FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS OR THE WORD OF GOD?

[Leaf473]

I guess sometimes a dictionary is the best way to answer poor comprehension of scripture...

Fulfill means

"to carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected."​

Jesus was prophesied to come and die for our sins...an act of redemption. He achieved that task and we all know he believed he completed that task because he cried out..."it is finished'

Now one could argue until they're blue in the face about the currency of the law. The answer lies in some simple moral truths..one of which is, if I murder someone I think I'm likely to get at least 15-20 years! It would appear that the law is most definately still used to define sin.

Hi AdamjEdgar,

On a thread like this people talk mostly about the ten commandments. One person I asked on these forums said that this was because people have to agree with the ten commandments before it makes sense to talk to them about the rest of the laws.

Do you think that too?

The reason I'm asking is that it looks to me like the theology based just on the 10 doesn't work when we look at the rest of the laws.

For example this law from Leviticus 19
You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed.

Just looking at the law, I can't see any reason to think that wouldn't be a moral law. But most people would say that we can mix two kinds of seed in a field and still love God and our neighbor. So it looks to me like that theology doesn't work.

So I'm trying to figure out how people deal with this in their minds.

Looking forward to an informative discussion!

 

[Leaf473]

To bring it around to the thread topic, when we plant two kinds of seed in the same field, are we following the traditions of man or is there something in the word of God that says it's okay?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi P_UK since you posted this same post in another thread I thought to post this response for you here as well with context added in as I thought it might be helpful to the discussion here.

Jesus did fulfil the law, and all is fulfilled by Jesus laying His life down, which is love fulfiling the law, and not the works of the law which are not faith ( they are Pharisee)..

Indeed Jesus did fulfill the law. He perfectly obeyed the law as our example and all the prophetic laws for remission of sins that pointed to him as the promised Messiah are fulfilled in Him. Jesus however did not fulfill the law so that we are now free to break the law or that the law is now abolished or destroyed. That is a teachings of lawlessness (without law) that teaching is not biblical and goes against the scriptures and the very words of Jesus where he says do not think I have come to destroy the law which are His very first words in this passage *Matthew 5:17-20.

According to the scriptures Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out (thoughts and feelings; the mind or heart) quoting Matthew 5:17-32 in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil begins in the heart *Genesis 6:5 which was the reason mankind was destroyed the first time in the flood *Genesis 6:7-13. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart Jesus says is what defile a man *Matthew15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28. So who can be saved?

Jesus knows us that naturally we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. This is why we need to be born again in the Spirit by faith to love God and keep his commandments *1 John 3:6-9. Jesus magnified the law to the inside out to show us that we are all sinners *Romans 3:9-10 in need of a Savior but many do not know the meaning of these scriptures *Matthew 9:12-13. This is the new covenant promise of God’s salvation in those who believe his Word and why we need to be born again through faith *1 John 5:3-4 to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10; John 8:32-36; James 2:10-11; 1 John 2:3-4.

If we are not born again into God’s new covenant promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 24:13.

True righteousness only comes from love because love is the fulfilling of God's law and the very expression of what love is as obedience to God's law from the heart *Romans 13:8-10. He that does not love does not know God for God is love * 1 John 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:3 and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN *John 3:3-7 in to walk in the Spirit *Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16 under Gods new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 to love we will not enter God’s Kingdom *John 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the inside out which is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5.

All those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11; Romans 3:19-20. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods’ Word and reject it according to the scriptures will not enter into God's kingdom because they reject the gift of God’s dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God’s grace *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Romans 6:23.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments or the 613 in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Love establishes God's law in those who believe and follow God's Word (Romans 8:1-4). Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is simply the fruit of love because salvation has already been provided through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:15; John 15:10-12; John 14:21; Matthew 22:26-40. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. You cannot separate faith and works according to the scriptures just the same as you cannot separate love and law as obedience is the fruit of faith in God's Word which is how love to God and man is expressed.

This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 13:8-10 and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments. and on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) according to the sculptures. Let's now look at the scripture contexts you have not provided and the Greek for the scriptures you provide here...

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Lets' add the full context here...

Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED (G4137 — πληρόω; to carry into effect) THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, IT IS BRIEFLY SUMMED UP IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING (G4138 — πλήρωμα; keeping) OF THE LAW.

So we are clear about this and there is no misunderstandings what do you mean by "fulfilled" and "fulfilling"? I ask because some people try to teach that love abolishes the need to be obedient to Gods' law which is a teaching of lawlessness (without law) which I believe is a false teachings that is against the scriptures. The Greek word used for "fulfilled" in Romans 13:8 for example is G4137 — πληρόω and means "to carry into effect" or bring to realization; to perform or to execute; to accomplish or bring to pass or to cause Gods' will as known in the law to be obeyed. The Greek word used here for "fulfilling" for example in Romans 13:10 is G4138 — πλήρωμα and means "present tense keeping or doing."

So if we add the context back into the discussion that you left out as shown above you will see that Paul is showing that love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. Love is not expressed in disobedience or breaking Gods' law as Paul is saying he that loves another has fulfilled the law or is carrying the law into effect by obeying the law. This is made clearer in Hebrews 13:9 when Paul continues and says "FOR THIS" that is "you shall not commit adultery..... and continues quoting all those commandments from Gods' 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our fellow man while in Hebrews 13:10 Paul sums up obedience to these commandments as "thou shall love your neighbor as yourself" and love is the keeping (doing) of the law.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Faith does not abolish God's law according to the scriptures it "establishes" Gods' law as shown in Romans 13:8-10 above in the previous section. If you read the scriptures context you left out it says in Romans 3:31 DO WE THEN ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW. The Greek word used here in Romans 3:31 for "establish" is G2476 - ἵστημι and means to continue; establish; hold up. This is in contrast to not abolishing or destroying the law which Paul says we are not to do.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Let's do the same again by adding the context your leaving out back in...

ROMANS 8:1-4
[1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Note: this is because those who walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh...
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. The Greek word for "flesh" here is G4561 — σάρξ and means the carnal mind or sinful human nature which is the context of Romans 6 and Romans 7.

[2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

Note: The law of sin and death is the carnal mind or sinful human nature stopping us from obeying God's law which is why we need to be born again and die to the old man *Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:18-24; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9.

[3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH (Carnal mind) BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT (Word of God)

Note: once again here it is saying that it is the law of sin and death of the carnal mind (flesh) which is condemned by Jesus coming that the righteousness (obedience) of the law might be "fulfilled" that is the same Greek Word used here as in Romans 13:8 G4137 — πληρόω and means "to carry into effect" or bring to realization; to perform or to execute; to accomplish or bring to pass or to cause Gods' will as known in the law to be obeyed. Where? IN US who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind) but after the Spirit (Word of God - John 6:63). This links directly to Galatians 5:16 as shown earlier; This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH.

..............

As shown above love does not abolish God's law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law and obeys Gods' from the heart. This is in contrast to someone obeying God's law externally without love like the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus calls dead mans bones and is why Jesus says unless we are born again we can in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7. This is because those who are born again into Gods new covenant promise to love *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 through the faith in God's Word by the Spirit to not practice sin *1 John 3:4-9.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[prophecy_uk]

I guess sometimes a dictionary is the best way to answer poor comprehension of scripture...

Fulfill means

"to carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected."​

Jesus was prophesied to come and die for our sins...an act of redemption. He achieved that task and we all know he believed he completed that task because he cried out..."it is finished'

Now one could argue until they're blue in the face about the currency of the law. The answer lies in some simple moral truths..one of which is, if I murder someone I think I'm likely to get at least 15-20 years! It would appear that the law is most definately still used to define sin.

Sin is what is not of faith, the law is then sin as said even directly..



Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Freth]

What's not to understand about the law?

Jesus, in the Revelation of Jesus Christ specifically gave a number of the Ten Commandments at the tail end of the book.

Revelation 22:11-16

Probation will close.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
​

Just reward/just punishment.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
​

Jesus asserts His authority before making a very sobering statement.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
​

Keep the commandments of God, that you may have right to the tree of life and enter the city.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
​

For without are sinners. Jesus lists both abominations and many of the Ten Commandments.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

• Dogs: the godless, the impure, those of low moral character.
• Sorcerers: with their intoxicating drugs, and magic arts.
• Whoremongers: the perverted, the molesters, and the adulterers.
• Murderers
• Idolators
• Liars

5 of the Ten Commandments are listed here.

• Have no other gods.
• Do not worship idols.
  
• Do not commit adultery.
• Do not murder.
• Do not lie.

The rest can be implied by the language used.

• Do not take the Lord's name in vain.
• Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
• Honor your mother and father.
• Do not covet.
• Do not steal.

Jesus asserts His authority again!

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
​

What's the takeaway?

• There will come a time when probation closes and there is no more remission for sin. You will be locked into your choice. Obedience or disobedience.
  
• Jesus surrounds a final call to obedience with assertions of His ultimate authority, giving utmost emphasis on His words.
• Every sin mentioned in the Bible is summarized in this one powerful statement. The Ten Commandments are clearly present here, as are the abominations and anything godless, impure and of low character (dogs).

There is no debate to be had.

 

[prophecy_uk]

What's not to understand about the law?

Jesus, in the Revelation of Jesus Christ specifically gave a number of the Ten Commandments at the tail end of the book.

Revelation 22:11-16

Probation will close.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
​

Just reward/just punishment.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

Jesus asserts His authority before making a very sobering statement.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

Keep the commandments of God, that you may have right to the tree of life and enter the city.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

For without are sinners. Jesus lists both abominations and many of the Ten Commandments.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

• Dogs: the godless, the impure, those of low moral character.
• Sorcerers: with their intoxicating drugs, and magic arts.
• Whoremongers: the perverted, the molesters, and the adulterers.
• Murderers
• Idolators
• Liars

5 of the Ten Commandments are listed here.

• Have no other gods.
• Do not worship idols.
  
• Do not commit adultery.
• Do not murder.
• Do not lie.

The rest can be implied by the language used.
​

​

The commandments to be kept are what hurts others, and pleases ourselves.


Jesus pleased not Himself..


Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.


5 of the commandments and even 9, are told in the whole new testament, that confirms that all we do to please ourselves, is against the law of Christ.



If you are not dishonest or afraid of my words, then simply tell us, do you keep sabbath for pleasing yourself, or for others, do you love yourself in your sabbath keeping, or love others by it?



2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Freth: "There is no debate to be had."




Why are you debating then, you can keep your sabbath, it does not bother me, and I will keep sabbath every day Holy to the Lord, if I do not offend you, we are equal, if I do, you are the debater ( but I will prove you as false for any time you say I sin by not keeping sabbath your way on your day)..


Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In regards to the OP and getting back on topic, how does Matthew 15:2-9 relate to or link into God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 of Gods 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4? What is the warning given here to those who choose to knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that brake the commandments of God and how does this all relate to John 4:23-24?

God bless

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Freth: "There is no debate to be had."
Why are you debating then, you can keep your sabbath, it does not bother me, and I will keep sabbath every day Holy to the Lord, if I do not offend you, we are equal, if I do, you are the debater ( but I will prove you as false for any time you say I sin by not keeping sabbath your way on your day)..

The Sabbath is not everyday according to the scriptures *see Exodus 20:8-11. According to the scriptures Sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4; see also Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and according to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. Jesus says those who follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God in Matthew 15:2-9 are not worshiping God so who should we believe and follow; God or man? (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

In regards to the OP and getting back on topic, how does Matthew 15:2-9 relate to or link into God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 of Gods 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4? What is the warning given here to those who choose to knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that brake the commandments of God and how does this all relate to John 4:23-24?

God bless

Hi LoveGodsWord,

I hope you are doing well.

Starting with Matthew 15:2-9, it could relate this way:
If moving the common day of worship from the seventh day to the first day was a man-made tradition, then it would be a good parallel with the Pharisees and scribes transgressing the commandment of God with a man-made tradition.

One possible disruption to that parallel is that God may have been guiding the early church in a way or to a degree that he was not guiding the Pharisees and scribes.

So, possibly, the move from the seventh day to the first day was not a man-made tradition.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi LoveGodsWord,

I hope you are doing well.

Starting with Matthew 15:2-9, it could relate this way:
If moving the common day of worship from the seventh day to the first day was a man-made tradition, then it would be a good parallel with the Pharisees and scribes transgressing the commandment of God with a man-made tradition.

One possible disruption to that parallel is that God may have been guiding the early church in a way or to a degree that he was not guiding the Pharisees and scribes.

So, possibly, the move from the seventh day to the first day was not a man-made tradition.

The problem here is that there is no scripture in support of your proposed move of the Sabbath commandment to Sunday. There is not a single scripture that says that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from Gods' Word to break the commandment of God applicable in the words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9. You think if what you are saying was a possibility then perhaps Jesus may have said something to His disciples but no. All we see in the new testament is Jesus and the disciples keeping the Sabbath even after the death and resurrection of Jesus and Jesus knowing the future seeing that the disciples would be continuing to keep the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection as shown in Matthew 24:20. Also, I do not see that there would have been any point in Jesus teaching the disciples how to correctly keep the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12; Mark 2:27-28 if it was not to be continued do you?. There is so much more I can post here and scripture to share but I think I will keep this one short.

Take Care.

 

[prophecy_uk]

The Sabbath is not everyday according to the scriptures *see Exodus 20:8-11. According to the scriptures Sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4; see also Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and according to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. Jesus says those who follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God in Matthew 15:2-9 are not worshiping God so who should we believe and follow; God or man? (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take Care.

Exodus has been exited, the sabbath was taught to do good like any other day, working the same as God works..




John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.




God did rest on one sabbath to show how that day, all was created, and a time to rest God having completed for then, creation.





Then a new thing is created, shall you know it..




Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.






Speaking of all new, did you know all old is passed away, your teaching, law, and sabbath, otherwise how is all new, this is what is created new, the new creation ( while this is being created there is labouring and not resting, then the rest comes as Jesus entered His glorious rest of eternal glory)..





Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.




Now that I understand things a bit clearer and more whole myself, I am ready to discuss all of this with you right now, LoveGodsword, should you have anything to say to me.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The Sabbath is not everyday according to the scriptures *see Exodus 20:8-11. According to the scriptures Sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4; see also Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and according to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. Jesus says those who follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God in Matthew 15:2-9 are not worshiping God so who should we believe and follow; God or man? (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Your response here...

Exodus has been exited, the sabbath was taught to do good like any other day, working the same as God works..
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. God did rest on one sabbath to show how that day, all was created, and a time to rest God having completed for then, creation. Then a new thing is created, shall you know it.. Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man. Speaking of all new, did you know all old is passed away, your teaching, law, and sabbath, otherwise how is all new, this is what is created new, the new creation ( while this is being created there is labouring and not resting, then the rest comes as Jesus entered His glorious rest of eternal glory)..Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now that I understand things a bit clearer and more whole myself, I am ready to discuss all of this with you right now, LoveGodsword, should you have anything to say to me.

I am sorry dear friend but I have no idea what your talking about here or how your post here responds to or relates to anything in the post you are quoting from.

Take Care.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Your response here...

I am sorry dear friend but I have no idea what your talking about here or how your post here responds to or relates to anything in the post you are quoting from.

Take Care.

I made a new thread for everybody to see in all detail, what the rest and refreshing is, hope you enjoy. It is of particular use for anyone struggling to understand the patterns of the earthly, against the pattern of the Heavenly.

 

[Leaf473]

The problem here is that there is no scripture in support of your proposed move of the Sabbath commandment to Sunday. There is not a single scripture that says that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from Gods' Word to break the commandment of God applicable in the words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9. You think if what you are saying was a possibility then perhaps Jesus may have said something to His disciples but no. All we see in the new testament is Jesus and the disciples keeping the Sabbath even after the death and resurrection of Jesus and Jesus knowing the future seeing that the disciples would be continuing to keep the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection as shown in Matthew 24:20. Also, I do not see that there would have been any point in Jesus teaching the disciples how to correctly keep the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12; Mark 2:27-28 if it was not to be continued do you?. There is so much more I can post here and scripture to share but I think I will keep this one short.

Take Care.

One possible reason for Jesus teaching the disciples how to keep the Sabbath correctly is to help prepare their minds for the idea that God was moving in a way that was different from what the Pharisees and scribes had been presenting for years.

As I understand the situation, at that point in time most people considered the scribes and Pharisees to be the top notch God-followers.

When Paul travels to Jerusalem towards the end of the book of Acts, he is told that there are many brothers there who are zealous for the law. I assume that would be the entire law, the temple was still standing.

It sometimes takes time for the old wineskins to be discarded and new ones procured, imo.

I agree there is no scripture changing the primary day of worship from the 7th to the 1st. It's definitely a tradition.

But is it a man-made tradition, or a God-guided tradition?

Was God guiding the early church at all? I used to assume that he wasn't, once the last apostle died. But then I was introduced to the idea that the church was working out which books were scripture long after that last apostle. If God was guiding the church in figuring out what was scripture, it doesn't seem like too big of a stretch to say that he was guiding the church in other things, as well.

 

[prophecy_uk]

God guided Israel, into the wilderness then to die in the wilderness.

God gave them as examples, being cut off through unbelief, how that is what counts with God, otherwise all perish before Him.

Now it is the end, I am testifying for a purpose, so the end comes, and the end will come with no joy, for anyone who brings no joy to anyone but themselves, as God will judge without mercy to the ones who show no mercy.


The church was guided enough to keep the scriptures intact, as God said that already, God makes sure that nothing can be added to what God does, or taken from it, and God does it that men should fear before Him.

For the church to be guided in faithfulness, until now, it would not explain how there is a falling away now, but that faithfulness failed, explains how none was left, but the scriptures to testify how man has no excuse, even though man thinks he can blame God. All is told and testified, beginning from Adam, nobody ever cared, that did not and has not changed, all is rejected for the purpose of man to be rejected completely too, next.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

One possible reason for Jesus teaching the disciples how to keep the Sabbath correctly is to help prepare their minds for the idea that God was moving in a way that was different from what the Pharisees and scribes had been presenting for years.

As I understand the situation, at that point in time most people considered the scribes and Pharisees to be the top notch God-followers.

When Paul travels to Jerusalem towards the end of the book of Acts, he is told that there are many brothers there who are zealous for the law. I assume that would be the entire law, the temple was still standing.

It sometimes takes time for the old wineskins to be discarded and new ones procured, imo.

I agree there is no scripture changing the primary day of worship from the 7th to the 1st. It's definitely a tradition.

But is it a man-made tradition, or a God-guided tradition?

Was God guiding the early church at all? I used to assume that he wasn't, once the last apostle died. But then I was introduced to the idea that the church was working out which books were scripture long after that last apostle. If God was guiding the church in figuring out what was scripture, it doesn't seem like too big of a stretch to say that he was guiding the church in other things, as well.

All I know is what the scriptures teach and if you consider Matthew 15:2-9 this is a warning not to follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God because doing so we are not worshiping God according to the very Words of Jesus. The question remains who should we believe and follow God or man? I know who I believe and follow according to the scriptures when I read scripture like *Romans 3:4 or Acts of the Apostles 5:29. According to the scripture we ought to believe and follow the Words of God over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word to break His commandments.

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

All I know is what the scriptures teach and if you consider Matthew 15:2-9 this is a warning not to follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God because doing so we are not worshiping God according to the very Words of Jesus. The question remains who should we believe and follow God or man? I know who I believe and follow according to the scriptures when I read scripture like *Romans 3:4 or Acts of the Apostles 5:29. According to the scripture we ought to believe and follow the Words of God over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word to break His commandments.

Take Care.

Were any of the traditions of the early church guided by God?

If not, then it's up to us as individuals to decide what is scripture and what is not.

But if the early church was guided by God at least in some way, then maybe, just maybe, their interpretation of the scriptures is the correct one even if it is different from our interpretation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Were any of the traditions of the early church guided by God? If not, then it's up to us as individuals to decide what is scripture and what is not. But if the early church was guided by God at least in some way, then maybe, just maybe, their interpretation of the scriptures is the correct one even if it is different from our interpretation.

Are you trying to argue that God guided the early Church to do the opposite of what God's Word says? If God's Word says one thing and we do the opposite who is guiding us? (1 John 2:3-4). Show me a single scripture in Gods' Word that says Gods' 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday of the first day of the week as a holy day of rest? - There is none. So who should we believe and follow; God or man? According to Jesus if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are now worshiping God in Matthew 15:2-9. The testing question is coming to all of us who should we believe and follow God or man (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). God's sheep will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and follow according to Jesus are now His sheep *John 10:26-27. The hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24.

 

[Leaf473]

Are you trying to argue that God guided the early Church to do the opposite of what God's Word says? If God's Word says one thing and we do the opposite who is guiding us? (1 John 2:3-4). Show me a single scripture in Gods' Word that says Gods' 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday of the first day of the week as a holy day of rest? - There is none. So who should we believe and follow; God or man? According to Jesus if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are now worshiping God in Matthew 15:2-9. The testing question is coming to all of us who should we believe and follow God or man (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). God's sheep will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and follow according to Jesus are now His sheep *John 10:26-27. The hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24.

No, I'm not trying to argue that God guided the early Church to do the opposite of what God's Word says.

But the early church didn't think that worship on the seventh day was something required by God word, based on what I've read. They used a different interpretation.

Was God guiding them in that interpretation?

A simple question to help us understand each other better: Was God guiding the early church as it wrestled with the question of which books were God's word?