Focused thread on Col 2 and the seventh-day Bible Sabbath - how Adventists understand it

BobRyan

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Col 2 does not mention "appointed times" nor does it say "This is referring to all - appointed times" -- as we all know.

Rather the real-world Weekly-Sabbath-related problem that the NT identifies for the gentile Christians at Colossae is that

1. gentiles attend a weekly Sabbath service in the Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 synagogues "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4
2. and are there met by both non-Christian Jews and some Christian Jews who would no doubt notice the gentiles are not present for things like "festival or a new moon" and annual Sabbaths
3. Those are OT "shadows" as we see in Lev 23 that originate in animal sacrifices (Numbers 28)
4. - UNLIKE the weekly Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3, Ex 16, Ex 20:8-11 with no animal sacrifice and with gentiles present "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4

So the issue that "comes up" by those non-Christian Jews, and some Christian Jews - in those "every Sabbath" worship services is not "why are you here on the weekly Sabbath" - but rather "what about those other shadow holy days? Why do you not also attend them?".

And in fact that would be a question primarily from Christian Jews - not non-Christan Jews since the non-Christan Jews are used to gentiles being in the synagogues going back long before the birth of Christ.

Interesting that this "every Sabbath" attendance by believing Gentiles is a fact raised in the Acts 15 debate - a fact viewed as "The solution" to the problem raised by some Christian Jews who thought to ADD the doctrine that gentiles could not be saved unless circumcised.

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That is in addition to the Col 2 problem of "making stuff up" from pure imagination or over-zealous suggestions
 
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BobRyan

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But as Col 2:17-22 point out the problem is not "judging in regard to scripture" but is primarily about "making stuff up".

16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

=========================

The OT does not form the basis for "delighting in humility and the worship of the angels"
The OT does not form the basis for "the commandments and teachings of man "
The OT does not form the basis for "taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,"
All of which we find in Col 2

====================================
By contrast:
Eph 2 addresses the circumcision issue for gentiles - informing us that it was not an issue for non-Christian Jews - they called all gentiles "The uncircumcision" and had no problem with joint worship services with believing gentiles "every Sabbath". Their claim was never that gentiles could not be saved unless they got circumcised, rather they claimed the gentiles were second-class "god fearing" people of God - taking a back seat to Jews in the Synagogue context.

-- and no OT command declares gentiles must be circumcised to be saved.

In fact as we see in Eph 2 - for all those centuries it was a given that Jew vs gentile was a distinction stated in the terms --

11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

It is not until you get to presence of Christian Jews mixing with Christian Gentiles in the "Every Sabbath" services that this issue comes up - because Christian gentiles are outnumbering Christian Jews.
 
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BobRyan

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Acts 13 - gentiles in the synagogue wait until after the Jews leave on a given Sabbath then ask Paul to schedule "more Gospel preaching" - on "The NEXT Sabbath.

Acts 17:1-5 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching for gentiles and Jews

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" - gospel preaching for gentiles and Jews.

EVERY weekly worship service in the NT that is called the "Sabbath" is a reference to the 7th-day Sabbath of the Bible

Is 56:6-8 Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
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Gen 2:1-3 the 7th day Sabbath having no animal sacrifice "shadow" pointing to the death of Christ
Ex 16 - the 7th day Sabbath having no animal sacrifice "shadow" pointing to the death of Christ
Ex 20:8-11 - the 7th day Sabbath having no animal sacrifice "shadow" pointing to the death of Christ
Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth we have all mankind in worship service EVERY Sabbath without animal sacrifices
 
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tall73

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Apparently Bob was so averse to addressing the OT parallel texts to Colossians 2 in the thread below he had to make his own thread.

 
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tall73

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For those who just want a summary:

Colossians 2:16-17 says:

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a feast or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Adventists assert that the "sabbath" portion does not include the weekly sabbath, but only "yearly" sabbath such as the Day of Atonement, etc.

However, this listing is not something new, but is seen in a number of parallel Old Testament texts.

Here are some examples:

1 Chronicles 23:25 For David said, “The Lord God of Israel has given rest to His people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem forever”; 26 and also to the Levites, “They shall no longer carry the tabernacle, or any of the articles for its service.” 27 For by the last words of David the Levites were numbered from twenty years old and above; 28 because their duty was to help the sons of Aaron in the service of the house of the Lord, in the courts and in the chambers, in the purifying of all holy things and the work of the service of the house of God, 29 both with the showbread and the fine flour for the grain offering, with the unleavened cakes and what is baked in the pan, with what is mixed and with all kinds of measures and sizes; 30 to stand every morning to thank and praise the Lord, and likewise at evening; 31 and at every presentation of a burnt offering to the Lord on the Sabbaths and on the New Moons and on the set feasts, by number according to the ordinance governing them, regularly before the Lord; 32 and that they should attend to the needs of the tabernacle of meeting, the needs of the holy place, and the needs of the sons of Aaron their brethren in the work of the house of the Lord.

2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual showbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.

2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

2 Chronciles 31:2 And Hezekiah appointed the divisions of the priests and the Levites according to their divisions, each man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and peace offerings, to serve, to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the camp of the Lord. 3 The king also appointed a portion of his possessions[ for the burnt offerings: for the morning and evening burnt offerings, the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths and the New Moons and the set feasts, as it is written in the Law of the Lord.

Nehemiah 10:32 Also we made ordinances for ourselves, to exact from ourselves yearly one-third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: 33 for the showbread, for the regular grain offering, for the regular burnt offering of the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the set feasts; for the holy things, for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God.

Ezekiel 45:17 Then it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths, and at all the appointed seasons of the house of Israel. He shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.”

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons,Her Sabbaths—All her appointed times.

Additionally, a key longer passage spells out the appointed times and the sacrifices for each one, which is Numbers 28-29.

Most think the lists in 1 and 2 Chronicles and Nehemiah are largely referring to the long-form information spelled out in Numbers 28-29 regarding what offerings are to be made on the various appointed times. One of the listing texts specifies "according to the commandment of Moses," in an apparent allusion to Numbers 28-29.

The weekly sabbath is included in Numbers 28, and has a sacrifice associated with it.

Numbers 28:9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Therefore if some of the shorter listing passages are summations of Numbers 28-29 they would include the weekly sabbath.

In another of the summary lists in Ezekiel 45 we see that the weekly Sabbath is included. We can tell because the rest of the context spells out the elements, including reference to the weekly Sabbath:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.
The reference to six working days refers back to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20, and makes clear it is the weekly Sabbath.

Moreover, note the close parallel to Col. 2

"burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths"

You have food and drink offerings, which is likely the reference in Col. 2 to in regards to food and drink

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

So just as in Numbers 28-29, and the passages that summarize them, you have the weekly sabbath included, so in Ezekiel 45 the similar list includes the weekly Sabbath.

Paul is aware of this OT usage, and his listing of appointed times parallels these passages. Therefore, there is every reason to believe the weekly sabbath is included in his list.
 
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BobRyan

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Apparently Bob was so averse to addressing the OT parallel texts to Colossians 2 in the thread below he had to make his own thread.

some of the holy convocations in Lev 23 are not ALL of the holy convocations in Lev 23. You seem to struggle with that fact.
As your thread and this one both point out - the Jews were already meeting with gentiles "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 in the synagogues for worship (as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18) -

So the issue with "some" of the Christian Jews for those Christian Jews as not the "every Sabbath" meetings, but rather the Shadow appointed times listed in Lev 23.

I can keep posting that in both threads -- and you can keep saying the post does not exist -- if that is how you want to proceed.
 
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BobRyan

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For those who just want a summary:

Colossians 2:16-17 says:

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a feast or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
true
Adventists assert that the "sabbath" portion does not include the weekly sabbath, but only "yearly" sabbath such as the Day of Atonement, etc.
As noted in the OP of this thread and in fact in the first 3 posts of this thread -- not just in that other thread.

However, this listing is not something new,
The issue is not "is it something new"

The issue is can you spin a reference to SOME of the appointed times in Lev 23 to morph into "All appointed times have ended" ?
We all know you cannot.

And have pointed out the in the case of one class of the appointed times (the weekly Sabbaths) they are already meeting with those Jews, Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles every Sabbath without incident regarding the weekly Sabbath.

You keep sidestepping this details because it deflates your entire suggestion at that point.

Here are some examples:

1 Chronicles 23:25 For David said, “The Lord God of Israel has given rest to His people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem forever”; 26 and also to the Levites, “They shall no longer carry the tabernacle, or any of the articles for its service.”
A great example of NOT HAVING the context in Col 2 for gentile Christians who already meet with Jews "every Sabbath" but have issues with non-weely-Sabbath meetings since for them the animal sacrifices have ended at the cross.
2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual showbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.

Yeah - providing MORE examples of NOT having that Col 2 context for the Col 2 discussion - is not helping you.
2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.
yeah - providing MORE examples of NOT having that Col 2 context for the Col 2 discussion - is not helping you.
The animal sacrifices added for the weekly Sabbath in your example is NOT a case of the Gen 2:1-3, Ex 16, Ex 20:8-11 Is 66:23 weekly Sabbath given in animal sacrifice observance since we know that no such animal sacrifices are specified for the Sabbath there.

Rather -- like child birth where animal sacrifices were later added - it is "added" later. It is not the definition for the weekly Sabbath as we see in the examples above.

this point has been made repeatedly - why not respond to it??
So just as in Numbers 28-29, and the passages that summarize them, you have the weekly sabbath included
The weekly Sabbath is not being debated by the Col 2 gentiles since they already attend weekly and in the Acts 18:4 case it is "every Sabbath" attending to hear Paul give Gospel presentations "every Sabbath".

What is more -

Paul is aware of this OT usage, and his listing of appointed times parallels these passages. Therefore, there is every reason to believe the weekly sabbath is included in his list.
Only if you ignore the context given to us in the book of Acts regarding Paul, gentile Christians and "every Sabbath" Gospel preaching.
And only if you ignore the fact that was no "every Sabbath" problem between gentiles and Jews that already met "every Sabbath" in the synagogues... the issue was the yearly "shadow" appointed times - based in animal sacrifices that the Christian gentiles knew had ended at the cross.
 
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