conducting any cross-disciplinary experiments.

I already told you a bit of my story. I wanted to believe, but I refuse to believe without evidence.

It is not a lack of evidence. It is the belief that one day the material science will discover a materialistic process. The evidence is already there. Materialism extends beyond the evidence. The only thing that needs to change is your attitude.

You guys love talking about how God is "real", and has an effect on your life, but funny how it is never an effect that is measurable. Frankly, until I see some real evidence, I will continue to think that this is all a delusion.

Ah, but believing that a 747 on a desolate planet requires a designer is not a delusion. You would never guess what the delusion is.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Ah, but believing that a 747 on a desolate planet requires a designer is not a delusion. You would never guess what the delusion is.

When we discover a 747 on a desolate planet, then maybe you'll be able to convince one of us you're right.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

You believe that there is a gap. Note that the gap is only yours, not a universal. Also note the amount of gaps in telescopic astronomy which is why "we don't know". If materialistic science "knew" (as in there is a purely materialistic process) that would hinder the fact that it is not a purely materialistic process. So I have no problem with materialism saying "it doesn't know". That's what you are supposed to say or else it fails to point to anything beyond materialistic processes. How disconcerted is a molecular biologist when a telescopic astronomer (all things will be eventually explained by telescopes) says that "he doesn't know" the cause of protein synthesis?

If this is just going to be a conversation where you spew half-baked ramblings about metaphysics with your beliefs somehow being exempt from observation or scrutiny, I have no drive to keep talking with you. It's a waste of time.

"Seeking for God" as presented here is not what is usually talked about. This seeking here is the one that arises when all evidence is evidence for a future materialistic process. Hence you have to attempt to see what you can't and the only evidence for God is evidence that is not presently evidenced. You were already a materialist before you started "seeking" and because you were a materialist, it ensured that you could never "find".

Don't tell me who I was. I actually was not a strict materialist when I was a Christian, and after I left the faith I still believed in God (just not the Christian one). When I was a Christian I would have latched on to any subjective experience if I had had one, but I didn't. All I know is my experience, and my experience led me away from Christianity and theism.

An understanding of prayer or (worship in general), and it's function and relegates this.

"Yes", "no", "maybe"? That's what I always heard from my spiritual mentors. It's a mirage.

That's a tenet in Jesusmythism.

It's also a tenet of common sense.

Irrelevant

How is it irrelevant? "End-times" prophecies have been misinterpreted for centuries, and that's irrelevant when we're discussing the Bible's ability to be a prophetic document?

"Science" as in testable repeatable observed phenomena is the only game in town. Phenomena with those credentials are already science. No need to ask material science for permission when science speaks for itself. And they don't have to conform to materialism either.

Secondly, if one removes an inflamed appendix with prayer, it is evidence for a future materialistic process.

More philosophical mumbo jumbo

Lastly, why stop on metaphysics? Where removing an inflamed appendix defines science, then any branch which does not directly remove an inflamed appendix is by that definition, not science. Whenever an antibiotic is discovered why only recruit metaphysics and blame the discovery on a lack of belief in God? What about those astronomers who think Gravity is responsible for certain phenomena? Who think that the earth revolves around the sun. Surely the fact that the earth revolves around the sun cannot discover antibiotics. Their gravity did not make the antibiotic so pull them in and tell them we would never have discovered this if we believed that Gravity was responsible for certain phenomena. Pull every one in. And I hope you're not conducting cross-disciplinary experiments as that is against the rules.

What on earth are you talking about...?

There is no middle man. In fact you need not converse with anybody. There is a direct link between you, a created man, and your creator. It cannot be stamped out of the equation and you need not even be told by a "middle man". And what are you using the vaccine on? You better not be conducting any cross-disciplinary experiments.

The user I was replying to claimed to be a messenger from God, hence the middle-man talk.

It is not a lack of evidence. It is the belief that one day the material science will discover a materialistic process. The evidence is already there. Materialism extends beyond the evidence. The only thing that needs to change is your attitude.

Are you a freshman philosophy student by any chance?

Ah, but believing that a 747 on a desolate planet requires a designer is not a delusion. You would never guess what the delusion is.

Thus is a pointless analogy. 747s do not reproduce with variation. How many times have you been corrected on this? Or is it a materialist conspiracy?

 

[Nostromo]

And yet, this is only an assumption on your part, also, am I correct? There has been no DISCOVERED or PROVEN reason for us to think that intelligence IS an emergent property of the physical system. It really is ONLY an assmption, isn't it?

I don't even think it is an assumption, no. If the will was the product of the physical workings of the brain, you would expect it to be altered by chemicals, physical damage and electromagnetic interference, and it is.

Depressants/anti-depressants cause a change in the will that makes absolutely no sense if the will is an entity separate from the physical brain.

Even in the event that we had zero knowledge of the brain, we still have no evidence to support the idea that the mind is a non-physical phenomenon.

 

[Inan3]

I know you believe it isn't one-sided. Just try praying to a jug of milk and see if the frequency of prayers answered is anything close to praying with God.

I'm sorry for your struggles Lion Heart but many times God has answered my prayers. Now I want to make sure you do not take that as a slam against you saying you haven't had your prayers answered. It sometimes takes removing hindrances to prayer to have your prayers answered. It doesn't mean you are bad or God doesn't love you it only means that sometimes we have things that block the prayers. I just want to encourage you that God DOES answer prayers and if you don't give up He will answer yours if you come to Him in the right manner. Don't read anymore into to that just know there is a way to approach God. It just takes learning how.

The New Testament authors had the Old Testament in hand, and wrote it to fit as many prophecies as they could. They even misinterpreted prophecies.

Not so Lion Heart but I won't try to convince you here.

If you're talking about modern-day prophecies...geez, you couldn't be more wrong. How about the slew of incorrect Second Coming Predictions? How were they wrong if the Bible clearly predicted something?

Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not talking about modern day predictions I'm talking about Bible prophecies. These predictions that try to predict the coming of the Lord are wrong. In Mat. 24 Jesus said no man knows that hour. Although there are many signs which point to the time when it will happen no one can know the day.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

People are foolish and in error when they give dates as to when the Lord will return. It is okay to look at the signs of the times and know the time is close but we cannot predict a date. We can speculate but could be off by hundreds of years. One great sign is that Israel is now a nation. They have not been a nation for for almost 2000 years and Jesus' reference to the blossoming of the fig tree is believed to be a reference of them coming back as a nation. In reference to that Jesus said this is just the "beginning" of things coming. What does "beginning" mean? Five years? Ten years? Fifty years? We don't know for sure. If we look at other scriptures in regards to this we can see that He says,

"Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What in unknown is how long is a generation? Is he referring to Israel here? We can only keep our eyes open and be ready and be aware. It seems to be close at hand now and I only tell you these things so you can be aware of what is coming. How you respond, of course, is up to you.

Science is the only game in town. When someone removes an inflamed appendix with prayer, we'll talk.

That has happened and many other healings. And it is still happening in this day and age. Miracles still happen. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

Go back and tell God to cut out the middle man. I am willing to believe if God walks into my room, tells me how to make a vaccine against HIV, and all glory will be his and I will believe and worship forever. It's really that simple. But if the best God has is sending someone in an internet message board to convince me, I'm not impressed.

That is how God has chosen to tell people the good news by using the foolishness of preaching. He knows some people are on a high horse and think they deserve it right from the top themselves but if you want to hear from the Top you have to go His way. So I'm going to let you tell Him. He can hear you. I suggest you use a little humility, though.

I already told you a bit of my story. I wanted to believe, but I refuse to believe without evidence. You guys love talking about how God is "real", and has an effect on your life, but funny how it is never an effect that is measurable. Frankly, until I see some real evidence, I will continue to think that this is all a delusion.

Maybe sometime you could tell me how or what you were believing. I know lots of times people miss it because what they thought was the way to God was not. There is way that seems right to man but the end is the way of death.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I'm sorry for your struggles Lion Heart but many times God has answered my prayers. Now I want to make sure you do not take that as a slam against you saying you haven't had your prayers answered. It sometimes takes removing hindrances to prayer to have your prayers answered. It doesn't mean you are bad or God doesn't love you it only means that sometimes we have things that block the prayers. I just want to encourage you that God DOES answer prayers and if you don't give up He will answer yours if you come to Him in the right manner. Don't read anymore into to that just know there is a way to approach God. It just takes learning how.

You make a lot of points about prayer which I will address below

Not so Lion Heart but I won't try to convince you here.

I'm not talking about modern day predictions I'm talking about Bible prophecies. These predictions that try to predict the coming of the Lord are wrong. In Mat. 24 Jesus said no man knows that hour. Although there are many signs which point to the time when it will happen no one can know the day.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

People are foolish and in error when they give dates as to when the Lord will return. It is okay to look at the signs of the times and know the time is close but we cannot predict a date. We can speculate but could be off by hundreds of years. One great sign is that Israel is now a nation. They have not been a nation for for almost 2000 years and Jesus' reference to the blossoming of the fig tree is believed to be a reference of them coming back as a nation. In reference to that Jesus said this is just the "beginning" of things coming. What does "beginning" mean? Five years? Ten years? Fifty years? We don't know for sure. If we look at other scriptures in regards to this we can see that He says,

"Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What in unknown is how long is a generation? Is he referring to Israel here? We can only keep our eyes open and be ready and be aware. It seems to be close at hand now and I only tell you these things so you can be aware of what is coming. How you respond, of course, is up to you.

I find no Biblical prophecy fulfillment to be convincing. All they had to do was write the the story of Jesus to fit the prophecies.

That has happened and many other healings. And it is still happening in this day and age. Miracles still happen. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

I'll just redirect you to this site:
Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

Here's a quote on this subject:

"[FONT=arial, Helvetica]How do we know, for sure, that God does not answer prayers? As described in section 1, we simply pray and watch what happens. What we find is that nothing happens. No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincerely they pray, no matter how worthy the prayer, nothing ever happens. If we pray for anything that is impossible -- for example, regenerating an amputated limb or moving Mt. Everest to Newark, NJ -- it never happens. We all know that. If we pray for anything that is possible, the results of the prayer will unfold in exact accord with the normal laws of probability. In every situation where we statistically analyze the effects of prayers, looking at both the success AND the failure of prayer, we find that prayer has zero effect. Prayers for amputees never work. Medical prayers never work. Prayers for "good people" never work. Battlefield prayers never work."[/FONT]

That is how God has chosen to tell people the good news by using the foolishness of preaching. He knows some people are on a high horse and think they deserve it right from the top themselves but if you want to hear from the Top you have to go His way. So I'm going to let you tell Him. He can hear you. I suggest you use a little humility, though.

You're telling ME to be humble? You're the one claiming to have a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, who has a special interest in YOU, despite YOU being a quite ordinary person out of billions on this planet on a quite ordinary star in a quite ordinary solar system, which is one out of >100,000,000,000 stars in this quite ordinary galaxy, which is one out of >100,000,000,000 galaxies in the known universe. You are the one with the audacity to claim that the Creator of the Universe is looking out for you. Please don't call me arrogant. I'm the one with perspective.

Maybe sometime you could tell me how or what you were believing. I know lots of times people miss it because what they thought was the way to God was not. There is way that seems right to man but the end is the way of death.

I believed in Jesus, went to a non-denominational Christian Church that was pretty seeker-friendly and very involved in community service in my hometown. It was a good community. My family is very religious and I admire them all still. If you want to find somewhere my doctrine was wrong, you won't find it. I even went to a Christian university for college. If anything, gaining a perspective of the world through the study of science, literature, history, philosophy, and theology made me realize that the world and the universe are too complex for such a simple explanation as Christianity.

 

[Inan3]

You're telling ME to be humble? You're the one claiming to have a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, who has a special interest in YOU, despite YOU being a quite ordinary person out of billions on this planet on a quite ordinary star in a quite ordinary solar system, which is one out of >100,000,000,000 stars in this quite ordinary galaxy, which is one out of >100,000,000,000 galaxies in the known universe. You are the one with the audacity to claim that the Creator of the Universe is looking out for you. Please don't call me arrogant. I'm the one with perspective..

I'm sorry it sounded that way. I wasn't saying you weren't humble I was just suggesting when you go before God that you (and me) should always go with at least an attitude of humility.

I believed in Jesus, went to a non-denominational Christian Church that was pretty seeker-friendly and very involved in community service in my hometown. It was a good community. My family is very religious and I admire them all still. If you want to find somewhere my doctrine was wrong, you won't find it. I even went to a Christian university for college. If anything, gaining a perspective of the world through the study of science, literature, history, philosophy, and theology made me realize that the world and the universe are too complex for such a simple explanation as Christianity.

Thanks for sharing that with me. I didn't need to find somewhere that your doctrine is wrong. I can see that everytime you write something. I suspect your error is that you may have gone through all the motions of Christianity or what you thought was Christianity but you never had a relationship with the GOD of Christianity. If you had ever really given your life to Jesus Christ, it wouldn't have mattered WHAT you learned at the UNIVERSITY (Christian or not). You may have discoved that the world and the universe are too complex for such a simple explanation of what you think Christianity is but you have never discovered anything that is too complex for the God of Christianity!! The wisdom of men is foolishness to God. His ways are so much higher than our ways that unless we are born from above we don't even get an inkling of how vast and great He is. You can argue till you are blue in the face and show me all the faithless websites you want but they will never wipe away the fact that God does answer this one insignificant, small, woman's prayers and millions more. He does grow out limbs and fill in teeth and heal cancer and deliver heroin addicts and just about any other miracle in our day and time. God is real and cares about even the hairs on your head. You can resist Him as long as you want, that is your God given right but it would also be the most foolish thing you have ever done. I will be praying for you and God does answer my prayers. I know He has already reached out to you and so do you. Don't turn your back on Him because of the lies that have taught to you in the "non"-educational system by ungodly men who just keep perpetuating the lies over and over and have no proof to offer, just lies.

 

[Delphiki]

Thanks for sharing that with me. I didn't need to find somewhere that your doctrine is wrong. I can see that everytime you write something. I suspect your error is that you may have gone through all the motions of Christianity or what you thought was Christianity but you never had a relationship with the GOD of Christianity....

This is what's known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. You can't possibly know what the intentions of someone actually are regarding whether or not they were truly seeking a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the whole 9 yards of being a Christian. The fact is, most of us ex-believers truly found frustration in the fact that we sacrificed our time, emotions, and energy just trying to be one of those people who God literally talks to on a personal level. Coming to the realization that the people who say God talks to them are either simply lying to fit in the social church circle, or are insane, was a huge relief. Granted, those in my position are usually embarrassed at our prior foolishness and wont to fit in and regret flushing away much of our lives devoting ourselves to something that wasn't there the whole time. Whether you choose to believe it or not, many of us were once every bit as convinced at one point as you now are. You just seem to lack the ability to concede even that half-centimeter to picture what it would be like if everything you knew was a lie - because you're probably happier this way, and you probably are the kind of person who can't stand to doubt anything, whether that's your choice or not.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Thanks for sharing that with me. I didn't need to find somewhere that your doctrine is wrong. I can see that everytime you write something. I suspect your error is that you may have gone through all the motions of Christianity or what you thought was Christianity but you never had a relationship with the GOD of Christianity. If you had ever really given your life to Jesus Christ, it wouldn't have mattered WHAT you learned at the UNIVERSITY (Christian or not). You may have discoved that the world and the universe are too complex for such a simple explanation of what you think Christianity is but you have never discovered anything that is too complex for the God of Christianity!! The wisdom of men is foolishness to God. His ways are so much higher than our ways that unless we are born from above we don't even get an inkling of how vast and great He is. You can argue till you are blue in the face and show me all the faithless websites you want but they will never wipe away the fact that God does answer this one insignificant, small, woman's prayers and millions more. He does grow out limbs and fill in teeth and heal cancer and deliver heroin addicts and just about any other miracle in our day and time. God is real and cares about even the hairs on your head. You can resist Him as long as you want, that is your God given right but it would also be the most foolish thing you have ever done. I will be praying for you and God does answer my prayers. I know He has already reached out to you and so do you. Don't turn your back on Him because of the lies that have taught to you in the "non"-educational system by ungodly men who just keep perpetuating the lies over and over and have no proof to offer, just lies.

I think this post is the evidence that you and I will never see eye to eye and that you will never understand the reasons I left Christianity.

First bold. You assume that I didn't have a "real" relationship with Jesus, because after all, it makes no sense to you why someone with a "real" relationship would leave the faith. That's simply unfair. I was extremely sincere in my beliefs, and most of my life revolved around them for a long time. I wasn't "going through the motions", because I sincerely believed that I had a relationship with Jesus. My departure from the faith took years, and I resisted it a lot early on.

Second bold. If you are correct about the nature of the universe and that God made it, studying the universe should tell us about God. Through my studies of nature (I majored in biology, I'm doing postgraduate schooling now) and philosophy (minored in it) I could not make Christianity fit the real world. One of the most humble things you can do in this world is admit that you were wrong about something when what you believe or hold to be true does not match reality.

Third bold. You lack perspective. I really think that is the main thing that keeps people in religion. They don't realize the inconsistencies with what they believe with the big picture. First of all, there has never been an amputee grow an arm back, unless you're talking about lizards (maybe God is a lizard?). Secondly, I find it odd that you live in America, and by the standards of the world, are wealthy, healthy, safe, and secure, and God is here to answer all of your prayers at the drop of a hat. And every 30 seconds a child dies of starvation somewhere else on this planet. I simply don't understand how you could believe that God is looking out for you to help you with your mundane problems yet lets millions of children starve each year. You have either a lack of perspective or extreme arrogance.

Last bold. Education is ungodly? Education is the reason you can get chemotherapy if you have cancer, not God. Education is the single most liberating and important thing in modern society. Why demonize education?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

This is what's known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. You can't possibly know what the intentions of someone actually are regarding whether or not they were truly seeking a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the whole 9 yards of being a Christian. The fact is, most of us ex-believers truly found frustration in the fact that we sacrificed our time, emotions, and energy just trying to be one of those people who God literally talks to on a personal level. Coming to the realization that the people who say God talks to them are either simply lying to fit in the social church circle, or are insane, was a huge relief. Granted, those in my position are usually embarrassed at our prior foolishness and wont to fit in and regret flushing away much of our lives devoting ourselves to something that wasn't there the whole time. Whether you choose to believe it or not, many of us were once every bit as convinced at one point as you now are. You just seem to lack the ability to concede even that half-centimeter to picture what it would be like if everything you knew was a lie - because you're probably happier this way, and you probably are the kind of person who can't stand to doubt anything, whether that's your choice or not.

I agree with all of this

 

[AV1611VET]

I agree with all of this

My pastor says the biggest thing that will expose a person who isn't truly saved is: time.

Unless they're truly born again, but going prodigal, they won't be able to stick with Christianity.

Eventually, that yoke placed on them that Jesus said is 'easy', becomes too much to handle somehow, and they 'see the light' -- (another light, actually).

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Inan3]

I think this post is the evidence that you and I will never see eye to eye and that you will never understand the reasons I left Christianity.

I realize we do see things very differently but never say never LH. God wants you to know Him in a way you have not known Him before.

First bold. You assume that I didn't have a "real" relationship with Jesus, because after all, it makes no sense to you why someone with a "real" relationship would leave the faith. That's simply unfair. I was extremely sincere in my beliefs, and most of my life revolved around them for a long time. I wasn't "going through the motions", because I sincerely believed that I had a relationship with Jesus. My departure from the faith took years, and I resisted it a lot early on.

So are you saying you had a "real" relationship with Jesus? That you knew Him?

Second bold. If you are correct about the nature of the universe and that God made it, studying the universe should tell us about God. Through my studies of nature (I majored in biology, I'm doing postgraduate schooling now) and philosophy (minored in it) I could not make Christianity fit the real world. One of the most humble things you can do in this world is admit that you were wrong about something when what you believe or hold to be true does not match reality.

Well, I cannot answer you because I have no idea what you are talking about. You give no specific details. But I know the scriptures say the "world" by wisdom knew not God. It says the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. Maybe that is why it is so easy for me to hear from God because I am not trying to go to Him in my wisdom or education. I just simply go to Him and believe Him. I'm not trying to figure it all but somehow I do. He gives me wisdom beyond myself. That may not set with you but I know it happens. I know He talks with me in my spirit. I have learned to hear Him. He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

Third bold. You lack perspective. I really think that is the main thing that keeps people in religion. They don't realize the inconsistencies with what they believe with the big picture. First of all, there has never been an amputee grow an arm back, unless you're talking about lizards (maybe God is a lizard?). Secondly, I find it odd that you live in America, and by the standards of the world, are wealthy, healthy, safe, and secure, and God is here to answer all of your prayers at the drop of a hat. And every 30 seconds a child dies of starvation somewhere else on this planet. I simply don't understand how you could believe that God is looking out for you to help you with your mundane problems yet lets millions of children starve each year. You have either a lack of perspective or extreme arrogance.

I have to go right now but I will try to get back to this at another time.

Last bold. Education is ungodly? Education is the reason you can get chemotherapy if you have cancer, not God. Education is the single most liberating and important thing in modern society. Why demonize education?

I'll have to get back to this later, also. Sorry about that.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

So are you saying you had a "real" relationship with Jesus? That you knew Him?

How do you have a relationship with someone you can't touch, see, smell, hold, converse, take walks and eat with?

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you have a relationship with someone you can't touch, see, smell, hold, converse, take walks and eat with?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.