For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

[Technocrat2010]

That is the modern Catholic argument - that no Pope has ever anathematized anyone, that is, condemned or cursed, anyone. Thus the yawning silence has been invented, eradicating centuries of papal bulls and anathemas.

I'm sorry - can you further elaborate as to how it must follow that because the Pope has not specifically condemned/cursed anyone to Hell that the papal bulls and anathemas are somehow eradicated?

In doing so, however, it leaves open to debate whether or not the Catholic church teaches and believes its doctrine that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

 

[MrPolo]

Can you give me a specific instance in the Bible where Jesus condemned any specific person to Hell?

I'd be curious to read this as well.

 

[calluna]

I'd be curious to read this as well.

Naturally. Catholics have to squint down a microscope to observe a tiny leaf cell of innocence rather than stand back and gaze at a whole rainforest of vile acts. They have no choice.

 

[Technocrat2010]

Naturally. Catholics have to squint down a microscope to observe a tiny leaf cell of innocence rather than stand back and gaze at a whole rainforest of vile acts. They have no choice.

Allow me to give you the opportunity to contribute productively to this discussion rather than spouting empty rhetoric... by reminding you of my earlier requests:

You stated that these Neo-Reformers know more about the Church's teachings than the average Catholic. Please demonstrate its validity.

And

Since when does the public eye determine truth?

 

[calluna]

Naturally. Catholics have to squint down a microscope to observe a tiny leaf cell of innocence rather than stand back and gaze at a whole rainforest of vile acts.

Which never cease.

 

[Technocrat2010]

Which never cease.

Hmm... perhaps you could give additional insight into the question I posed to bbbbbbb:

Can you give me a specific instance in the Bible where Jesus condemned any specific person to Hell?

In addition to my other requests...

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'd be curious to read this as well.

Apparently you missed my post #40. The answer was Revelation 20, especially the last five verses. Also, you might consider Matthew 23. I hope this satisfies your curiousity.

 

[bbbbbbb]

[/color][/color]

I'm sorry - can you further elaborate as to how it must follow that because the Pope has not specifically condemned/cursed anyone to Hell that the papal bulls and anathemas are somehow eradicated?

They obviously are not eradicated in the sense that they have been physically destroyed. However, they have been rendered meaningless in terms of their content which, in some cases, is quite specific and quite graphic. Revisionist Catholic historians have been working overtime to mitigate the plain language of these documents to force meanings to them which were never intended by their authors.


http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

Thank you for the most excellent link. It clarifies many issues in my mind. According to the link, all members of churches other than the Roman Catholic church are condemned to hell because they have purposefully joined a schismatic church and failed to repent and join the Catholic church. Thus, their baptism in these churches is rendered invalid if they join these churches. However, if they never join these churches, or any other, and remain indifferent to Christianity, although having been baptized, then they are assured of heaven. Even people who are never baptized with a trinitarian formula can go to heaven, as by the baptism of blood or the baptism of desire. However, heaven forfend, that someone actually takes their beliefs seriously and joins a church other than the Roman Catholic Church.

Thus it stands that there is, indeed, no salvation in any other church or religion than the Roman Catholic religion. Thus saith the link.

 

[Technocrat2010]

They obviously are not eradicated in the sense that they have been physically destroyed. However, they have been rendered meaningless in terms of their content which, in some cases, is quite specific and quite graphic. Revisionist Catholic historians have been working overtime to mitigate the plain language of these documents to force meanings to them which were never intended by their authors.

Examples, please.

Thank you for the most excellent link. It clarifies many issues in my mind. According to the link, all members of churches other than the Roman Catholic church are condemned to hell because they have purposefully joined a schismatic church and failed to repent and join the Catholic church.

What??? Please provide a citation to demonstrate your point.

Thus, their baptism in these churches is rendered invalid if they join these churches. However, if they never join these churches, or any other, and remain indifferent to Christianity, although having been baptized, then they are assured of heaven. Even people who are never baptized with a trinitarian formula can go to heaven, as by the baptism of blood or the baptism of desire. However, heaven forfend, that someone actually takes their beliefs seriously and joins a church other than the Roman Catholic Church.

Thus it stands that there is, indeed, no salvation in any other church or religion than the Roman Catholic religion. Thus saith the link.

In the link, it said:

They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC847).

CCC 846:

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

CCC 847:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

Please demonstrate the validity of your claims with citations from the link.

 

[bbbbbbb]

[/color]

Examples, please.

[/color][/color]

What??? Please provide a citation to demonstrate your point.



In the link, it said:



CCC 846:

[/size]CCC 847:

[/size]Please demonstrate the validity of your claims with citations from the link.

Glady, here is the paragraph from the link for your examination -

"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."

It specifically states that for those who join a "schismatic church" no salvation is possible until they repent and return to live in Catholic unity. Thus, all members of churches outside of the Catholic church have no salvation (i.e. are condemned to an eternity in hell) until they repent and return to live in Catholic unity.

The only exceptions to this fiat would be for those who have been baptized (with water using a trinitarian formula, with blood, or with desire) but who do not join any other church than the Catholic church. Thus, for those baptized in water with a trinitarian formula who remain otherwise indifferent to Christianity and do not join any church, salvation is granted.

 

[bbbbbbb]

[/color]

Examples, please.

[/color][/color]

What??? Please provide a citation to demonstrate your point.



In the link, it said:



CCC 846:

[/size]CCC 847:

[/size]Please demonstrate the validity of your claims with citations from the link.

Here 'tis. Read it for yourself as see if you don't agree with me.

​

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Technocrat2010]

Here 'tis. Read it for yourself as see if you don't agree with me.

​

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm sorry - all I see is Luther being deemed a heretic. Is there anything there that condemned him to Hell?

No, I didn't think so either.

Being a heretic does not prohibit any possibility of repentance and renewal in Christ. Keep looking.

 

[Technocrat2010]

Glady, here is the paragraph from the link for your examination -

"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."

It specifically states that for those who join a "schismatic church" no salvation is possible until they repent and return to live in Catholic unity. Thus, all members of churches outside of the Catholic church have no salvation (i.e. are condemned to an eternity in hell) until they repent and return to live in Catholic unity.

That's not all it says. The paragraph states that those who knowingly do so will have a problem. In order to knowingly do so, you need to know what it is the Church teaches. You need to understand the teachings of the Church before you can fall into this category. You are ignoring the condition that people must understand what the Church teaches, and then willingly ignore those teachings, in order for them to fit the category described in that paragraph.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's not all it says. The paragraph states that those who knowingly do so will have a problem. In order to knowingly do so, you need to know what it is the Church teaches. You need to understand the teachings of the Church before you can fall into this category. You are ignoring the condition that people must understand what the Church teaches, and then willingly ignore those teachings, in order for them to fit the category described in that paragraph.

I don't know about the Roman Catholic Church, but I do know that the vast majority of Protestant and Orthodox Churches do their level best to be certain that those who enter into their membership do it knowingly. I would roughly guess that 99% or better of these members have entered into membership knowingly. Thus, because they are members of schismatic churches they cannot enter into salvation until they repent and embrace Roman Catholicism according to that paragraph.

The possibility has occurred to me that you might think that a person who is a member of another church unbeknownst to the Roman Catholic Church will be saved because they have not contacted their local Roman Catholic parish and requested excommunication. I think the Council of Trent dealt a death blow to that notion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm sorry - all I see is Luther being deemed a heretic. Is there anything there that condemned him to Hell?

No, I didn't think so either.

Being a heretic does not prohibit any possibility of repentance and renewal in Christ. Keep looking.

How's this for a good description of anathema?
http://newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

To save you the trouble, I will agree that, as the article states, most (but not all) anathemas have included minor escape clauses for the one being anathemtized. So, when Luther and his followers were anathematized did they enter into the joys of heaven after death or were they condemned to an eternity in hell?

 

[Technocrat2010]

I don't know about the Roman Catholic Church, but I do know that the vast majority of Protestant and Orthodox Churches do their level best to be certain that those who enter into their membership do it knowingly. I would roughly guess that 99% or better of these members have entered into membership knowingly. Thus, because they are members of schismatic churches they cannot enter into salvation until they repent and embrace Roman Catholicism according to that paragraph.

Again you twist my words. I am talking about knowing and understanding what the Church teaches, that is, the Catholic Church. Understanding what a Protestant church teaches does not logically require that you fully understand what the Catholic Church teaches.

The possibility has occurred to me that you might think that a person who is a member of another church unbeknownst to the Roman Catholic Church will be saved because they have not contacted their local Roman Catholic parish and requested excommunication. I think the Council of Trent dealt a death blow to that notion.

Can you clarify this?

 

[Technocrat2010]

How's this for a good description of anathema?
http://newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

To save you the trouble, I will agree that, as the article states, most (but not all) anathemas have included minor escape clauses for the one being anathemtized. So, when Luther and his followers were anathematized did they enter into the joys of heaven after death or were they condemned to an eternity in hell?

Please show me a single anathema that offers no "escape clause" whatsoever.

As for Luther - I have no clue.

 

[Technocrat2010]

How's this for a good description of anathema?
http://newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

To save you the trouble, I will agree that, as the article states, most (but not all) anathemas have included minor escape clauses for the one being anathemtized. So, when Luther and his followers were anathematized did they enter into the joys of heaven after death or were they condemned to an eternity in hell?

Please show me a single anathema that offers no "escape clause" whatsoever.

As for Luther - I have no clue. It depends on whether or not he repented before death.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again you twist my words. I am talking about knowing and understanding what the Church teaches, that is, the Catholic Church. Understanding what a Protestant church teaches does not logically require that you fully understand what the Catholic Church teaches.

I regret that we have a misunderstanding here and thank you for explaining your thoughts for me. Unfortunately, the Orthodox and Protestant Churches are also churches and are part of the mystical body of Christ which is His Church, whether you choose to believe this or not. If they are not, as you state, then they cannot partake of any of His salvation as your link stated. These churches are hardly focussed on Roman Catholic dogma and really don't have much, if any, interest in it. Thus, their members enter membership knowingly believing the dogma of these particular churches and neither accepting nor rejecting Roman Catholic dogma. However, as members of these churches, according to your link, they are anathematized until they repent and embrace the Roman Catholic church. It does not require an active repudiation of Roman Catholic dogma to be damned, but it does require an active acceptance and belief in Roman Catholicism to be saved, according to your link.

Can you clarify this?

What I meant here is the apparent belief that Orthodox and Protestants will be saved unless they knowingly reject Roman Catholic dogma. In this case ignorance is bliss. The RCC can consider all of these individuals to be members of The Church unless they actively reject Roman Catholic dogma. To do so seems to require a request for excommunication.

As a secondary issue, if I, as a non-Roman Catholic knowingly reject Catholic dogma will the Pope give me a major excommunication? I rather enjoyed the description of the pomp and ceremony involved in it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Please show me a single anathema that offers no "escape clause" whatsoever.

As for Luther - I have no clue. It depends on whether or not he repented before death.

. The Church, animated by the spirit of God, does not wish the death of the sinner, but rather that he be converted and live. This explains why the most severe and terrifying formulas of excommunication, containing all the rigours of the Maranatha have, as a rule, clauses like this: Unless he becomes repentant, or gives satisfaction, or is corrected.

This is from the final paragraph of the cited article. The addition of the words "as a rule" indicates that there are exceptions to this rule. If there were no exceptions the it would have stated "invariably" or some such wording. Thus, one is led to believe that there are exceptions to this rule.

As for Luther, it is a historically verifiable fact that he did not repent prior to his death and renounce his beliefs nor did he receive the Last Rites (a.k.a. extreme unction) of the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, according to the anathema pronounced upon him, he is frying his chestnuts in hell right now according to your church.