For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

bbbbbbb · Mar 15, 2009

Showing veneration to Mary and bowing to a statue representing Mary are two different things. In Hinduism bowing to a statue representing a god is worship and there is no reason for a Hindu not to believe that people who bow to a statue of a woman called Mary are not worshipping her.

That said, the discussion has now taken an interesting turn. In terms of the Catholic Church's theology as to who is saved, there is latitude that Hindus can be saved. In fact, anybody can be saved, according to Catholic theology. On the other hand, nobody is saved because Catholic theology denies any assurance of salvation to anyone, even the most pious Catholics.

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 15, 2009

I think you are misunderstanding Catholic teaching.

the Church teaches that if a person never heard of Christ, they will be judged based on what they did with what they DID know. God reveals Himself through nature, as the BIble says.

If they heard of Him but rejected Him, they won't be saved.

However, the Church doesn't say for sure who will be saved and who will be damned, because this judgement is left to God.

We have the hope of salvation, not the assurance, because a person can always fall away - this is warned about in the Bible and by Christ many times. St Paul even says, in one of his letters, that he has not yet "achieved it" meaning - salvation... he was still running the race. the Catholic position is much more Biblical than OSAS, which ignores certain passages.

about veneration, again, it's all about the intent.

Rhamiel · Mar 15, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
Showing veneration to Mary and bowing to a statue representing Mary are two different things. In Hinduism bowing to a statue representing a god is worship and there is no reason for a Hindu not to believe that people who bow to a statue of a woman called Mary are not worshipping her.

That said, the discussion has now taken an interesting turn. In terms of the Catholic Church's theology as to who is saved, there is latitude that Hindus can be saved. In fact, anybody can be saved, according to Catholic theology. On the other hand, nobody is saved because Catholic theology denies any assurance of salvation to anyone, even the most pious Catholics.

if someone never heard the Gospel (or heard a horrible warped version of the Gospel, something we could not even call the Gospel) then God will judge them on what they do know.
and as to the most pious of Catholics, can we veiw there hearts? no God made there heart and He alone knows how it works, so we leave the Judgment to Him

bbbbbbb · Mar 16, 2009

On one hand we have the Catholic church saying who cannot be saved but on the other we have it holding out the promise of salvation to many of these same individuals, giving them great latitude, not know their hearts. On one hand we have the Catholic church withholding any assurance of salvation to its members but on the other hand it speaks very forthrightly on the complete assurance of the salvation of its saints, some of whom have no historical record of having lived.

As for bowing before statues, Jesus himself said that it would be better for a person of have a millstone hung around his neck and to be cast into the sea rather than put a stumbling block in front of one of these little ones (in faith). Also, Paul, in I Corinthians 8:13, said "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble." in regard to eating meat that had been offered to idols in a temple. The Catholic Church is creating a significant stumbling block for Christians, not only in India, but also in many other areas of the world.

MamaZ · Mar 16, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
On one hand we have the Catholic church saying who cannot be saved but on the other we have it holding out the promise of salvation to many of these same individuals, giving them great latitude, not know their hearts. On one hand we have the Catholic church withholding any assurance of salvation to its members but on the other hand it speaks very forthrightly on the complete assurance of the salvation of its saints, some of whom have no historical record of having lived.

As for bowing before statues, Jesus himself said that it would be better for a person of have a millstone hung around his neck and to be cast into the sea rather than put a stumbling block in front of one of these little ones (in faith). Also, Paul, in I Corinthians 8:13, said "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble." in regard to eating meat that had been offered to idols in a temple. The Catholic Church is creating a significant stumbling block for Christians, not only in India, but also in many other areas of the world.

Good post

Sierra162 · Mar 16, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
it doesn't mean we worship her though.. it just means they misunderstood what it means when we bow to her (it means showing respect, veneration). worship is in the intention.

When one bows, protates themselves, or kneels that means they are worshipping. Whether you want to call it that or not doesn't change the fact that it is worship.

Worship
G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
Thayer Definition:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
3a1) to the Jewish high priests
3a2) to God
3a3) to Christ
3a4) to heavenly beings
3a5) to demons
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from G4314 and a probable derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand)
Citing in TDNT: 6:758, 948

Strong definition
G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

Sierra162 · Mar 16, 2009

I would also like to add, the definition of the terms worship, adore, venerate mean different things to different people in different centuries.

Sierra162 · Mar 16, 2009

Monica4316 don't be afraid of the word worship.
I was thinking about your post and wanted to say...
For many centuries people have used that word to mean great love and adoration.
For God first and foremost, but also for people, and for saints/Mary and so on.
Some older Catholic writings have the word worship associated with Mary.
It is true. But that is what the word worship means. A great love.
Especially when expressed by bowing or prostrating oneself before another.
People do that all the time even today. Asking in marriage on bended knee, bowing before royality, bending over to kiss someone's hand. The word worship would apply to all of those things to.

Why does that word bother you?
I once told my husband I worship the ground you walk on.

We all know that when we worship God it is on a totally different level and with a totally different meaning!

But the word worship has many meaning like I said in my first post, usually with bowing as a act of worship.
Doesn't make it a bad thing, it is just a word.
Or am I missing something?

alphonsus12 · Mar 17, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
1.)On one hand we have the Catholic church saying who cannot be saved but on the other we have it holding out the promise of salvation to many of these same individuals, giving them great latitude, not know their hearts. On one hand we have the Catholic church withholding any assurance of salvation to its members but on the other hand it speaks very forthrightly on the complete assurance of the salvation of its saints, some of whom have no historical record of having lived.

2.)As for bowing before statues, Jesus himself said that it would be better for a person of have a millstone hung around his neck and to be cast into the sea rather than put a stumbling block in front of one of these little ones (in faith). Also, Paul, in I Corinthians 8:13, said "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble." in regard to eating meat that had been offered to idols in a temple. The Catholic Church is creating a significant stumbling block for Christians, not only in India, but also in many other areas of the world.

1.) You are not talking about the Catholic Church, you are talking about a strawman that you have set up in your own mind that can easily be argued down, and you refuse to let go of this strawman opinion in spite of 15 pages of debate on the subject, in which we have shown time and again the true teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I am done arguing this point with you.
2.) What you see as a stumbling block I see as merely another stair to help us in our journey of faith.

bbbbbbb · Mar 17, 2009

alphonsus12 said:
1.) You are not talking about the Catholic Church, you are talking about a strawman that you have set up in your own mind that can easily be argued down, and you refuse to let go of this strawman opinion in spite of 15 pages of debate on the subject, in which we have shown time and again the true teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I am done arguing this point with you.

After fifteen pages of discussion, all of which has been really surprisingly civil, for which I am quite grateful, I have received the following statements which I ask anyone to please correct if they are erroneous:

1. The Catholic Church has never stated that anyone has been condemned to an eternity in hell, much less naming any individuals.

2. The Catholic Church believes that there will be people who are not saved (i.e. do not go to heaven, but are eternally damned by God).

3. The Pope (both Pope Benedict and some of his predecessors) have clearly stated that the fullness of salvation lies in the Catholic Church (whatever that may mean).

4. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that anyone who knowingly (again, this is open to interpretation) rejects the Catholic Church and joins another church will be lost unless they repent and return to the Catholic Church.

5. The Pope has stated that Protestants are partakers of salvation.

6, The Catholic Church is clear that nobody can have assurance of salvation.

7. The possibility of salvation is extended not only to non-Catholics such as Protestants, but also to the Orthodox, to Jews, to Muslims, and to other non-Christians.

Which of these seven statements is incorrect in whole or in part?

2.) What you see as a stumbling block I see as merely another stair to help us in our journey of faith.

You might, but it is obvious in the earlier posts by the new Indian Christian, that this is a serious stumbling block both to him as a Christian and to Hindus.

Aibrean · Mar 17, 2009

I am a catholic in the purest sense of the word (Greek - katholikos, meaning "universal").

bbbbbbb · Mar 17, 2009

Aibrean said:
I am a catholic in the purest sense of the word (Greek - katholikos, meaning "universal").

Thank you for your excellent post. I am one, as well, and am saddened when any denomination arrogates to itself a word that ought to apply to all of God's people.

I once attended a church that decided to change its name (Bible Chapel) because certain individuals found offense in it. I suggested Christian Assembly as a possibility, but that idea was rejected because the public might think we were Christians (the denomination) which had a church over a mile away. It was finally decided to rename the church as Bible Assembly. I pointed out that you can have an assembly of Christians, but an assembly of Bibles is absurd. The name was used until the leaders discovered to their horror that people were confusing us with the Assembly of God.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 17, 2009

This is a question I would like Catholics to address for me. For centuries the Pope has adamantly insisted that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. In recent years there have been papal statements to the effect that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, particularly with those churches that employ a trinitarian formula for baptism. Yet, on the other hand, I hear from the same Popes that only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of salvation.

My question then, is how are non-Catholics saved? i.e. do they spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics? Are Catholics given front-row seats in heaven reserved only for those having the fullness of salvation? What are the differences, if any, between salvation and full salvation?

Thanks

.

Originally Posted by alphonsus12

1.) You are not talking about the Catholic Church, you are talking about a strawman that you have set up in your own mind that can easily be argued down, and you refuse to let go of this strawman opinion in spite of 15 pages of debate on the subject, in which we have shown time and again the true teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I am done arguing this point with you.

LLOJ subscribes!

papist1 · Jun 19, 2009

Jesus only instituted one church in scripture, and historical evidence proves that this church remained virtually One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic until the early 16th century. It seems that the burden of proof would be on you to prove that you church, which was instituted by a mere man long after the first century a.d. would have any authority whatsoever to even speak on these matters, let alone decide what is infallibly correct.

There is no salvation outside of Jesus christ, and His Body, the Church of which he only instituted one.

Therefore because you do not have the full means of sanctification in the sacraments, this would place you at a disadvantage because the fullness of truth is not available to you outside of the teachings of the church Christ instututed and speaks through.

peace, papist

bbbbbbb · Jun 19, 2009

papist1 said:
Jesus only instituted one church in scripture, and historical evidence proves that this church remained virtually One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic until the early 16th century. It seems that the burden of proof would be on you to prove that you church, which was instituted by a mere man long after the first century a.d. would have any authority whatsoever to even speak on these matters, let alone decide what is infallibly correct.

Much of your statement hinges upon the definition of "church." If you mean a organization such as a denomination, then your statement makes sense. If, however, the church is the mystical body of Christ composed of all believers in Him and excluding all who do not believe in Him, then there is a problem.

Also, what is this "church remained virtually One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic until the early 16th century.?" You seem to be sweeping the Great Schism under the carpet. IMO the EOC and the OOC have just as much reason to claim validity as "The Church" based upon the same historical rationale as you use.

papist1 said:
There is no salvation outside of Jesus christ, and His Body, the Church of which he only instituted one.

Thank you for stating this clearly for us. Now I do know that the Catholic Church has not changed one iota in its belief that it and it alone believes that it and it alone possesses salvation. Thus, my OP is addressed that no non-Catholic, including Protestants baptized with a trinitarian formula possess salvation in any sense of that word.

papist1 said:
Therefore because you do not have the full means of sanctification in the sacraments, this would place you at a disadvantage because the fullness of truth is not available to you outside of the teachings of the church Christ instututed and speaks through.

You are too kind. If what you have stated is true (no salvation outside of the Catholic Church) then I am not at a disadvantage. I am headed straight for the Lake of Fire for an eternity. That, I believe, is much more than a mere disadvantage.

peace, papist[/quote]

Thanks again for crisply and succinctly addressing my OP.

Aibrean · Jun 20, 2009

When Jesus tells us how to be saved, you notice he doesn't say ANYTHING other than belief in him? There aren't any strings attached, like what church you are a part of.

MamaZ · Jun 20, 2009

So then I take it if a Catholic does not go to church then they cannot be saved? What about all those out there that do not go to church but claim they are Catholic? Does this matter?

papist1 · Jun 20, 2009

Aibrean said:
When Jesus tells us how to be saved, you notice he doesn't say ANYTHING other than belief in him? There aren't any strings attached, like what church you are a part of.

UH, wow, how deep.

what Church gave us the canon of scripture?

The Catholic Church.

What Church placed the chapters and verses in that Bible?

The Catholic Church.

Jesus only started one Church, not one among many, and that church has been visible from day one, to this very day.

One, Holy Universal, Apostolic.

amen

papist1 · Jun 20, 2009

MamaZ said:
So then I take it if a Catholic does not go to church then they cannot be saved? What about all those out there that do not go to church but claim they are Catholic? Does this matter?

Sure they can be saved. That is what repentence and confession is for.

I find it interesting that as a protestant, i thought so much about myself and my salvation. It seems that Christ teaches us to focus on loving others and helping them, that they are to be Christ for us, to show them them we have Christ living within us and are partakers of the Divine nature.

The fact that we disobey God and push the saving grace from our souls at times, is just that, a fact. So we come to Jesus and the presbyters(james 5:14)he gave us to receive the mercy and grace and love and forgiveness He wants us to have.

peace, papist

Aibrean · Jun 20, 2009

Church attendance is not a requirement for a salvation. We are only required to be a part of the body of Christ through our faith.

For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

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