The only way to know God exists is by him proving it to you

[cloudyday2]

That sounds like Epicurus. Hmm...it IS Epicurus!

Quote
Here we see one of Epicurus’ techniques for obtaining happiness even in the most miserable situation: instead of dwelling on the pain, recollect one of those moments in the past when you were most happy. Through enough training of the mind, you will be able to achieve such vividness of imagination that you can relive these experiences and that happiness. This idea is well illustrated by Victor Frankl, the Viennese psychiatrist who suffered four years in various concentration camps, including Auschwitz. Frankl writes that one of the few things that was able to give him a feeling of happiness was conjuring up an image of his beloved wife, and engaging in imaginary conversation with her. As he writes: "My mind clung to my wife's image, imagining it with an uncanny acuteness. I heard her answering me, saw her smile, her frank and encouraging look. Real or not, her look was then more luminous than the sun which was beginning to rise." (Frankl 1984, p. 57).

Epicurus

That is interesting, but I don't think it is accurate to equate Epicureanism with logotherapy even though the article uses Frankl's experience as an example. Of course, I'm sure there is a lot of borrowing and overlapping. Also, I don't know much about either philosophy/psychological theory. I read Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning", but I didn't see a way to utilize it for myself. Here is a quote from wikipedia again:

Logotherapy is based on an existential analysis[3] focusing on Kierkegaard's will to meaning as opposed to Adler's Nietzschean doctrine of will to power or Freud's will to pleasure. Rather than power or pleasure, logotherapy is founded upon the belief that it is the striving to find a meaning in one's life that is the primary, most powerful motivating and driving force in humans

Logotherapy - Wikipedia

 

[Wordkeeper]

That is interesting, but I don't think it is accurate to equate Epicureanism with logotherapy even though the article uses Frankl's experience as an example. Of course, I'm sure there is a lot of borrowing and overlapping. Also, I don't know much about either philosophy/psychological theory. I read Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning", but I didn't see a way to utilize it for myself. Here is a quote from wikipedia again:

Logotherapy - Wikipedia

Reality depresses. Logotherapy replaces it with a positive thought.

It's escapism, although not as destructive as alcohol or drugs. When reality resurfaces, as it definitely will, it'll probably hit even harder, requiring another trip to the therapist.

 

[Robban]

That is interesting, but I don't think it is accurate to equate Epicureanism with logotherapy even though the article uses Frankl's experience as an example. Of course, I'm sure there is a lot of borrowing and overlapping. Also, I don't know much about either philosophy/psychological theory. I read Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning", but I didn't see a way to utilize it for myself. Here is a quote from wikipedia again:

Logotherapy - Wikipedia

A lot of people spend a lot of time
seeking the meaning with life,

Will there be any life left to live?

 

[awitch]

Bottomline, you are just leading an inconsequential life:

This is really what your religion teaches you? And you go along with it voluntarily? Wow, even without hell, it sounds miserable.

I'd ask why not just end your life early, but I believe God will revoke your invitation to heaven if you do. But that would make him malevolent, wouldn't it? Why should people even have children at all then?

I think I'm going to stick my religion that celebrates life and teaches us to appreciate the time we have.

 

[Wordkeeper]

This is really what your religion teaches you? And you go along with it voluntarily? Wow, even without hell, it sounds miserable.

I'd ask why not just end your life early, but I believe God will revoke your invitation to heaven if you do. But that would make him malevolent, wouldn't it? Why should people even have children at all then?

I think I'm going to stick my religion that celebrates life and teaches us to appreciate the time we have.

Never said it applies to Christians. We have a purpose. The teaching is compelling, because like string theory, it provides coherent and comprehensive answers.

 

[awitch]

Never said it applies to Christians. We have a purpose. The teaching is compelling, because like string theory, it provides coherent and comprehensive answers.

Well, I hope you're not disappointed to learn that non-Christians have just as much purpose, even if its different.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Well, I hope you're not disappointed to learn that non-Christians have just as much purpose, even if its different.

State your purpose.

 

[awitch]

State your purpose.

I already did.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I already did.

And was shown that they were meaningless. Why persist?

 

[awitch]

And was shown that they were meaningless. Why persist?

You have shown no such thing and the purpose of my life does not require your blessing.

Is it really that upsetting to acknowledge that people who don't believe the same unfounded things as you can't live happy and fulfilling lives?

Even if you were right, I'd take a limited existence of futility over an eternity of futility.

You may want to reconsider your proselytizing tactics before you alienate any more people.

 

[cloudyday2]

Reality depresses. Logotherapy replaces it with a positive thought.

It's escapism, although not as destructive as alcohol or drugs. When reality resurfaces, as it definitely will, it'll probably hit even harder, requiring another trip to the therapist.

You should read the logotherapy link again, because you have misunderstood. I don't fully understand or agree with logotherapy, but your characterization is not accurate. Maybe logotherapy doesn't interest you, and that is fine too. I just thought it might be applicable.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You have shown no such thing and the purpose of my life does not require your blessing.

Is it really that upsetting to acknowledge that people who don't believe the same unfounded things as you can't live happy and fulfilling lives?

Even if you were right, I'd take a limited existence of futility over an eternity of futility.

You may want to reconsider your proselytizing tactics before you alienate any more people.

Unfounded? On what basis?

 

[Wordkeeper]

You should read the logotherapy link again, because you have misunderstood. I don't fully understand or agree with logotherapy, but your characterization is not accurate. Maybe logotherapy doesn't interest you, and that is fine too. I just thought it might be applicable.

Frankl claims people get depressed because they face hard tasks every day. He proposes they set themselves up some easy and enjoyable task so that they have a sense of achievement.

Also, he teaches them to look at positive aspects of situations, as in the anecdote of the grieving husband.

Some criticise his methods as authoritarian. The therapist takes control of the patient's life, deciding on what he should focus on and how he should view it.

This doesn't solve the ultimate problem. Ultimate meaninglessness.

The topic has been dealt with by Aristotle, Plato and Socrates . Epicurean ism and Stoicism were two ways of handling it.

I remember I came to the same conclusion at the age of 14. The rat race pushed away the conclusions and I came back to it only in my retirement.

 

[awitch]

Unfounded? On what basis?

That the concepts of an afterlife are less than anecdotal at best.

 

[cloudyday2]

Frankl claims people get depressed because they face hard tasks every day. He proposes they set themselves up some easy and enjoyable task so that they have a sense of achievement.

Also, he teaches them to look at positive aspects of situations, as in the anecdote of the grieving husband.

No, that's not accurate, but let's just drop it. If you don't think logotherapy is relevant, then that is fine.

 

[Wordkeeper]

That the concepts of an afterlife are less than anecdotal at best.

If there is no afterlife then futility is confirmed. You NEED a concept of afterlife. Most are not compelling or comprehensive. Not so the Christian teaching.

Anecdotal would suggest subjective experience. I don't recall anybody coming back from the afterlife with any anecdotal account.

Christian teachings are based on repetitive motifs, themes. The afterlife is based on the analogy of the seed. Unless it is buried it cannot reach fulfilment.

Even businesses operate on the same principle. Unless you invest, you can't reap a harvest.

 

[awitch]

If there is no afterlife then futility is confirmed. You NEED a concept of afterlife. Most are not compelling or comprehensive. Not so the Christian teaching.

I think we're just going to have to disagree.

Anecdotal would suggest subjective experience. I don't recall anybody coming back from the afterlife with any anecdotal account.

Exactly. Which is why all descriptions of an afterlife are wishful thinking. There is no compelling reason to accept the Christian concept of an afterlife (and even Christians can't agree on it), over the Hindu, Muslim, or Pagan concepts other than which one sounds more appealing.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Exactly. Which is why all descriptions of an afterlife are wishful thinking. There is no compelling reason to accept the Christian concept of an afterlife (and even Christians can't agree on it), over the Hindu, Muslim, or Pagan concepts other than which one sounds more appealing.

Well the idea of the afterlife as a motif is illustrated in the teaching that in order to be agreeing with Christ's teaching, one must pick up one's cross daily.

How does it play out? Should a follower of Christ offer himself for execution every day? The teaching is an analogy.

The cross is risk to life. The challenge is to die and be revived. To prove that letting go is the only way towards getting results.

Christ did it in two ways. He would offer to do a miracle and then actually do it. That's going out on a limb, risking at least disgrace, and he would always emerge unscathed.

Alternatively, he would interpret scripture. The Pharisees would try to trap him into a blasphemous statement. Again he would come up with an amazing answer and be proved innocent. Not that innocence would save, because the mob tried to kill him anyway, but it would have been murder not an execution.

The point is that the exercise is multi functional. It teaches resurrection as well as actually demonstrating it.

Then Christ caps it off by literally laying down his life and reviving himself.

Many Christians have experienced this resurrection, being raised up after laying down their life. It is taught, had been proved true and is an indicator of the result of finally laying down of life whilst witnessing.