For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

No, I don't think that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Just because your friend was raised Catholic and decided to leave the Church for a Protestant denomination, doesn't mean he will not be saved. Obviously, your friend had reasons to leave. I'm assuming because he did not believe in what the Catholic Church taught. Hearing and rejecting is different that truly believing and rejecting. I know some Catholics who just leave because they think there are too many rules etc... But, they still believe in Christs true presence, and other Dogmas. I think, if I was taught correctly, that is what we teach. Can any other Catholics back this up?

Kat8765 said:

No, I don't think that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Just because your friend was raised Catholic and decided to leave the Church for a Protestant denomination, doesn't mean he will not be saved. Obviously, your friend had reasons to leave. I'm assuming because he did not believe in what the Catholic Church taught. Hearing and rejecting is different that truly believing and rejecting. I know some Catholics who just leave because they think there are too many rules etc... But, they still believe in Christs true presence, and other Dogmas. I think, if I was taught correctly, that is what we teach. Can any other Catholics back this up?

Click to expand...

Yes, other Catholic input would be helpful here. My friend would tell you that he truly did believe Catholic doctrine. However, after reading the Bible he rejected those things such as the four Marian dogmas, justification by works and faith, baptismal regeneration which run counter to scripture (at least as he understands scripture and as Protestants understand it, as well). His wife, who is still Catholic, once remarked that he is a saint, meaning that he was sinless. In all their years of marriage she had never known him to sin once, so I am certain that it was not a matter of keeping rules. He does not believe in transubstantiation. The bottom line is that he would probably fall into the category of someone who will not be saved, according to what you understand.

bbbbbbb said:

This is a question I would like Catholics to address for me. For centuries the Pope has adamantly insisted that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. In recent years there have been papal statements to the effect that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, particularly with those churches that employ a trinitarian formula for baptism. Yet, on the other hand, I hear from the same Popes that only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of salvation.

My question then, is how are non-Catholics saved? i.e. do they spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics? Are Catholics given front-row seats in heaven reserved only for those having the fullness of salvation? What are the differences, if any, between salvation and full salvation?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hi,
we believe that indeed there is salvation only in the Church.. so what the Popes have said is true.. However, I think many people misinterpret that and think that it means that non Catholics can't be saved. But we believe that all Christians are PART OF the Church. Only Catholics are in perfect communion with it. Orthodox are in imperfect communion, Protestants (and all baptized non Catholics, or just anyone who believes in Christ) is partially united to the Church through their baptism/faith. So they can definitely be saved too. There is no contradiction in what the Popes have said in the past, and what they are saying now, if you keep in mind what we believe the Church to be. It is visible, but has an invisible component; we know where it is, not where it is not.

As for how non Catholics are saved.. we leave such questions to God.. there is a verse; to whom much is given much is expected. If someone has the Sacraments, the Church teachings, etc, but ignores them all and lives a sinful life, they would be worse off than someone who had none of those things yet loved Christ with all their heart. God looks at individuals, not just what church they went to. But the reason church is important, and the reason we believe it's important to be Catholic, is because of the graces God is offering to us in the Sacraments....He is working through the Church to bring us to greater sanctification, if only we accept these gifts
If someone rejects the Sacraments, the Church, etc, with full understanding and intent; if instead of humbly seeking God's will, they reject every opportunity He gives them to lead them to the truth.. IF they'll be saved, they might have to spend a lot of time in purgatory for this. But it all comes down to the person's heart. And only God knows this. We don't... so we try not to make judgements on particular individuals. God knows there are non Catholics who love the Lord more than I do. They might have more glory in heaven than me, even though I'm Catholic, in fact I might be judged more harshly cause I was given the Sacraments, etc.

God bless

In my understanding, the Church teaches that we can not know if someone will be saved or not... only God knows for sure.. we can only make hypothetical statements. So I can not say anything about your friend.. I guess it all depends on why he decided to leave the Church, why he disagreed with the doctrines, how honest/sincere was he in seeking the truth, etc. If someone rejects the Church out of pride, etc, that's definitely mortal sin. But we can't know who those people are for sure.
God bless

MoNiCa4316 said:

In my understanding, the Church teaches that we can not know if someone will be saved or not... only God knows for sure.. we can only make hypothetical statements. So I can not say anything about your friend.. I guess it all depends on why he decided to leave the Church, why he disagreed with the doctrines, how honest/sincere was he in seeking the truth, etc. If someone rejects the Church out of pride, etc, that's definitely mortal sin. But we can't know who those people are for sure.
God bless

Click to expand...

Thanks for the additional insights, MoNiCa. While you are absolutely correct, in my view, about my friend's situation, the Catholic Catechism is much more precise in stating that any Catholic who leaves the Church and joins any other church cannot be saved. In fact, it says that anyone who knowingly joins any other church cannot be saved unless they repent and return to the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church never has dogmatically stated that any particular individual is lost, but it has stated the means whereby people will be eternally lost. Thus, if one conforms to those means then we can logically believe that they are lost.

bbbbbbb said:

Thanks for the additional insights, MoNiCa. While you are absolutely correct, in my view, about my friend's situation, the Catholic Catechism is much more precise in stating that any Catholic who leaves the Church and joins any other church cannot be saved. In fact, it says that anyone who knowingly joins any other church cannot be saved unless they repent and return to the Catholic Church.

Click to expand...

It's not a matter of simply switching Churches as you seem to imply. As we've pointed out earlier in this thread, Catholic doctrine also points out exceptions for certain cases. For example, there's the issue of vincible vs. invincible ignorance, lunacy, etc. If a person chooses to leave the Church knowing fully well what the Church stands for, then the person is almost guaranteed loss of salvation (I say *almost* since there's always the possibility of repentance). If the person leaves based on misunderstanding or ignorance, there is still the possibility of them being saved.

Again, I must reiterate that Catholic doctrine points out specifically that it is possible for salvation to occur outside the confines of the Church.

Catholicism is not an 'either or' faith we admit that there are exceptions to many rules! For example..we believe that the normal way of being 'born again' is through baptism. But there's also 'baptism of desire'! etc. And we believe in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) but if someone dies in a state of repentance but without having had a chance to talk to a priest (through no fault of their own), it's as if they have gone to confession.

bbbbbbb said:

Thanks for the additional insights, MoNiCa. While you are absolutely correct, in my view, about my friend's situation, the Catholic Catechism is much more precise in stating that any Catholic who leaves the Church and joins any other church cannot be saved. In fact, it says that anyone who knowingly joins any other church cannot be saved unless they repent and return to the Catholic Church.

Click to expand...

the key word is 'knowingly'. It's just like mortal sin. With full knowledge and intent. If someone leaves over a genuine disagreement, that MAY be something else. If they know that the Church is right but leave it out of anger/pride/etc.. that's a big sin, because they have knowingly denied Christ's Church, His Sacraments, the truth, etc.

The Catholic Church never has dogmatically stated that any particular individual is lost, but it has stated the means whereby people will be eternally lost. Thus, if one conforms to those means then we can logically believe that they are lost.

Click to expand...

that is true, but we can not know who conforms to these means and who does not..

God bless

Thanks, MoNiCa, for your gracious replies. Changing topics slightly, what is your understanding of dogma, particularly the four Marian dogmas. It is my understanding that these dogmas must be believed in order to be saved and that mere ignorance of them will not suffice because they are dogmatic. As I am sure you are well aware, none of Christianity outside of the Catholic church holds these as dogmatic beliefs essential to salvation and Protestantism, in particular, rejects all of them.

bbbbbbb said:

Thanks, MoNiCa, for your gracious replies. Changing topics slightly, what is your understanding of dogma, particularly the four Marian dogmas. It is my understanding that these dogmas must be believed in order to be saved and that mere ignorance of them will not suffice because they are dogmatic. As I am sure you are well aware, none of Christianity outside of the Catholic church holds these as dogmatic beliefs essential to salvation and Protestantism, in particular, rejects all of them.

Click to expand...

Hi,
well for those who don't know, the 4 Marian dogmas are:
- Mary is the Mother of God
- Perpetual virginity
- Immaculate Conception
- Assumption

1, 2, and 4 are also believed by the Orthodox. They disagree with the immaculate conception cause they don't believe in original sin, but they agree that Mary did not commit any sins during her whole life. So really the Orthodox view on Mary is much closer than the Protestant view.

As for dogma and salvation.
Here is a list of Catholic dogmas:
http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm

It's not as simple as - believe these things and go to heaven, don't believe them, go to hell. Of course if this were true, then only Catholics would have a chance of salvation, and the Church teaches that others could be saved too. If someone is lead by God to believe in any of these dogmas but rejects them, this could be a sin. If they don't understand them, or just don't believe them, it's more complex. The simple answer is that if they follow Jesus they can be saved.
What dogma is: something that the Church has stated is the truth, and the faithful (Catholics) are obligated to believe it. If they don't believe it, they're going against Church teaching. The concept of dogma clarifies the role of the Church as the interpreter of Scripture and the foundation of correct theological understanding. As it says in the Bible, the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

God bless

MoNiCa4316 said:

Hi,
well for those who don't know, the 4 Marian dogmas are:
- Mary is the Mother of God
- Perpetual virginity
- Immaculate Conception
- Assumption

1, 2, and 4 are also believed by the Orthodox. They disagree with the immaculate conception cause they don't believe in original sin, but they agree that Mary did not commit any sins during her whole life. So really the Orthodox view on Mary is much closer than the Protestant view.

As for dogma and salvation.
Here is a list of Catholic dogmas:
http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm

It's not as simple as - believe these things and go to heaven, don't believe them, go to hell. Of course if this were true, then only Catholics would have a chance of salvation, and the Church teaches that others could be saved too. If someone is lead by God to believe in any of these dogmas but rejects them, this could be a sin. If they don't understand them, or just don't believe them, it's more complex. The simple answer is that if they follow Jesus they can be saved.
What dogma is: something that the Church has stated is the truth, and the faithful (Catholics) are obligated to believe it. If they don't believe it, they're going against Church teaching. The concept of dogma clarifies the role of the Church as the interpreter of Scripture and the foundation of correct theological understanding. As it says in the Bible, the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

God bless

Click to expand...

My apologies, MoNiCa, for the lengthy delay in replying to your excellent response.

Your clarification of the four Marian dogmas is very helpful. I agree that the Orthodox view is considerably closer to the Catholic dogmas than the Protestant view, but neither the Orthodox nor Protestants have declared any of these (or alternate dogmas) as infallible doctrine which must be believed by the faithful. apart from which salvation can (and will) be denied.

Catholicism has never been a simple matter of faith only, but has been, at least since the Council of Trent, a matter of faith and various works in a highly complex mixture. It is true that if one follows Jesus they will be saved - a point on which I believe all Christians are in agreement. However, is it not true that Jesus would never lead His people into another church other than His own and that the Catholic church fully believes itself to be that one church? Thus, if one claims to be following Jesus, as most Protestants do, and believe they are led to join a Protestant church and not to join the Catholic church, knowing and understanding the differences, then according to Catholic teaching they would not be following Jesus and will risk the salvation of their eternal souls.

If you know that the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus founded, and you agree that all of the Catholic teachings are true then I think you would be obligated to become Catholic. Why would you not join Jesus' church if you had the chance? I think most Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is not the original church and they do not believe the church Dogmas. If someome is truly searching for all that is good and holy. If they are searching for the light that is Jesus, and with all of their heart they believe they have found this, then the Catholic Church has no problem in assuming that you will have eternal salvation. We do not condemn Protestants. We call them brothers and sisters in Christ, as I would hope Protestants would do with fellow Catholics.



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
~CCC

Kat8765 said:

If you know that the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus founded, and you agree that all of the Catholic teachings are true then I think you would be obligated to become Catholic. Why would you not join Jesus' church if you had the chance? I think most Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is not the original church and they do not believe the church Dogmas. If someome is truly searching for all that is good and holy. If they are searching for the light that is Jesus, and with all of their heart they believe they have found this, then the Catholic Church has no problem in assuming that you will have eternal salvation. We do not condemn Protestants. We call them brothers and sisters in Christ, as I would hope Protestants would do with fellow Catholics.



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
~CCC

Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification. I think that most Protestants recognize Catholics as Christians even though they do not recognize the Catholic Church as God's only church.

Thanks also for the quote from the Cathechism and the highlighted portion. I think it would be difficult, at best, to determine what "knowing" really entails. My personal opinion is that most Protestants do know the claims of the Catholic Church and do refuse to enter it. That sort of knowledge, however, is not the same as believing it to be true and then refusing it, which is what I think you understand. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Thanks.

bbbbbbb- I think you said it perfectly.

God Bless

Thanks again.

Hello. I Am Becky. I Love To Meet Other Christian Brothers And Sisters Around The World By Sharing The Words Of God.bless Is The One Who Hears And Follows The Way Of The Lord.i Also Like To Mingle With Christians Brothers And Sisters In Other Places To Know More About Their Difference Features, Behaviours, Characters, Languages,values Etc. I Can Be Reach Thru

bbbbbbb said:

This is a question I would like Catholics to address for me. For centuries the Pope has adamantly insisted that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. In recent years there have been papal statements to the effect that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, particularly with those churches that employ a trinitarian formula for baptism. Yet, on the other hand, I hear from the same Popes that only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of salvation.

My question then, is how are non-Catholics saved? i.e. do they spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics? Are Catholics given front-row seats in heaven reserved only for those having the fullness of salvation? What are the differences, if any, between salvation and full salvation?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Firstly, this does not mean that call Catholics are saved - it isn't a membership trip - grace alone saves. Secondly, we have to define what we mean by Church, and how people belong to it by extension. Some theologians speculate that anyone who is baptized is received into the Universal Church by extension of being introduced to the Mystical Body of Christ, yet, however, this connection or introduction to the Mystical Body of Christ given by the re-birth of the Spirit, is not a full-communion but a communion nonetheless.

ChrisPietraszko said:

Firstly, this does not mean that call Catholics are saved - it isn't a membership trip - grace alone saves. Secondly, we have to define what we mean by Church, and how people belong to it by extension. Some theologians speculate that anyone who is baptized is received into the Universal Church by extension of being introduced to the Mystical Body of Christ, yet, however, this connection or introduction to the Mystical Body of Christ given by the re-birth of the Spirit, is not a full-communion but a communion nonetheless.

Click to expand...

Grace alone saves, but the Catholic church teaches that certain sacraments are necessary for God to provide grace. These are means of grace whereby God saves His people. In current Catholic theology one can be saved if one has received a trinitarian rite of baptism but one cannot be saved without it. That includes both the Eastern Orthodox churches and the majority of Protestant churches.

If baptism is the essential sacrament which provides salvation, then all who have received it will be saved. That includes all Catholics and many non-Catholic Christians. The Catholic church also teaches that there is something called the "fullness of salvation" which is exclusive to it. I take that to mean other sacraments as means of God's grace. If one is saved (through baptism) how does one become more saved through the fullness of salvation? Or is baptism merely a temporary or conditional form of salvation which disappears in due time, leaving only some Catholics saved?

Grace alone saves.....

Click to expand...

Correct

bbbbbbb said:

...If baptism is the essential sacrament which provides salvation, then all who have received it will be saved....

Click to expand...

Not true, because we reject OSAS

...The Catholic church also teaches that there is something called the "fullness of salvation" which is exclusive to it....

Click to expand...

Never heard of iit. Please show me that in the Catechism

katholikos said:

Correct
Not true, because we reject OSAS

Never heard of iit. Please show me that in the Catechism

Click to expand...

Perhaps you did not get this homily a little over a year ago. https://www.cuf.org/Homilies/Archive/010608b.asp In it you can read how the process of evangelization includes the proclamation of the "fullness of salvation through the Church." If this is proclaimed by the Pope, but not in the Cathechism, who are we to believe?

bbbbbbb said:

Perhaps you did not get this homily a little over a year ago. https://www.cuf.org/Homilies/Archive/010608b.asp In it you can read how the process of evangelization includes the proclamation of the "fullness of salvation through the Church." If this is proclaimed by the Pope, but not in the Cathechism, who are we to believe?

Click to expand...

saying the Catholic Church has the "fullness of salvation" would be like saying " the Catholic Church has the most correct understanding of the Divine Revelation from God and that our practices and Traditions are spiritualy healthy" I think it is something very close to that which is being said.
This does not mean that there people in other Christian denominations are not saved, Christ came to take away sin from mankind, I am sure many many many Christians in all denominations are being saved
but that is inspite of the errors in doctrine and the traditions or practices that might not be inclinded to fostering spiritual health