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For Skeptics Only: Would you ever accept the burden of proof for atheism?

Do atheists ever shoulder the burden of proof for atheism?


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    6

Paulomycin

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RE: Scholarship.

Gary Habermas has compiled a list of scholars so that he has very accurate statistics. His list contains scholars who have written papers in English, French and German from 1975 to the present day. It is currently over 500 pages long and contains over 1400 texts on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus contained within over 100 subtopics. Due to the large amount of recent studies coming out, Gary Habermas has not published his list yet. He wants to be as complete as possible, so he has only released a summary of the statistics in an article.

Gary Habermas' list is not limited to only Christian scholars. He says;

“ I have a large number of people from the atheist, the agnostics [and] the highly skeptical communities. The communities who would basically say anything from 'You can't say [that] Jesus was raised from the dead' all the way over to 'He was not and could not be raised from the dead'. ”

Gary Habermas defines a scholar as someone who has a terminal degree, who has published peer reviewed work and preferably has a university post or teaches on the subject. He does make occasional exceptions if the scholar "proves" himself. For example, Richard Carrier or Robert Price, both atheists, were included in the list before they had PhDs because of their large amount of knowledge on the subject and publications. Gary Habermas says;

In other words, I'm not trying to block anyone out because they are 'too radical'."
 
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Paulomycin

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So you are again saying that if the resurrection is true then the bible is inerrant. And so everything that Jesus is reported to have said we must accept as verbatum.

That's your proof that 'Jesus said X'? A simple yeah or nay here will suffice.

Yes. Stop ignoring how I got there. Context and process are everything here.
 
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Bradskii

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Continued. . .

Proper historiography of the resurrection of Christ is critical in forming a valid hypothesis. The chief (if not the only) historical data that can be utilized from exegesis according to the minimal facts method are those that pass two critical tests:

  1. The multiple attestation or multiple evidences criteria. Each historical fact or data must be multiply attested to by normal means, such as authenticity for example, preferably from more than one angle.
  2. Consensus of scholarship criteria. The majority of critical biblical and specifically New Testament scholars (Atheist, Agnostic, Christian and Jew) concede the probability of the particular historical saying or event being considered.[7]
Through exegesis and two tests historical facts are determined surrounding the resurrection of Christ. Dr. Gary Habermas has concluded that six core historical facts emerge after applying this rigorous academic methodology.

  1. Jesus died by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.
  2. Jesus' tomb was empty.
  3. Jesus' disciples believed what they saw was the risen Jesus.
  4. The skeptic and persecutor of Christians, Paul, was converted to Christianity.
  5. The skeptic James was converted to Christianity.
  6. Early Christian belief and proclamation of the resurrection of Christ showing its centrality to Christianity.[8]
Fact (2) regarding the empty tomb, is accepted by approximately 75% of scholars. The minimal facts satisfy the multiple attestation criteria fully, and the consensus criteria ranges from 75% to as high as 95% agreement. The list may also be presented in a different form, that is usually;

  1. Jesus died by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.
  2. Jesus' disciples believed what they saw was the risen Jesus.
  3. The skeptic and persecutor of Christians, Paul, was converted to Christianity.
In either presentation of the minimal facts they are considered historical bedrock which a strong resurrection hypothesis can be built upon. During this conclusive process the hypothesis articulated (what can be called historiography) must comply with the elements of a historical method of investigating past events better and fuller than other competing hypotheses.

I'm sure you have better things to do, Paul. That was a waste of your time. But not mine. I didn't read it. I have already said that for the purposes of discussing this specific matter I will accept the resurrection.

Now, if you could yeah or nay the question in my previous post?
 
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Paulomycin

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I'm sure you have better things to do, Paul. That was a waste of your time. But not mine. I didn't read it. I have already said that for the purposes of discussing this specific matter I will accept the resurrection.

Now, if you could yeah or nay the question in my previous post?

I already answered. Wouldn't want you to "overlook" it.

Yes. Stop ignoring how I got there. Context and process are everything here.

^ There it is.
 
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Paulomycin

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I'm sure you have better things to do, Paul. That was a waste of your time. But not mine. I didn't read it.

Of course you didn't read it, which proved my point all along. You're here to push your agenda of forced incredulity. You're not open-minded at all.
 
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Bradskii

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Yes. Stop ignoring how I got there. Context and process are everything here.

Nah. The conclusion is the thing. It's not possible to discuss how one weights biblical evidence as tonit's veracity f you state right from the outset that everything in scripture is to be taken literally. So consider this statement of yours:

"If it cannot be justified by evidence or reason, then I can't honestly believe anything."

We can now change that to:

"If it cannot be justified by evidence or reason or unless it appears in scripture, then I can't honestly believe anything."

How can one reasonably discuss anything after a statement like that?
 
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Bradskii

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Of course you didn't read it, which proved my point all along. You're here to push your agenda of forced incredulity. You're not open-minded at all.

I actually accepted the proposal that the resurrection happened. There was no need to provide any evidence. I was agreeing with you.
 
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Paulomycin

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Nah. The conclusion is the thing.

Oh, so since it's the conclusion you're previously biased against, then you chuck it out regardless of the evidence. I see how you are.

"If it cannot be justified by evidence or reason or unless it appears in scripture, then I can't honestly believe anything."

^ Again with the twisting. That's not my basis at all. Also, you're ignoring my clearly stated criteria. Historical scholars do not work from any assumption of scriptural inerrancy.
 
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Bradskii

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Again with the twisting. That's not my basis at all.

You've just spent quite a few posts explaining that the bible is inerrent and why it is so. Do we have to be this precise?

Do you believe the bible to be innerant?

If yes, the statement above is exactly correct.
If not then we can't use it to claim that everything that Jesus was reported to have said is verbatum.

It's up to you.
 
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Paulomycin

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You've just spent quite a few posts explaining that the bible is inerrent and why it is so. Do we have to be this precise?

I precisely did not start with inerrancy. You're complaining about the conclusion, remember? You said, "If the evidence you put forward is objectively correct or incorrect then it will be accepted or rejected accordingly." What-a-crock!
 
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Bradskii

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I precisely did not start with inerrancy. You're complaining about the conclusion, remember? You said, "If the evidence you put forward is objectively correct or incorrect then it will be accepted or rejected accordingly." What-a-crock!

Strike 2. I don't waste my time repeating questions and not getting straight answers I'll only ask it once more.

Do you believe the bible to be innerant?

If yes, the statement above is exactly correct.
If not then we can't use it to claim that everything that Jesus was reported to have said is verbatum.
 
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Paulomycin

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Strike 2. I don't waste my time repeating questions and not getting straight answers I'll only ask it once more.

"If the evidence you put forward is objectively correct or incorrect then it will be accepted or rejected accordingly."

Do you believe the bible to be innerant?

You don't even care about the evidence that got me there. You just want any excuse to bail out.
 
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Bradskii

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"If the evidence you put forward is objectively correct or incorrect then it will be accepted or rejected accordingly."



You don't even care about the evidence that got me there. You just want any excuse to bail out.

Strike 3.
 
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Paulomycin

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Strike 3.

Well then, I can only conclude you didn't really mean what you said, "If the evidence you put forward is objectively correct or incorrect then it will be accepted or rejected accordingly."

I'm guessing you were overconfident when you stated it.

Bye. Don't let the door hit you, etc. etc.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So I answered all claims are equal. If I claim God either exists or does not exist then I have a burden of proof. But, I claim neither. I do not have good evidence that either of those claims are true. So I remain in the I don't know camp. Which also fits the definition of an atheist.
 
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DamianWarS

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Not all theists are fideists.
Perhaps, but in a science vacuum you have to be. What certainly doesn't remain is proof on either side. If we can only define "proof" through scientific means then there will never be proof.
 
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durangodawood

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You're not trying to be awkward at all, you are awkwardly trying to entrap me. Now then, please post the available options of "meaning" that I have to choose from. I'm sensing a "gotcha" with a lecture attached. So I'm invoking my rights. I don't know what you believe and it's not even my job to define atheism for you. What's worse is that even if I tried, I'd get a dozen follow-up objections from atheists to make the term even more ambiguous than it actually is.

So give me the list of available meanings and we can move on from there. Otherwise, I can only conclude you don't even know what atheism means. You are in no way obligated to answer further, or even participate.
Ah I see you edited out your phrase I was asking about. You should have just told me and saved all the drama. Entrap you? So dire!

Ok, so my atheist claim goes like this: I dont find sufficient evidence in the world to convince me of the being known as God. Thats a weak claim as they go, and of course is not provable to others.

I do think we should expect some good evidence or reasoning for the so called "strong atheist" claim that goes like: "there are no gods or God". Absent evidence or reasoning I'll just treat it as a statement of personal faith.

Proof tho is completely implausible, imo, when considering either atheist or theist claims. The object of these claims is too far removed from objective experience for us to expect useful proofs either positive or negative. I would consider a proposed proof out of curiosity. But expectations are rock bottom low.
 
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Gene2memE

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Taking a position 'I don't believe there is a God or gods' is very different to taking the position 'I believe there is no God or gods'.

I hold the former position. My younger brother holds the latter.

We're both happy to be described as atheists.

One of the favourite ways I heard the first position described is: 'I'm not buying what your selling, but I'm not trying to sell you anything in return'
 
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Paulomycin

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Perhaps, but in a science vacuum you have to be.

^ Sorry. What did you mean by "science vacuum?"

If we can only define "proof" through scientific means then there will never be proof.

My professor told us that "proof" was limited to math & booze, respectively. In science, there is no such thing as proof; only inductively falsifiable approximations.
 
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