For all eternity - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before God to Worship"

[BobRyan]

I happen to be a happy joyful Torah keeper. My family and I have had wonderful experiences.

EG. I saw that Sabbath keeping was instructed BEFORE the Mosaic Covenant.
I knew Sabbath keepers who had amazing experiences.
I asked Jesus about it, and when I was sure/convinced it was God's will for me, I started resting and worshipping God from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. No work for me or my family. We rest and worship together.
IMMEDIATELY many little things in my life straightened out! I was astounded! How could so many little things change simply because my family and I worshipped and rested on the Biblical Sabbath?

A very nice post.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away.

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

And even then -- it will still not be right to take God's name in vain -- as I know we both agree.

But there will be a great many straw-men raised up against the idea of obeying the Word of God --

At least that is what Paul says in Romans 8:4-9.

 

[Truthfrees]

And even then -- it will still not be right to take God's name in vain -- as I know we both agree.

But there will be a great many straw-men raised up against the idea of obeying the Word of God --

At least that is what Paul says in Romans 8:4-9.

I was reminded last night that there are some special people I know that get under SEVERE condemnation when they even read Torah.

I was trying to think back to my personal experiences and I remembered how I grew up in a gracious denomination where we were all hoping to go to heaven, and we all tried to behave like Christians. We didn't know about born again and Spirit filled.

I got Born Again and Spirit filled in a gracious Charismatic fellowship that closed.

Then I switched to a charismatic fellowship that was very legalistic and within a short time I was was genuinely doubting my salvation.

Then I heard and studied the grace message. It totally and permanently set me free from all condemnation.

I remember though, while I was still under severe condemnation, reading anything in the Bible (NT or OT) would put me under instant condemnation.

I wonder if that isn't what is going on with some of the reaction toward Torah?

I started Torah keeping after I was fully immersed/convinced of the GRACE of God.

Torah and legalism creates a toxic environment. IMO, this is what Paul talks about - legalistically keeping Torah, thinking this is the way to earn salvation. He uses the words faith, grace, gospel (good news) a lot. Torah keeping should be done with faith, grace, joy (good news attitude).

For me, Torah and GRACE creates a wonderful life!

I do everything with God's grace-ability as Paul says: Philippians 4:13, Colossians 1:29, Zechariah 4:6

I found out many years ago that my own ability always fell disappointingly short. Romans 3:23

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I was reminded last night that there are some special people I know that get under SEVERE condemnation when they even read Torah.

Possibly "CONVICTION"?
as in EVERYONE who reads TORAH , IF they are alive, ARE CONVICTED by YHWH'S SPIRIT while reading or hearing TORAH,
and
they SHOULD BE !

AS YHWH SAYS , EVERYONE BLESSED DELIGHTS IN TORAH ! Meditating DAY AND NIGHT on TORAH - don't let the WORD fail to be found in thy mouth.
REMEMBER TORAH. MUMBLE TORAH (memorize, remember, repeat often every day) for BLESSING as YHWH SAYS OFTEN.

 

[Bob S]

I was reminded last night that there are some special people I know that get under SEVERE condemnation when they even read Torah.

I was trying to think back to my personal experiences and I remembered how I grew up in a gracious denomination where we were all hoping to go to heaven, and we all tried to behave like Christians. We didn't know about born again and Spirit filled.

I got Born Again and Spirit filled in a gracious Charismatic fellowship that closed.

Then I switched to a charismatic fellowship that was very legalistic and within a short time I was was genuinely doubting my salvation.

Then I heard and studied the grace message. It totally and permanently set me free from all condemnation.

I remember though, while I was still under severe condemnation, reading anything in the Bible (NT or OT) would put me under instant condemnation.

I wonder if that isn't what is going on with some of the reaction toward Torah?

I started Torah keeping after I was fully immersed/convinced of the GRACE of God.

Torah and legalism creates a toxic environment. IMO, this is what Paul talks about - legalistically keeping Torah, thinking this is the way to earn salvation. He uses the words faith, grace, gospel (good news) a lot. Torah keeping should be done with faith, grace, joy (good news attitude).

For me, Torah and GRACE creates a wonderful life!

I do everything with God's grace-ability as Paul says: Philippians 4:13, Colossians 1:29, Zechariah 4:6

I found out many years ago that my own ability always fell disappointingly short. Romans 3:23

I have presented the following verses to many who believe they are either under Torah or at least the weekly Sabbath. If you would tell me what you believe about these verses. To me they negate the old covenant.

7 The Law of Moses was written on stone and it brought death. But God’s shining-greatness was seen when it was given. When Moses took it to the Jews, they could not look at his face because of the bright light. But that bright light in his face began to pass away. 8 The new way of life through the Holy Spirit comes with much more shining-greatness. 9 If the Law of Moses, that leads to death, came in shining-greatness, how much greater and brighter is the light that makes us right with God? 10 The Law of Moses came with shining-greatness long ago. But that light is no longer bright. The shining-greatness of the New Way of Worship that brings us life is so much brighter. 11 The shining light that came with the Law of Moses soon passed away. But the new way of life is much brighter. It will never pass away. 2Cor3:7-11

Or

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have presented the following verses to many who believe they are either under Torah or at least the weekly Sabbath. If you would tell me what you believe about these verses. To me they negate the old covenant.

It doesn't matter if they do
or
if they do not negate the old covenant, as you put it.
No one is "under" Torah
and
no one is "under" the weekly Sabbath (YHWH'S SABBATH).

 

[Truthfrees]

 

[Truthfrees]

To properly understand what Paul really says about Torah, going through all of Paul's letters one at a time, chapter by chapter, slowly would be the best way.

Peter said Paul's writings are difficult to understand. 2 Peter 3:16

I believe this is the source of the misunderstanding of what Paul is saying.

I believe Paul was combating the Acts 15 argument that Gentiles could not possibly be saved unless they were first circumcised.

This is the reason for all the difficult statements Paul makes.

The basics for me are both Jesus and Paul tell us to keep Torah, and all Paul's "instructions" are actually quotes of the OT: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

From that foundation, I believe all Paul's difficult statements are to make sure no one is legalistically working and thinking that Torah observance leads to salvation.

This truth is very important - if people even slightly think Torah observance saves them, the work Jesus died for on the Cross is made null and void.

 

[Truthfrees]

7 The Law of Moses was written on stone and it brought death. But God’s shining-greatness was seen when it was given. When Moses took it to the Jews, they could not look at his face because of the bright light. But that bright light in his face began to pass away. 8 The new way of life through the Holy Spirit comes with much more shining-greatness. 9 If the Law of Moses, that leads to death, came in shining-greatness, how much greater and brighter is the light that makes us right with God? 10 The Law of Moses came with shining-greatness long ago. But that light is no longer bright. The shining-greatness of the New Way of Worship that brings us life is so much brighter. 11 The shining light that came with the Law of Moses soon passed away. But the new way of life is much brighter. It will never pass away. 2Cor3:7-11

Or

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Pro-Torah interpretation:

1. Paul says we are to establish the Torah, and use Torah properly. Romans 3:31, 1 Timothy 1:8

2. Why was Torah glorious when it was first given? It's the perfect holy Words of God. Romans 7:12, Psalms 19:7, Psalms 119:160

3. Why did Torah glory fade? Man's failure. Romans 8:3

4. When was man's human ability augmented to gloriously succeed in keeping Torah? The indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11

5. So is Torah now null and void? No. Romans 3:31, Matthew 5:17-19

6. We can keep it by the new ability we have, which is part of the awesome work Jesus did by His death on the Cross and His Resurrection from the dead. Romans 6:4

7. Why in this place and others does Paul call Torah the law of Moses, instead of calling it what it really is - Torah - God's words and instructions? In other places he calls it God's laws - Torah. Romans 7:22, Romans 8:7 Was he trying to compare man's use and interpretation of God's Words to the proper use of God's Words - Torah?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No.

Was he trying to compare man's use and interpretation of God's Words to the proper use of God's Words - Torah?

 

[BobRyan]

1. Paul says we are to establish the Torah, and use Torah properly. Romans 3:31, 1 Timothy 1:8

2. Why was Torah glorious when it was first given? It's the perfect holy Words of God. Romans 7:12, Psalms 19:7, Psalms 119:160

True - and also notice

Justified by Law is not what we are talking about under the New Covenant -- under the NC the TEN Commandments written on heart and mind

"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
"Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

When asked "which commandments?" Christ said

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself

 

[Bob S]

7 The Law of Moses was written on stone and it brought death. But God’s shining-greatness was seen when it was given. When Moses took it to the Jews, they could not look at his face because of the bright light. But that bright light in his face began to pass away. 8 The new way of life through the Holy Spirit comes with much more shining-greatness. 9 If the Law of Moses, that leads to death, came in shining-greatness, how much greater and brighter is the light that makes us right with God? 10 The Law of Moses came with shining-greatness long ago. But that light is no longer bright. The shining-greatness of the New Way of Worship that brings us life is so much brighter. 11 The shining light that came with the Law of Moses soon passed away. But the new way of life is much brighter. It will never pass away. 2Cor3:7-11

Or

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

ACTUALLY I might be able to give a quick answer now and add more later:

1. Paul says we are to establish the Torah, and use Torah properly. Romans 3:31, 1 Timothy 1:8

If you will only read the entire chapter of Rom3 you will see that Paul certainly is not telling man he is under the Torah. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Christians establish the moral law and not the ritual found in the book of the law. 1Tim certainly is not a verse promoting Torah for Christians.

2. Why was Torah glorious when it was first given? It's the perfect holy Words of God. Romans 7:12, Psalms 19:7, Psalms 119:160

It was glorious because Jesus had not given each one of them the Holy Spirit as their guide. 2Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

3. Why did Torah glory fade? Man's failure. Romans 8:3

It faded because the Israelites could not keep it and all the law could do is point out sin. It had no other function. Jesus blood is the only thing that saves. Also, notice that 2Cor3:7-11 tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary, transient.

4. When was man's human ability augmented to gloriously succeed in keeping Torah? The indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11

Not until Jesus gave it to us as a gift. By then Israel failed miserably and God negated the covenant relationship. The Torah was no longer the rules for the Jews. Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said.......13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Heb7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Hebrews gives us a great look at how we are to serve God. It certainly is not by the old covenant as you can plainly read.

5. So is Torah now null and void? No. Romans 3:31, Matthew 5:17-19

After reading the texts I presented plus Col2 and most of the books of Galatians and Ephesians I have to answer a big NO!

6. We can keep it by the new ability we have, which is part of the awesome work Jesus did by His death on the Cross and His Resurrection from the dead. Romans 6:4

No we cannot. Keep as in keep holy is something we have never achieved. The Israelites couldn't keep the ritual Sabbaths holy and neither can me or you. Do you turn you foot from doing your own pleasure by not thinking or talking about worldly things on Sabbaths? When some member comes in the parking lot with his shiny new car your thought process immediately goes from holy to carnal. We fall short do we not? Keep is a misnomer my friend and just think we are not commissioned to obseerve Sabbaths anyway.

7. Why in this place and others does Paul call Torah the law of Moses, instead of calling it what it really is - Torah - God's words and instructions? In other places he calls it God's laws - Torah. Romans 7:22, Romans 8:7 Was he trying to compare man's use and interpretation of God's Words to the proper use of God's Words - Torah?

Man I have no idea. Why in Rom 3:31 did Paul say what he did? Abraham's laws (Abrahamic covenant), Noah's laws (Noahide covenant) why do some people choose the Israelite covenant as being the laws we are to live by? Abraham was saved (by grace) observing the Abrahamic covenant. God's laws all have had blood to cover sin. Only the new covenant law does not repeat the blood command, but some will argue that we are not in the new covenant yet because Jesus metaphor "Heaven and Earth" have not passed away.

 

[Truthfrees]

A. We all agree that Torah keeping is not for salvation.

B. We all agree that whatever we do should be by faith and grace.

No one has ever been "under" Torah. That phraseology is unique to Paul.

We each have to decide to do as God says, and INTERPRET Paul in line with Pro-Torah God, or not.

God the Father and God the Son have never said Torah will pass away and become void. Paul's words must be interpreted in light of this.

1. God the Father and God the Son said Torah is eternal and to observe it.

2. Paul said to establish Torah, not void it. He said to use Torah properly.

3. James said faith without works [mitzvot] is dead.

4. John said if we love God we will keep His commands.

5. Jesus, Paul and all the Apostles quote only Torah when they give us "commands".

To Torah keepers this is just 5 of the many reasons we see an overwhelmingly mountain of Pro-Torah instructions.

Our consciences will never be able to ignore God the Father and God the Son, in favor of a terrible misunderstanding of Paul's words.

Paul's words can be properly explained in pro-Torah context:
"Torah is not for salvation, but is still to be established as a holy way of life for God-lovers under God the Father and God the Son."

 

[Truthfrees]

POINTS TO CONSIDER
There are a lot of scriptures warning against lawlessness and promoting obedience:

1. lawlessness:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lawless&qs_version=NKJV

2. obey God's commands: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=obey+command+&qs_version=NKJV

3. obedience is love: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+keep&qs_version=NKJV

4. obedience is wise: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=command+wise&qs_version=NKJV

 

[Truthfrees]

I understand how some people have trouble even keeping the NT laws, and therefore don't even want to tackle the OT laws.

This is possibly the reason for the decision in Acts 15:19-21.

Start with the minimum Torah requirements, and then allow each new believer to grow Sabbath to Sabbath as they here Moses being read.

This proves to me that the Gentile believers were attending synagogue on Sabbath.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

WHO promotes lawlessness ? hasatan

WHO OBEYED YHWH in the first century ? NO ONE OUTSIDE Y'SHUA (i.e. all the world was condemned, just like in the FLOOD)

WHO OBEYED YHWH THIS CENTURY ? NO ONE OUTSIDE Y'SHUA (i.e. all the world is condemned, just like in the FLOOD)

WHO promotes lawlessness ? The whole world outside Y'SHUA.

WHO LIES EVERYDAY ? The whole world outside Y'SHUA.

WHO IS SAVED TODAY ? EVERYONE IN(SIDE) Y'SHUA. (i.e. just like in the FLOOD everyone INSIDE the ARK was saved. ONLY 8 people out of millions)

IS Y'SHUA (JESUS) lawless ? HEAVEN FORBID ! CAN HE DENY HIMSELF !?

So, then, can ANYONE TODAY be SAVED ? Yes. GOD drew them to HIMSELF. They abide IN HIM, and are no longer outside HIM. They walk in union with HIM every day, doing the same 'works' as Y'SHUA did when HE was on earth in the flesh, a man, the MESSIAH GOD'S SALVATION.

Can they who walk in union with HIM every day break the law ? yes. but it grieves them deeply when they do. HE chastises HIS SONS whom HE LOVES, disciplines them as HIS SONS, as a GOOD FATHER DOES, training them to walk in righteousness by faith and in newness of life - NEW CREATIONS ! (yes! a spectacular gracious heavenly miracle!)

 

[Bob S]

Amen!

A. We all agree that Torah keeping is not for salvation.

B. We all agree that whatever we do should be by faith and grace.

Amen

No one has ever been "under" Torah. That phraseology is unique to Paul.

Do you have a reason for saying that? Paul was God's spokesman you know. He was not there to sabotage the present belief system. I don't see the significance in that Paul used word that had not been used before, do you really?

We each have to decide to do as God says, and INTERPRET Paul in line with Pro-Torah God, or not.

Please elaborate as to what God says. Paul mostly does not need to be interpreted. Who is it that makes God "pro torah"? Certainly it was not Paul nor any of the other writers that contributed to the New Testament. I am thing it has to be a figment of your imagination or a cliche from the group you worship with.

God the Father and God the Son have never said Torah will pass away and become void. Paul's words must be interpreted in light of this.

Oh yes Jesus said it would pass away. not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. The sacrificial system passed away. Even you admit that. The temple passed away, the whole Levitical system passed away, so that proves jots and tittles have passed away and the words Heaven and Earth are truly Metaphoric and not to be taken literally.

1. God the Father and God the Son said Torah is eternal and to observe it.

Please show me where. God said IF you keep Torah I will..... The covenant was conditional. God knew before the foundation of the Earth that man would fail at almost every point. That is when the plan of salvation was formed. Had Torah been everlasting, God would not have said If and the Godhead would not have formulated the plan of salvation. Jesus would not have come to Earth had Torah been
everlasting.

2. Paul said to establish Torah, not void it. He said to use Torah properly.

That is only your conclusion. You have not explained 2Cor 3:7-11 yet.

3. James said faith without works [mitzvot] is dead.

That is completely a misnomer. James was referring to works as in good deeds, Paul was referring works as in keeping Torah. Until I studied the book of James I was very confused because Paul wrote that works have nothing to do with salvation and James seemed to be disputing that telling us faith without works faith is dead. Again, James was referring to good deeds after one receives Jesus as Savior. Do to the least of these and you have done it to me. That is love and love is the Christians privilege, duty and blessing.

4. John said if we love God we will keep His commands.

Woops, you too are assuming that John was referring to Torah or at least the 10 commandments. Please read what John really meant:
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

5. Jesus, Paul and all the Apostles quote only Torah when they give us "commands".

Okay, I buy that. They quoted all the laws of Torah that deal with morality, how we are to treat our fellow man. After Jesus died for our sins there is nothing to indicate Christians are to keep the ritual laws of Torah.

To Torah keepers this is just 5 of the many reasons we see an overwhelmingly mountain of Pro-Torah instructions.

You have done an admirable job of presenting your beliefs. I pray I have given you some thoughts as to why I do not accept your overwhelmingly pro Torah reasoning.

Our consciences will never be able to ignore God the Father and God the Son, in favor of a terrible misunderstanding of Paul's words.

It is funny that I don't have trouble understanding Paul's words. Could it be that you have misunderstood Jesus words "Heaven and Earth" and all the writings of the Apostles then have to be interpreted to fit your misunderstanding of Matt 5:16,17?

Paul's words can be properly explained in pro-Torah context:
"Torah is not for salvation, but is still to be established as a holy way of life for God-lovers under God the Father and God the Son."

Sorry, Torah was never meant to be the law of the gentiles. Had God wanted gentiles to live under Torah He would have made it known to them. Torah was a way of life only to Israel. Those laws were especially formulated for them and them only. Your participation in a defunct system is not what God has for His children and hasn't been since the Cross. I know that you feel good where you are, but Christianity is not merely a feel good movement.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry, Torah was never meant to be the law of the gentiles. Had God wanted gentiles to live under Torah He would have made it known to them.

IT IS TRULY AMAZING
what WE CAN LEARN
IN THE BIBLE ! >>>>
Romans 2:12
All who have sinned outside the framework of Torah will die outside the framework of Torah; and all who have sinned within the framework of Torah will be judged by Torah.

Romans 2:13
For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God’s sight.

Romans 2:14
For whenever Gentiles, who have no Torah, do naturally what the Torah requires, then these, even though they don’t have Torah, for themselves are Torah!

 

[Bob S]

I just re-read this part above.

I understand.

Until NT laws are easy, OT laws seem like a burden.

Makes perfect sense.

Valid point.

This is possibly the reason for the decision in Acts 15:19-21.

I stand with you in prayer in the name of Jesus.

God bless you abundantly in your experience with God and His words, and the beauty of the glorious New Covenant life.

I'm confident that God's awesome love for you will result in the precious Holy Spirit leading you perfectly from faith to faith, and precept to precept.

Apologies for anything I said that caused you trouble in your walk with God. This is the priority. All else is secondary.

Your friend, TF

Your post is beautiful TF. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You are truly a brother in Christ and I consider you a real friend in Christ Jesus. You would make a great neighbor here in the hills of Eastern Tennessee. In comparison to your posts my posts reek with the over compassion I have to tell others of the good news of the new covenant. I wish I could be less aggressive and have more compassion for others feelings. The Holy Spirit has a big job to do in me. I cannot seem to tone it down enough although I have seen some progress. Your post have been an inspiration to me, even if in some points, I cannot wrap my mind around them. In Christ, Bob

P. S. Are we still on 2Cor 3:7-11?

 

[Bob S]

Hi again TF, if I had it to do over I would rewrite post #457 in a softer tone. I hope I do not offend you with my harshness. What is written is there for all to see, too bad.