For all eternity - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before God to Worship"

[Bob S]

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away.

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

That arguement proves that all of you that that as proof we are not in the new covenant age are not thinking. Is Heaven ever going to pass away? Yet there will be no use for Torah in Heaven. Man either passes the test here on Earth or He will not be in Heaven to contaminate the fatihful. The real fact is that the statement Jesus made about Heaven and Earth is a metaphor. Jesus QUALIFIED the statement with UNTIL ALL THINGS ARE COMPLETE. If Jesus didn't complete all He came to do then He isn't God. He defeated satan and gave mankind a way to have eternal life as it was to be in the beginning.

Also Jesus said until all things are complete.

Jesus has not returned yet so all things are not complete.

I don't know about you, but I have begun my eternal life journey and it happened when I accepted Jesus as my Savior. I await His return, but my salvation is complete. If He doesn't come before I die it does not make any difference in my salvation. The angels will be there to ussher me into eternity. Amen!

Worship of God is all anyone was ever told to do.

And how did Jesus tell us to worship God?

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

No one worships the Torah, they love the Torah because it is the words of God's mouth.

You can tell us this, but I really wonder. Torah was for only one specific group of people on this Earth. You can deny it, but you have to know it is the truth

Disregarding anything God said over a misunderstanding of what Paul said is a mistake.

Come on my friend, it is not easy to misunderstand Paul's writings. He knew the Torah was for Israel only. He was not blind to God's word for them. He knew Torah was not law for all mankind.

There's a lot of misunderstandings which call for a closer examination of scripture in context.

It appears you are looking at all the wrong places to get your answers.

The 3 scriptures I gave are sufficient to indicate that there needs to be a re-evaluation of what Paul was really saying.

And what about all the scriptures we have presented to you?

 

[Truthfrees]

Jesus has to come back to complete all things. He still has to set up His physical kingdom on earth. There are other prophecies He still has to fulfill. The book of Revelation is where you will find most of the prophecies Jesus still has to fulfill.

Here's a list of 365 prophecies Jesus has already fulfilled: https://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

I'm looking for a list of the ones Jesus still has to fulfill.

Here's a few:
Messiah comes in Judgment Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 19-21
1000 years Messiah's 1000 year reign Revelation 20:1-6

HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR
Heaven and earth will be rolled up like a scroll: Revelation 6:14, Isaiah 34:4

 

[Truthfrees]

And even then -- it will still not be right to take God's name in vain.

Amen! Excellent point!

It will forever be wrong to do the things God told us in Torah not to do.

 

[Bob S]

Jesus has to come back to complete all things. He still has to set up His physical kingdom on earth. There are other prophecies He still has to fulfill. The book of Revelation is where you will find most of the prophecies Jesus still has to fulfill.

Here's a list of 365 prophecies Jesus has already fulfilled: https://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

I'm looking for a list of the ones Jesus still has to fulfill.

Here's a few:
Messiah comes in Judgment Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 19-21
1000 years Messiah's 1000 year reign Revelation 20:1-6

HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR
Heaven and earth will be rolled up like a scroll: Revelation 6:14, Isaiah 34:4

Jesus fulfilled everything He CAME to do. He defeated satan and provided a way for man to gain salvation. The last words Jesus uttered before giving up the Ghost was IT IS FINISHED.

Look friend if your argument is correct then you have no excuse not to observe every jot and tittle of the Torah. But you say, Jesus is the final sacrifice, so we don't have to burn offerings anymore. Really? If no jot or tittle can be removed from Torah then Jews and those following Judaism must still burn offerings. To burn offerings you must have a special place to do that and you must have the priesthood to perform the ghastly chore.

To do all that is required of Torah you must be in a totalitarian government. Our government would not allow you to stone a person to death for some offense like not observing Sabbath correctly. What you are really practicing is nothing but pseudo Torah. We both know that is what you are doing if you hold firm to your argument. We both know that Paul would be opposed to your theory as his writings prove just the opposite.

Torah law ended at the Cross and it was for Israel only to begin with. God has never laid it upon Gentiles to observe days months or years. Gentiles didn't suffer and became slaves in Egypt. God didn't give Gentiles the weekly Sabbath as a reminder of Israel being delivered out of Egyptian bondage.Your whole theory is illogical and your defense of it is no defense.

Where does God dwell? Is He going to do away with Heaven? We know He will make this Earth new again. Does that mean that this Earth will be torn down or will it be a great renovation. The Earth will be made new is as much as we are privy to. We do know neither will disappear. Again, that is a metaphor. Jesus fulfilled what He came to do and we Christians are under the new covenant not under defunct Israel's Torah.

 

[Bob S]

Amen! Excellent point!

It will forever be wrong to do the things God told us in Torah not to do.

I agree with all my heart. Everything that God has given us in the realm of morality was/is and will be relevant until Jesus comes and and takes us home. In heaven we will be made perfect, so there will be no need for laws. Satan will be no more. The test will be over.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus fulfilled everything He CAME to do. He defeated satan and provided a way for man to gain salvation.
The last words Jesus uttered before giving up the Ghost was IT IS FINISHED.

True.

What He did not do is open a new door for saints to take God's name in vain and just imagine that it is now "a good thing"

 

[koolair]

I don't know why people continue to argue against the idea that the weekly Sabbath and the monthly new moon existed, continues to exist, and will continue to exist forever. It doesn't matter if your particular denomination doesn't recognize them, the fact is, they are recognized as lawful days of rest in the old and new testaments.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away.

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

You missed one important word used by Christ and confirmed by Paul.

Mat 5:18　 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.　


Gal 3:17　 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.　

Gal 3:18　 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.　

Gal 3:19　 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.　


Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　

.

 

[Truthfrees]

Torah was very specific.

Sacrifices had to be done PRECISELY the prescribed way, in the precise place. The Temple is no longer standing, so the sacrificial laws can't ever be followed again.

It's interesting to note that 7 years after Jesus' once for all sacrifice, the temple was closed by the Romans. I find that very interesting. God has provided a supernatural way to stop all sacrifices in 7 years, 7 being an important number in Hebrew. Then the temple was destroyed 30 years later.

Of the 613, only approximately 200 apply to regular people, because the rest were specifically for Cohanin, Levites, etc.

The lack of understanding of the 613 causes people to think they are not do-able, but Paul said his Torah keeping was perfect: Philippians 3:6.

If Paul could do it perfectly BEFORE being saved, then surely we who are born again and Spirit filled can do it by faith and the grace of God.

 

[Truthfrees]

There's more to Torah than morality that is presently applicable.

There are laws for judges, medical laws, the Feasts of the Lord are all about Yeshua, making them much more meaningful than the manmade ones.

Here's a list of the laws in categories: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

This website believes the laws are done away with, but his grouping of the laws in categories is outstanding, and easily reveals how good God's Torah is and how applicable it still is today.

 

[Truthfrees]

You missed one important word used by Christ and confirmed by Paul.

Mat 5:18　 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.　


Gal 3:17　 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.　

Gal 3:18　 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.　

Gal 3:19　 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.　


Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　

.

But notice how the passing of heaven and earth is tied to all being fulfilled?

There are still things to be fulfilled.

All that pertains to the once-for-all-sin sacrifice is finished, but that isn't everything messiah Jesus has to fulfill.

Jesus has not ruled an earthly kingdom yet, or fought the devil and his forces at Armageddon. The book of Revelation contains most of the items Jesus still has to fulfill.

 

[Bob S]

There's more than morality though that is presently applicable.

There are laws for judges, medical laws, the Feasts of the Lord are all about Yeshua, making them much more meaningful than the manmade ones.

Here's a list of the laws in categories: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

This website believes the laws are done away with, but his grouping of the laws in categories is outstanding, and easily reveals how good God's Torah is and how applicable it still is today.

Just remember the fact that all laws that are not concerned with morality given to Israel were for Israel only. No other nation or people were ever required to serve any day or do any other law found in Torah. Why anyone would feel a need to keep days that have no place in Christianity is beyond my thinking today. I say today because for forty years I thought I had to observe the weekly Sabbath because it is in the 10 commandments. Little did I realize that the 10 commandments were temporary laws (2Cor3:7-11) and were given only to Israel. Israel completely broke the covenant agreement and became a defunct nation. God told them IF you do, I will. They didn't and so since it was an IF covenant it no longer exists.

 

[Bob S]

Torah was very specific.

Sacrifices had to be done PRECISELY the prescribed way, in the precise place. The Temple is no longer standing, so the sacrificial laws can't ever be followed again.

If you were standing before a judge and gave him that answer for not observing every jot and tittle of Torah you wouldn't get off with ten lashes with a wet noodle. Not one jot or one tittle means that you are obligated to observe everything that pertains to you. Sacrifices pertain to you and dropping those laws are dropping jots and tittles. Stoning those of your congregation for breaking certain laws is another dropped jot or tittle.

It's interesting to note that 7 years after Jesus' once for all sacrifice, the temple was closed by the Romans.

I didn't know that.

I find that very interesting. God has provided a supernatural way to stop all sacrifices in 7 years, 7 being an important number in Hebrew. Then the temple was destroyed 30 years later.

Where do you find the 30 years. The Jews were under bondage to Rome. What is your excuse? Is there any reason that those of your persuasion cannot build a temple to sacrifice?

Of the 613, only approximately 200 apply to regular people, because the rest were specifically for Cohanin, Levites, etc.

Right, all the more reason to know that no one is under Torah. It cannot be kept without trampling on jots and tittles. Like I stated, Jesus used Heaven and Earth as a metaphor, it is not to be taken literally. Heaven will never pass away so according to your thinking Jesus will never fulfill what you think he has not yet done.

The lack of understanding of the 613 causes people to think they are not do-able, but Paul said his Torah keeping was perfect: Philippians 3:6.

So, you are taking that verse as meaning Paul was perfect. Then why did Jesus have to die for Paul? Could Paul have been the one that could stone the woman at the well? Was he really without sin? Is your Torah keeping without any sinning. Do you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure, thinking your own thoughts on the holy days? The fact is that man is so far from being perfect and God, of course, knows this. That is why Jesus came, man could not keep God's perfect law, so the law became the law of death.
Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

2 Corinthians 3:7
[ The Greater Glory of the New Covenant ] Now if the ministry that brought death (10 commandments), which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory (temporary) though it was,

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

everything that pertains to you.

faux pas ?
We all (all Ecclesia) pray
"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"

 

[Truthfrees]

Torah was not given for salvation. If that is why one keeps Torah, he will fall short.

If I keep Torah because I love God and believe God's instructions are the best instructions ever, I can easily and joyfully keep it.

Anything I do for love is easy.

Anything done out of obligation/duty/to earn salvation will become instantly impossible.

To understand Jewish/Christian History, read: Jews God History - Max Dimont

To understand the 5 W's of temple sacrifices, read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban

According to the Hebrew Bible, after the building of Solomon's Temple, sacrifices were only to be carried out there.[7] After the Temple was destroyed, sacrifices was resumed when the Second Temple was built until it was also destroyed in 70 CE. After the destruction of the Second Temple sacrifices were prohibited because there was no longer a Temple, the only place allowed by halakha for sacrifices.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are erroneously thinking the Torah was given for salvation.

Maybe not.
Somewhere in TORAH,
YHWH tells HIS PEOPLE
WHY HE gave them TORAH
and
NOT the pagan nations of the world
at the time who were without YHWH
and without hope in the world.

 

[Truthfrees]

Just remember the fact that all laws that are not concerned with morality given to Israel were for Israel only. No other nation or people were ever required to serve any day or do any other law found in Torah. Why anyone would feel a need to keep days that have no place in Christianity is beyond my thinking today. I say today because for forty years I thought I had to observe the weekly Sabbath because it is in the 10 commandments. Little did I realize that the 10 commandments were temporary laws (2Cor3:7-11) and were given only to Israel. Israel completely broke the covenant agreement and became a defunct nation. God told them IF you do, I will. They didn't and so since it was an IF covenant it no longer exists.

I used to think as you do, until I saw what Jesus said about Torah.

I started researching and learning Torah to keep it, and it has been the most awesome experience.

If you continue to believe as you do, no problem.

But I'm glad I now follow Torah.

It has changed my life.

And remember Jesus is the Living Torah.

Any word that comes from the mouth of God is awesome.

The Jews did not suffer the Black plague and other tragedies because they follow the Torah about how to deal with dead bodies, how to wash hands in running water, how to get rid of waste properly, etc.

Most of our civil and criminal and medical laws are based on Torah.

If you can't see how good Torah is that's ok.

But why would you react to those of us who find out for ourselves that keeping Torah is a blessing?

What does it matter to you if we keep Torah?

If it's impossible for you and possible for us, why does it bother you what we do?

You think scripture says to void Torah.

Jesus and Paul told us to keep Torah. Matthew 5:17-19, Romans 3:31

 

[Bob S]

I used to think as you do, until I saw what Jesus said about Torah.

I started researching and learning Torah to keep it, and it has been the most awesome experience.

Thank the Great Lord you are free to worship as you wish. I pray your law keeping helps you grow in grace. I have gleaned from your posts that you are a very kind person. Something is working.

If you continue to believe as you do, no problem.

Some would not be so generous.

But I'm glad I now follow Torah.

The problem is that Jesus came and gave Christians a new covenant to live by and some will not recognize the fact. The covenant I live by is, as you know, the law of love. It is and has been me extreme pleasure to serve others and by doing this simple act I am serving Jesus in fulness.

It has changed my life.

I am sure it has and don't get me wrong I am happy for you. Before you found your present faith it must have been a struggle. Jersus has changed my life. What more could I ask. When I was serving the old covenant laws I always came up short of how God wanted the Israelites to observe His laws. If I were to go back serving those laws I still would fall short like I did before. Since I don't haave to serve those laws I don't fall short. I fall short of the new covenant laws, I don't need a bunch of rules that do not pertain to me to have to contend.

And remember Jesus is the Living Torah.

He is?

Any word that comes from the mouth of God is awesome.

It is?

The Jews did not suffer the Black plague and other tragedies because they follow the Torah about how to deal with dead bodies, how to wash hands in running water, how to get rid of waste properly, etc.

They didn't? How do you know? How do you know God didn't instill in gentiles the same reasoning and they just didn't follow His teachings?

Most of our civil and criminal and medical laws are based on Torah.

Stoning, casting people out of society and leaving them in deplorable conditions were how Israel observed Torah. Criminal justice was not all that great and certainly is not practiced today. Women were treated almost like cattle. They used the laws to aid in trumped up charges against others. There were no juries to hear evidence. If two claimed someone did something wrong it was enough to have the assumed guilty one stoned. Do you really want to brag about the laws found in Torah?

If you can't see how good Torah is that's ok.

If Torah was so good then why was it replaced with the new and better covenant? 6 But Christ has a more perfect work. He is the One Who goes between God and man in this new and better way. The New Way of Worship promises better things. 7 If the Old Way of Worship had been perfect, there would have been no need for another one. 8 God was not happy how the people lived by the Old Way of Worship. He said, “The day will come when I will make a New Way of Worship for the Jews and those of the family group of Judah. 9 The New Way of Worship will not be like the Old Way of Worship I gave to their early fathers. That was when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. But they did not follow the Old Way of Worship. And so I turned away from them. Heb 8:6-9

But why would you react to those of us who find out for ourselves that keeping Torah is a blessing?

I guess it is the same reason you are here presenting your beliefs. One of us is wrong. I have presented my case from scripture. Rom 3:31 and Matt 5:16,17 are not telling us to keep Torah. Matt was telling the Jews to observe it until H finished His work on Earth. Romans is telling us that the the law is important. It does not tell us we are to keep Torah. Paul clarified what the purpose of the law is for Christians. It is found in Gal 3:23 Before it was possible to be saved from the punishment of sin by putting our trust in Christ, we were held under the Law. It was as if we were being kept in prison. We were kept this way until Christ came. 24 The Law was used to lead us to Christ. It was our teacher,

What does it matter to you if we keep Torah?

Good question. I believe that many great people have been led astray by others. Feel good religions have been spreading like wildfire and I believe I have a responsibility from the great commission to help others to see the true Gospel of Jesus, the new covenant of love and Grace. I present the Gospel and then petition the Holy Spirit to work on the hearts of those who are willing to read what has been placed on my heart.

If it's impossible for you and possible for us, why does it bother you what we do?

If you had the opportunity to witness to a Muslim would you turn is down? Are you here just to improve your writing skills?

You think scripture says to void Torah.

Absolutely not. We can and do glean much from the past. When God gives us a BETTER WAY SHOULD WE TURN IT DOWN FOR A SYSTEM THAT COULD NOT BE KEPT, A SYSTEM THAT COULD ONLY CONDEMN NOT SAVE? Cor 3:7-11

I notice your handle is Truthfrees. I believe that with all my heart. The problem is that observing the old covenant didn't free anyone. Abraham didn't have the Torah yet he was freed. Had observing Torah freed man then Jesus would have come without purpose. Maybe going through the motions of observing days, wearing certain clothes and all the other requirements of Torah make people feel good, those actions have nothing to do with salvation. As I wrote above it is what we do for the least of those that is pleasing to God. When we do good works for others we are doing if to God. We are wiping away the tears He is shedding for His creation.[/QUOTE]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Y'SHUA is PERFECT, no flaw, no sin, no spot, no wrinkle, no shadow.
HE PERFECTLY KEEPS TORAH.
HIS SHEEP FOLLOW HIM,
and HEAR HIS VOICE,
and DO as HE SAYS,
as ALWAYS.
No change in this. No surprise here. (Except for those in Revelation and elsewhere who are judged for being distant from TORAH).

 

[Truthfrees]

Knowing and accepting Jesus is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me.

God's grace (unmerited mercy/favor/ability) has changed my life immensely for the better.

I saw that Sabbath keeping was instructed BEFORE the Mosaic Covenant.

I saw the scientific wisdom in eating Biblically.

I saw the scientific, political, medical, social, economic, moral, spiritual wisdom in keeping Torah.

All I can say is grace/faith Torah observance is awesome!

Jesus is first, last, and everything in between.

Torah observance involves mostly mitzvot. These are all the good deeds found in the NT.

EDIT
I happen to be a happy joyful Torah keeper. My family and I have had wonderful experiences.

EG. I saw that Sabbath keeping was instructed BEFORE the Mosaic Covenant.
I knew Sabbath keepers who had amazing experiences.
I asked Jesus about it, and when I was sure/convinced it was God's will for me, I started resting and worshipping God from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. No work for me or my family. We rest and worship together.
IMMEDIATELY many little things in my life straightened out! I was astounded! How could so many little things change simply because my family and I worshipped and rested on the Biblical Sabbath.