for the agnostic.....

[ISteveB]

Too many bible verses from you once again Steve, and a very boring sermon.

It's a pity that you think learning is boring.
This is why I find atheism a waste of intellect.
It's so full of it's own egos, there's no reasoning, no room for learning, and definitely no rationality, or logic.

You found it amusingly sad and ironic that I was critical of a god that had men women and children slaughtered. Sure, they were guilty of the heinous crime of child sacrifice, but how did your god punish these child killers? He got his followers to kill their children.

And you wonder why... I hope.
Well, all I'm reading here is that you think evil is good, and good is evil.
I provided links below to several articles that deal with this, by a Doctorate professor.

Have you ever thought about what kind of person could be capable of putting child after child to the sword? Would you have been capable of carrying out such slaughter believing it to be at the behest your god? It would make you no better than the ones who were sacrificing their children or the being that supposedly commanded you to do it.

Hmm..... gee..... I've been reading the bible for over 4 decades, have read it cover to cover, several times,......
What do you think?
Why do you think I was able to present those passages which show why God's judgment came on the canaanite peoples?
www.clayjones.net
Here's a blog for you, and on his blog, he has written about the crimes of the canaanites, and why judgment came on them, for their crimes.
I'm curious if you've ever thought about why criminal behavior is so prominent, and why people who speak out against, and fight against crime are vilified.

https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/canaanites/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/canaanite-punishment/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/innocent-canaanites/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/kill-the-canaanites-animals/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/04/canaanite-children/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/05/why-couldnt-israel-adopt-canaanite-children/
I think you can figure out the rest of the website.

I think I will settle for shame and everlasting contempt rather than your everlasting life. The idea of spending eternity with people who excuse the barbaric excesses of their god is something I could do without.

When people say things like this, it's a demonstration to me that they've neither actually thought about it, nor thought it through.
I hope you never actually get what you think you want. It's a never ending nightmare from which there is no escape.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I see a lot of things, so?

Ah. You don't see, then.

You've proven it for me by your comments.

No, I haven't. But you have proven you're not interested in learning.

Again, you've proven it for my by your comments, reactions, and refusal to come follow Jesus.

I love the way you refute yourself. "You have proven that you are wrong by the way you disagree with me. If you were right, you'd be agreeing with me."

Ironic..... I have in fact rationally defended my beliefs.

That sentence is about as wrong as it is possible to be. Not ironic, not in fact, not rationally, not defending your beliefs.

You however don't see what rationality is, because it is not the rationality which you think is rational.

(shrug) You're wrong, again.

What part of this says that God, in his wisdom, has chosen the wisdom of this world to make himself known through arguing with people who believe themselves to be erudite, and educated?

None at all. But just because the Bible says something - as I've explained to you before - that does not make it true. you have to justify it yourself with reasoned argument, a term you seem completely unfamiliar with.

You just don't know what you're talking about, and don't like what is being presented.

Steve, I've been here a long time, and have enjoyed debates with many, many Christians. I have, in fact, been debating Christians for rather longer than you have, if you include the fact that I started doing so long before joining this site. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am following the rules of this Christian website.
You however are just complaining. Either step up, or step off.

I gave you a chance, Steve. I thought if it was presented sufficiently clearly you might realise your mistake. Now, you've made it clear that you are not in the slightest interested in debating on a debating forum.
That being the case, allow me, as a Veteran of Christian Forums, to introduce you to a place you haven't seen before. It's my Ignore List.
Goodbye, Steve.

 

[ISteveB]

Ah. You don't see, then.

No, I haven't. But you have proven you're not interested in learning.

You haven't provided anything to learn.
What you have said is that if I don't do it your way, then I'm wrong.
Well... I've yet to see your way work, so why would I try a method which I've observed fail for decades?

I love the way you refute yourself. "You have proven that you are wrong by the way you disagree with me. If you were right, you'd be agreeing with me."

It's not me you have to deal with. Nor me you have to agree with.
that you need to say that just shows that you're not learning.

That sentence is about as wrong as it is possible to be. Not ironic, not in fact, not rationally, not defending your beliefs.

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


Of course it's wrong.
Your thoughts are based in the dirt, and never reach beyond this realm. God's Thoughts--- that which I provide you.... they're higher than the heavens.
So.... I'm confident that you believe you are right.

(shrug) You're wrong, again.

scary.... isn't it. There's no possible way you could be wrong, so everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

None at all. But just because the Bible says something - as I've explained to you before - that does not make it true. you have to justify it yourself with reasoned argument, a term you seem completely unfamiliar with.

And just because you say something that doesn't make what you say true.

Jesus said-- I AM Truth.
It doesn't require your agreement, nor your--- or mine for that matter-- approval.
It simply is.

what we do with that Truth is what makes our life everlasting, or ever perishing.

Steve, I've been here a long time, and have enjoyed debates with many, many Christians. I have, in fact, been debating Christians for rather longer than you have, if you include the fact that I started doing so long before joining this site. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

You've been debating christians longer than I have....

I'm guessing that's supposed to mean something to me?
Because if you're younger than 43, then I've been following Jesus longer than you've been alive.

oh.... and so that we're clear here.... I have never debated a christian.
Not as an atheist.
When I did live an epicurean's life, we actually talked.

It's a pity that you think a debate is actually going to prove anything of value and genuine worth.

I am further amused that you actually think your "debating christians rather longer than your have" actually makes me tremble, or that I should somehow be impressed by this.

I grasp the idea that you feel that you are intellectually superior. that was a gimme with your first post.
In my world view-- you are a human being, who was created in the likeness and image of God.
This means that you're neither better than, nor worse than I am.
If you do have intellectual superiority over me, I've yet to see it. So far you've done nothing but complain. I'm not interested in your complaints.
You don't like what I have to say--- fine. Whoopdi-do.
So far, I haven't seen where your self-embued thought-police-dom is supposed to be my concern.

I gave you a chance, Steve. I thought if it was presented sufficiently clearly you might realise your mistake. Now, you've made it clear that you are not in the slightest interested in debating on a debating forum.

I made it clear before. Did you misunderstand what I'd said before?
Allow me to make it clear to you.

From the middle of the first century CE.
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

then, from a few minutes later, in the middle of the first century CE.

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

What I hope you understand is that using what you consider the appropriate manner of discussion is not how God does this.
If he really just wanted to bowl you over with words, he'd simply stick his head through space, and whisper--- Hi IA. So, what seems to be the problem here?
Except his whisper.... well, when you can hold the cosmos in the span of your hand, it'd destroy our ears, because it'd be booming.
So, he's apparently chosen to send people whom you think are inferior, stupid, and dolts to show you how he does things.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,​

It's the difference between your way, and God's Way.

That being the case, allow me, as a Veteran of Christian Forums, to introduce you to a place you haven't seen before. It's my Ignore List.
Goodbye, Steve.

Ciao.
Have a nice eternity.

 

[Amittai]

... God is inviting you to come talk to Him.

He might well be but He will have to do so by other means. You've quoted a lot of Bible texts and you haven't addressed the slaughter narratives as to their format and especially their meaning. Not only some accounts were triumphalistic (usual at the time) stating that "our side" had obliterated the other side (there is always an admission later that the other side had largely survived), this was usual for nations then (as in some parts of the world now), things are attributed to God's mind that were in the story tellers' minds. A decent apologist would point out we are obliged to not take a lot of Bible texts (like a lot of other texts) literally literally. A decent apologist would ask enquirers whether they want to be Falwellists / Kuhlmannists. he would ask himself the same question even more. Paradox challenges us to discern when God was made in their image and when revealed by Himself. Steve you are not making enough use of wider logic. Scriptures are supposed to be accompanied by meaning as hooks are supposed to be accompanied by coats and visual aids by a lecture.

 

[Amittai]

It's a pity that you think learning is boring ...

This is a good point

Why do you think I was able to present those passages which show why God's judgment came on the canaanite peoples?
www.clayjones.net
Here's a blog for you, and on his blog, he has written about the crimes of the canaanites, and why judgment came on them, for their crimes.
I'm curious if you've ever thought about why criminal behavior is so prominent, and why people who speak out against, and fight against crime are vilified.

https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/canaanites/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/canaanite-punishment/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/innocent-canaanites/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/kill-the-canaanites-animals/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/04/canaanite-children/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/05/why-couldnt-israel-adopt-canaanite-children/ ...

Before we look it up you need to explain the meaning for us in the here and now as between us and God.

I hope you never actually get what you think you want. It's a never ending nightmare from which there is no escape.

This is too vague. Nearly all of us are in a nightmare already and we need to see something towards something different, rather than the categorical 100 % prediction of even worse. You don't give us enough clues and enough information. You make it sound like God has got to do with weddings in alleyways. Your lack of information provides us with zero incentive and zero motivation.

 

[Par5]

It's a pity that you think learning is boring.
This is why I find atheism a waste of intellect.
It's so full of it's own egos, there's no reasoning, no room for learning, and definitely no rationality, or logic.




And you wonder why... I hope.
Well, all I'm reading here is that you think evil is good, and good is evil.
I provided links below to several articles that deal with this, by a Doctorate professor.




Hmm..... gee..... I've been reading the bible for over 4 decades, have read it cover to cover, several times,......
What do you think?
Why do you think I was able to present those passages which show why God's judgment came on the canaanite peoples?
www.clayjones.net
Here's a blog for you, and on his blog, he has written about the crimes of the canaanites, and why judgment came on them, for their crimes.
I'm curious if you've ever thought about why criminal behavior is so prominent, and why people who speak out against, and fight against crime are vilified.

https://www.clayjones.net/2015/03/canaanites/
Canaanite Destruction Not Genocide but Capital Punishment
Were There Any Innocent Canaanites?
Why Kill the Canaanites' Animals?
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/04/canaanite-children/
https://www.clayjones.net/2015/05/why-couldnt-israel-adopt-canaanite-children/
I think you can figure out the rest of the website.




When people say things like this, it's a demonstration to me that they've neither actually thought about it, nor thought it through.
I hope you never actually get what you think you want. It's a never ending nightmare from which there is no escape.

I never said that learning was boring. I said it is your sermons that are boring.
You said that I appeared to think that evil was good and good was evil. There was nothing in my post to suggest any such thing, and you never answered my question as to whether or not you would be capable of slaughtering children if commanded to do so by your god. So I ask you again, could you?
Even if you think I lack reasoning, rationality, and logic, I have sufficient enough of all three to determine that genocide is wrong.
As for you saying that people who speak out against and fight against crime being vilified, I don't know anyone who doesn't see the need to fight crime. The only people I imagine who would be against fighting crime are those doing the crimes. See Steve, I have enough reasoning power to realize that criminality is wrong.
Thanks for your links, but no thanks. Christian apologetics websites are as boring as your sermons.
As for receiving an eternity of shame and contempt and a never-ending nightmare. That sort of thing only strikes fear into the hearts of believers who have been indoctrinated with such nonsense. My reasoning, damn that reasoning, has lead me to conclude that such a thing is just that, nonsense!

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Accurately perceived.... to see as he actually is, and not as we think he is.

How has he described himself?
Not how you think it is, but what he's said about himself.

You have not showed any evidence that god describes himself anywhere.

That's the whole point of biblical Christianity.....
God provides us with the evidence himself.
Acts 17:11 says that there was a people who didn't just take the word of those who said things. they actually searched the documents from which the claims were made to see if the claims made were true, and had some basis to them.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22, we're told--- test all things. Abhor that which is evil, and cling to that which is good.
So..... not wasting time on my word---- DUH! We explicitly don't want you to just take our word!!!!!
We explicitly want you to check what we say, do what Jesus said, so you can know for yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the entire basis of biblical Christianity.

Yes and I have done these things and God never provided the evidence.

AFTER He made himself real to me.
All I had before were just the claims made by others.
As this is so humongous an issue, I no longer wanted what others told me. I wanted to know, for myself, God himself.

Specifically how did God make himself real to you?

Did it ever occur to you that you did it wrong?

If I did then God makes it impossibly difficult to actually know what he requires of us before he will reveal himself to us. If honestly studying the bible, praying to him and doing what the bible said to the best of my ability is not enough then that is not on me.

Losing faith in God is not an easy process, I had a lot to lose. It is agonizing at times and I wanted to know He existed when I started to doubt because of studying the bible and epistemology. It was when I actually started to think for myself and valued truth over anything else is when I realized there is not any good reasons to believe God exists. If God want me to know He exist He can do that at any time He wants. I am waiting and want to know if He does in fact exist.

If you didn't read the bible until after those 18 years, and then decided that you thought it was silly, and supernatural nonsense, AFTER those 18 years-- as now evidenced by the comments you made the other day about goalpost moving--- then you did not do it right, and you only figured that it's not working the way you were doing it, so it must be false.
The "goal posts" have not moved.... EVER. Knowing God has been exactly the same for millennia. People who've come to know God have done it the same way for at least 4 millennia.
So.... while I understand that this idea of "moving the goal posts" seems like a popular excuse.... they are the ones who want toe goal posts to move, so they can justify their ignorance.

your making strawmen and reaching for straws. I never said I never read the bible while I was a christian. Sheesh.

Then stop talking to me, and go talk to God.
According to Isaiah 1:18, 41:1, and 41:21, God's inviting you to come, and present your cause to him.

“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.

“Keep silence before Me, O coastlands,
And let the people renew their strength!
Let them come near, then let them speak;
Let us come near together for judgment.

“Present your case,” says the LORD.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.

I don't know about you, but this sounds like an open invitation to me.
Let's reason together.....
Let them come near, let them speak. Let US come near together for judgment.
Present you case.
Bring forth your strong reasons.....
Sounds like an open door to me.

Tried it, no response.

Well then, I'd say you're screwing yourself. You're excluding yourself out of know the truth.
So....

Nope. I am waiting here if God wants to show me He exists.

God gives us reasons to believe he's real.
All we can do is to start with the claims, and then put the claims to the test.


stop talking to me, and go talk to God.
According to Isaiah 1:18, 41:1, and 41:21, God's inviting you to come, and present your cause to him.

“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.

“Keep silence before Me, O coastlands,
And let the people renew their strength!
Let them come near, then let them speak;
Let us come near together for judgment.

“Present your case,” says the LORD.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.

I don't know about you, but this sounds like an open invitation to me.
Let's reason together.....
Let them come near, let them speak. Let US come near together for judgment.
Present you case.
Bring forth your strong reasons.....
Sounds like an open door to me.

These sound like pretty simple claims.
Justifying yourself with me isn't going to help you--- not even remotely, or in the slightest.

God is inviting you to come talk to Him.

Done it, no response.

 

[ISteveB]

He might well be but He will have to do so by other means.

He's chosen the only means he has because he knows that it carries the greatest effectiveness.
When you create your own cosmos, using your own materials, which are not YHVH's, you can set your own rules. As long as you're in YHVH's cosmos, you're subject to his rules.

You've quoted a lot of Bible texts and you haven't addressed the slaughter narratives as to their format and especially their meaning.

Actually, I have.
And I'll do it again.
God warned them they had a limited amount of time to turn from their sin, and repent--- over 400 years. They refused, so he judged their sin. EXACTLY as he'll do with you, and your sin.
It's not that hard to see it.
Your dislike, disagreement, and even contempt for it will only guarantee that you experience what you find so disdainful.

Not only some accounts were triumphalistic (usual at the time) stating that "our side" had obliterated the other side (there is always an admission later that the other side had largely survived), this was usual for nations then (as in some parts of the world now), things are attributed to God's mind that were in the story tellers' minds.

And?
I don't know about you, but having studied history, I've learned some lessons.
1- I wasn't available to prevent the history which did take place, from taking place.
2- this means that as much as I may not like the history that did take place, I don't have the right to act like a sunday afternoon armchair quarterback, or armchair referee, and tell others how they should've done it better and differently.
3- the best I can do is to learn the lessons of history, so I do not fall into the trap of repeating it, and suffering the consequences which history's lessons sought to warn me, so I could escape.
4- Even Teddy Roosevelt stated as much in his 1910 Sorbonne speech.
TR Center - The Man in the Arena

A decent apologist would point out we are obliged to not take a lot of Bible texts (like a lot of other texts) literally literally.

Oh, well.... hmm..... gee......
I guess that makes me more an honest apologist, instead of a decent one.
I prefer honesty over decency.
Remember--- Jesus said that we are to treat others as we ourselves want to be treated. As much as I might find it uncomfortable, and even painful at times, I prefer honesty over all else. So, I am honest with others.
If you prefer decency, you're talking to the wrong person.

A decent apologist would ask enquirers whether they want to be Falwellists / Kuhlmannists.

rotflmto......
As I'm neither a falwellist, nor a kuhlmannist, and I am not interested in being either, why would I want you to be one of those?
Again.... I'm honest, not decent.
If you want decency, you're talking to the wrong person.

he would ask himself the same question even more.

Why?
Because you need them to fit into a mold you yourself clearly despise?

Where I come from, the following has long applied.

Let the righteous strike me;
It shall be a kindness.
And let him rebuke me;
It shall be as excellent oil;
Let my head not refuse it.

Paradox challenges us to discern when God was made in their image and when revealed by Himself. Steve you are not making enough use of wider logic. Scriptures are supposed to be accompanied by meaning as hooks are supposed to be accompanied by coats and visual aids by a lecture.

not wide enough.... Now that's ironic, because Jesus said something about that wider "logic."

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

As such, I'm good with using narrower logic. Jesus made it quite clear that taking too broad a way of viewing things will result in our destruction.

If however you prefer academic lectures, I'd say go to college.
I did my college, and I found professors only used what was needed to instruct us. We had to take the time to learn. Which meant--- we had to focus on the narrower use of logic.

 

[ISteveB]

This is too vague. Nearly all of us are in a nightmare already and we need to see something towards something different, rather than the categorical 100 % prediction of even worse. You don't give us enough clues and enough information.

Well..... how detailed do you want me to get?
One description Jesus gave was an outer darkness where there will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth.
Another was a place where the worm that eats dead flesh never dies, and the fire that burns is never put out.
Yet another description is a place where the smoke of their torment rises day and night forever.
A place which is exactly the same, forever, without any changes.
Is that what you want?
To experience the very worst of your nightmares, without end, or reprieve?
To experience mockings, taunting laughter, to live with the constant reminders that you could have told God yes, but instead said no, and you long for the opportunity to once again choose?
For this to take place.... not for seconds, or even moments, but for days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millennia, centuries of millennia, millennia of millennia, millions, and billions, and trillions or endless eons, without end. And when you've been there for 20 trillion eons..... you'll realize that you'll be there for another 20 trillion, and that will be mere picoseconds compared to eternity.

Jesus died so you'd not have to suffer that ignominy.

He died so your sin debt may be wiped clean, and you could live in a paradise with you in mind, so that when you've been there for hundreds of quintillions of millennia, it's only the beginning of a paradise, where you can learn, grown, laugh, enjoy friendships that will never end, and live in a civilization where peace, and righteousness reigns?

Your choice.....
Paradise or misery?

You make it sound like God has got to do with weddings in alleyways. Your lack of information provides us with zero incentive and zero motivation.

Yeah... except that's not what I said at all.
If you don't want to enjoy it, he'll pull people from alleyways, gutters, highways and byways. When you realize that you deemed yourself unworthy, it'll be those people whom you mocked, despised and disdained who are now welcomed, while you have excluded yourself.

Paradise or misery?
It's entirely your choice.

 

[cvanwey]

Well..... how detailed do you want me to get?
One description Jesus gave was an outer darkness where there will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth.
Another was a place where the worm that eats dead flesh never dies, and the fire that burns is never put out.
Yet another description is a place where the smoke of their torment rises day and night forever.
A place which is exactly the same, forever, without any changes.
Is that what you want?
To experience the very worst of your nightmares, without end, or reprieve?
To experience mockings, taunting laughter, to live with the constant reminders that you could have told God yes, but instead said no, and you long for the opportunity to once again choose?
For this to take place.... not for seconds, or even moments, but for days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millennia, centuries of millennia, millennia of millennia, millions, and billions, and trillions or endless eons, without end. And when you've been there for 20 trillion eons..... you'll realize that you'll be there for another 20 trillion, and that will be mere picoseconds compared to eternity.

Jesus died so you'd not have to suffer that ignominy.

He died so your sin debt may be wiped clean, and you could live in a paradise with you in mind, so that when you've been there for hundreds of quintillions of millennia, it's only the beginning of a paradise, where you can learn, grown, laugh, enjoy friendships that will never end, and live in a civilization where peace, and righteousness reigns?

Your choice.....
Paradise or misery?

Let's just assume or conclude that this particular God does indeed exist. Let's also assume what you have just stated, is indeed true. What form of 'love' does this demonstrate?

God has the ability to create any scenario He so chooses. God's form of 'love' is to perpetually reward, with complete bliss, the ones He so chooses. And for the ones He does not, He sends them to a place of eternal torture and torment.

God could also choose to allow for the unchosen to simply no longer exist, reside in a place of rehabilitation, or other.

How is God's offer really any different than that of a mafia boss?

 

[ISteveB]

Let's just assume or conclude that this particular God does indeed exist. Let's also assume what you have just stated, is indeed true. What form of 'love' does this demonstrate?

God has the ability to create any scenario He so chooses. God's form of 'love' is to perpetually reward, with complete bliss, the ones He so chooses. And for the ones He does not, He sends them to a place of eternal torture and torment.

God could also choose to allow for the unchosen to simply no longer exist, reside in a place of rehabilitation, or other.

How is God's offer really any different than that of a mafia boss?

What does what demonstrate the love of God?
The blue-colored items, or my statement to which you've responded?

 

[cvanwey]

What does what demonstrate the love of God?
The blue-colored items, or my statement to which you've responded?

Assuming your asserted God exists...

God has the ability to create any scenario He so chooses. God's form of 'love' is to perpetually reward, with complete bliss, the ones He so chooses. And for the ones He does not, He sends them to a place of eternal torture and torment.

God could also choose to allow for the unchosen to simply no longer exist, reside in a place of rehabilitation, or other.

How is God's offer really any different than that of a mafia boss?

 

[Yttrium]

So..... I have to wonder.....

Why would you believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 140 years, when God clearly stated that he will give you what you need to know him?

After all this discussion, something about this has been bothering me.

I wouldn't pay much attention to Huxley. I really don't know much of anything about Huxley, and what's bothering me is that you're assuming that he's some kind of religious figure among agnostics. One tends to be agnostic and then finds out about Huxley later, not the other way around.

In my case, I've had a skeptical mind my whole life. My only firm belief is that I exist. I can't say that it's unlikely that God can be known, so I'm certainly not paying attention to Huxley. And I can't say that it's likely that God can be known. All I can really say is that I don't know whether God exists or not.

On the other hand, you may be referring only to "hard" agnostics. That is, those people who believe that one can't know that God exists. In that case, Huxley might have more influence, I dunno. But I've only encountered one such agnostic before. They seem to be really rare, so I would think that focusing on hard agnostics would be kind of pointless. Seriously, I've run into more flat Earthers and geocentrists than hard agnostics...

 

[FireDragon76]

Many Christians are disappointed in their efforts to experience some confirmation from God or Jesus that Christianity is true, and that is why they lose faith.

Christians claim that those who leave did not try hard enough or sincerely enough, but the evidence suggests that only a few get the confirmation they seek.

My objection is quite different.

God is simply too small and human to be something I invest in, at least as how most Christians seem to understand the concept.

 

[ISteveB]

My objection is quite different.

God is simply too small and human to be something I invest in, at least as how most Christians seem to understand the concept.

Ok.
Please explain what you mean by too small, and human.

 

[ISteveB]

After all this discussion, something about this has been bothering me.

Ok.
I have lots of things that bother me, so I take the time to work through them, so they're no longer as overwhelming a problem as they once were.

I wouldn't pay much attention to Huxley. I really don't know much of anything about Huxley, and what's bothering me is that you're assuming that he's some kind of religious figure among agnostics. One tends to be agnostic and then finds out about Huxley later, not the other way around.

I'm older, and have been hearing about him for a long, long time. I too never heard much about him when I was younger, so when I heard about him, I found myself caught off guard by the "force of energy" people were putting into him--- as though he was a religious figure among agnostics and atheists.
I don't really put any thought into people like him because he's dead, and gone now.
But it's become clear to me through those years-- and I'm talking decades now--- that they do take him seriously, and base their beliefs about the knowability of God on him.

In my case, I've had a skeptical mind my whole life. My only firm belief is that I exist. I can't say that it's unlikely that God can be known, so I'm certainly not paying attention to Huxley. And I can't say that it's likely that God can be known. All I can really say is that I don't know whether God exists or not.

In all honesty, I think that trust is a human operation, and that skepticism is the result of being repeatedly disappointed on really primal human levels. Relationships, and basic ideas being the foremost.
So, I get skepticism.
I think that the more trusting we were as children, the more skeptical we become as adults, because of how often our trust was burned. At least that's been my experience.

Which is all the more why I'm talking about the knowability of God.
This isn't something that I'm gullible, or naive about. I left the church I grew up in when I was 11-12 because my trust had been burned, and I saw no validity to it in my primary relationships with my family. And as we're always saying--- if it's not real at home, it isn't real outside.

On the other hand, you may be referring only to "hard" agnostics. That is, those people who believe that one can't know that God exists. In that case, Huxley might have more influence, I dunno. But I've only encountered one such agnostic before. They seem to be really rare, so I would think that focusing on hard agnostics would be kind of pointless. Seriously, I've run into more flat Earthers and geocentrists than hard agnostics...

Ok.
I've met a fair number of "flat-earthers" and "geo-centrists" too, but I've met more agnostics than them.

And as both a Jesus follower, who's been reading the bible for 43+ years, as well as an academically trained physicist, I don't think the earth is flat at all, and find amusing those arguments used by atheists/agnostics who claim that the bible says it is.
Apparently they've never studied spherical trigonometry.

Because as ironic as it is--- there actually are right angles in spherical triangles, and they add up to more than 180°, which to the uninitiated is blasphemy.

Eg., there are 8 octants on a spheroidal device. 4 in the northern hemisphere, and 4 in the southern hemisphere.
Each octant is a 270° triangle.
There are three 90° corners in the triangle of an octant.
So, in fact, the earth actually does have 4 corners, and it is in fact a spheroid.
And from space, it actually does look like a circle. Just like the moon looks like a circle. The sun looks like a circle.

Or, is it that all the other objects in space are spheroids, but this one planet is the sole flat one, and it just has the appearance of a plate?

I heard a joke last week that I think still needs an answer.

If the earth really is flat, with all the social distancing taking place, have people been pushed off the edge of the earth?

So.... for the claims that the bible is false because it talks about the four corners of the earth, and it's a circle...... someone has a perception problem. A LOT of someones have serious perception problems.

 

[ISteveB]

Assuming your asserted God exists...

He says he does.
He's inviting you to come find out, and learn for yourself.

God has the ability to create any scenario He so chooses. God's form of 'love' is to perpetually reward, with complete bliss, the ones He so chooses. And for the ones He does not, He sends them to a place of eternal torture and torment.

Ironically, he's set in place the "scenarios" he has.
He's inviting the entire human race to come follow Jesus, and receive eternal life.
Those who refuse eternal life--- they're choosing to go to a place not designed with them in mind at all...... and explicitly against his explicitly stated desires for them.

So.... I'm curious.... do you have children yet? Or are you still young enough to recall your own childhood?
I recall my childhood, and teen years quite well....
I thoroughly sucked at following my parent's instructions. I was so bad at it that I almost got myself killed at 18. Thankfully, I've had the past 42 years to recover from that, but the concept of disobedience is still really clearly, and indelibly etched into my awareness. And on my skin, where the surgeon cut open my throat to remove a bullet from my neck. A scar which reminds me every single time I look in a mirror, or someone asks me what the scar on my neck is about.

God could also choose to allow for the unchosen to simply no longer exist, reside in a place of rehabilitation, or other.

That would indeed be easy for the people who are cowardly, and don't want to take responsibility for their lives. It does not however exclude them from that responsibility.

and sadly..... it is written in Revelation 21:8 that cowardly, and unbelieving people will end up in the lake of fire.

How is God's offer really any different than that of a mafia boss?

Well, he's different in a lot of ways, but for starters--- you're still alive, and God has known your whereabouts since before you were born.
So, the question becomes--- do you take the time to learn for yourself, or do you continue to give excuses for why you shouldn't have to, and end up there by your own choosing?

 

[Par5]

He says he does.
He's inviting you to come find out, and learn for yourself.

Ironically, he's set in place the "scenarios" he has.
He's inviting the entire human race to come follow Jesus, and receive eternal life.
Those who refuse eternal life--- they're choosing to go to a place not designed with them in mind at all...... and explicitly against his explicitly stated desires for them.

So.... I'm curious.... do you have children yet? Or are you still young enough to recall your own childhood?
I recall my childhood, and teen years quite well....
I thoroughly sucked at following my parent's instructions. I was so bad at it that I almost got myself killed at 18. Thankfully, I've had the past 42 years to recover from that, but the concept of disobedience is still really clearly, and indelibly etched into my awareness. And on my skin, where the surgeon cut open my throat to remove a bullet from my neck. A scar which reminds me every single time I look in a mirror, or someone asks me what the scar on my neck is about.


That would indeed be easy for the people who are cowardly, and don't want to take responsibility for their lives. It does not however exclude them from that responsibility.

and sadly..... it is written in Revelation 21:8 that cowardly, and unbelieving people will end up in the lake of fire.




Well, he's different in a lot of ways, but for starters--- you're still alive, and God has known your whereabouts since before you were born.
So, the question becomes--- do you take the time to learn for yourself, or do you continue to give excuses for why you shouldn't have to, and end up there by your own choosing?

"and sadly..... it is written in Revelation 21:8 that cowardly, and unbelieving people will end up in the lake of fire."
And just what proof do you have for such a thing?
It says so in the bible doesn't count!

 

[cvanwey]

So.... I'm curious.... do you have children yet?

Yes

That would indeed be easy for the people who are cowardly, and don't want to take responsibility for their lives. It does not however exclude them from that responsibility.

and sadly..... it is written in Revelation 21:8 that cowardly, and unbelieving people will end up in the lake of fire.

Remember, you cannot control what you believe. Belief is not a choice. God sends millions to burn, whom genuinely do not believe He exists?

Well, he's different in a lot of ways, but for starters--- you're still alive, and God has known your whereabouts since before you were born.

Okay, so far you have described Santa Claus, whom also presents a false dichotomy.

1) Do what I say, or...
2) I will place you in a place of burning forever.

So, the question becomes--- do you take the time to learn for yourself, or do you continue to give excuses for why you shouldn't have to, and end up there by your own choosing?

I searched for His mere existence for decades. I do not think He exists. If He should happen to exist, He is apparently going to sent me to a place of burning forever. This is actually 'worse' than a mafia boss, because I know mafia bosses exists. And if a mafia boss were to present such a false dilemma to me, (follow me or burn), at least I know I have an actual A) or B) choice/option.

On the contrary, all you have to offer here, is the Words from the Bible. Which, thus far, have not met their burden of proof to be real. --- It looks, so far, to be an empty threat.

 

[ISteveB]

"and sadly..... it is written in Revelation 21:8 that cowardly, and unbelieving people will end up in the lake of fire."
And just what proof do you have for such a thing?
It says so in the bible doesn't count!

43 years, 4 months of experience.